1289 replies to this topic

[Clatter]

Do wonder what the actual costs are. Is the cost for repairs less than the cost of maintenance over time?

[GreenMachine]

Owner isn't interested in the long term, cash flow is king, tomorrow may not happen.

[AustinF1]

Fascinating info, AustinF1. It sounds like the only viable alternative to the current "make do and mend" policy is to excavate the whole area and build the circuit again from scratch. The probability of ever having access to the funds to do that seems extremely remote.

 

I do hope they put up your local taxes to do it, though. Nothing personal.

Do you mean that you hope they raise our taxes to pay for fixing COTA? If so, why should we pay for it? They screwed it up, by not paying for the maintenance in the first place, and we've given them more than $350 M so far, + lots of other benefits.

 

Anyway, from what I've been told, the only area that would need excavation is the track itself and probably some of the drainage system, not the surrounding area. Still a huge job, and expensive. 

Edited by AustinF1, 25 October 2023 - 20:41.

[AustinF1]

Cow belly is a huge problem in any construction. Any substrates need to be laid lower than but where is the natural water table? Do you know?

Don't know where it is. I'm 15 miles away and I've never seen or heard of anyone hitting the water table when digging. I've never heard of it in the Austin area. It's nothing to hit it after digging down just 3 or 4 feet in the Houston area though.

[AustinF1]

Do wonder what the actual costs are. Is the cost for repairs less than the cost of maintenance over time?

Can't say for sure, but it seems like a proper repair would be more expensive, and ...

 

 

Owner isn't interested in the long term, cash flow is king, tomorrow may not happen.

This. Epstein has never been one to put a penny more into COTA than he absolutely has to. I don't see him changing course now. I think he knows it won't go on forever, and will just continue in this vein. He needs to keep F1, because it blows all the other races they have completely out of the water in terms of money. They got $38 Million for F1 from the State subsidy last year alone. If he ever loses F1 and the F1 subsidy that comes with it, COTA is done. So he'll keep doing the absolute minimum they absolutely require him to do to keep them coming to town. And that's all. We're talking about a track owner who does low-bid, patchwork bs cosmetic repairs for several years on end when the track needs underlying drainage repairs (which is where these problems started, and which were a result of their own negligence), and then needs to be dug up and completely rebuilt. Zero chance he'd pay for an even more expensive solution.

 

The problem is, at least imho, that COTA will eventually reach a critical mass where it's not reasonably raceable without some major work. But who knows? We will see.

Edited by AustinF1, 31 October 2023 - 00:17.

[Brian60]

I see F1 is already looking to the future - get Vegas and Miami established and then should it be necessary, just drop COTA. I can't at the next round of talks a multi year contract being offered, maybe 2 years, to see if it improves. The problem COTA has is that there are many more markets crying out to hold a round, that if they stumped up enough cash, COTA would be history at the end of the current contract.

[AustinF1]

I see F1 is already looking to the future - get Vegas and Miami established and then should it be necessary, just drop COTA. I can't at the next round of talks a multi year contract being offered, maybe 2 years, to see if it improves. The problem COTA has is that there are many more markets crying out to hold a round, that if they stumped up enough cash, COTA would be history at the end of the current contract.

Yeah I've thought this too. COTA is golden as long as F1 wants them and the State will keep paying the annual subsidy (which it seems they are willing to do at least as long as Greg Abbott is governor). But if FOM decides it can make more money on the bottom line by going somewhere else, well, COTA is toast. 

Edited by AustinF1, 25 October 2023 - 15:53.

[milestone 11]

Don't know where it is. I'm 15 miles away and I've never seen or heard of anyone hitting the water table when digging. I've never heard of it in the Austin area. It's nothing to hit it after digging down just 3 or 4 feet in the Houston area though.

You seem to have very explicit information from the engineers. If, as I suspect, the drainage is what we refer to as a French drain. (On the outer edges of the excavations, under the level of the geotextile, a further trench would be dug, likely a metre wide and 2 metres deep and filled with large stone with a perforated pipe within), then maintenance is not really an issue. In theory it is not something that one ever has to maintain. The geotextile would prevent any fines from entering the pipe thereby keeping the pipe relatively clean. I obviously don't know what had been specified to avoid fines penetration upstream. It's only in one specific area isn't it?

Edited by milestone 11, 25 October 2023 - 15:54.

[AustinF1]

You seem to have very explicit information from the engineers. If, as I suspect, the drainage is what we refer to as a French drain. (On the outer edges of the excavations, under the level of the geotextile, a further trench would be dug, likely a metre wide and 2 metres deep and filled with large stone with a perforated pipe within), then maintenance is not really an issue. In theory it is not something that one ever has to maintain. The geotextile would prevent any fines from entering the pipe thereby keeping the pipe relatively clean. I obviously don't know what had been specified to avoid fines penetration upstream. It's only in one specific area isn't it?

I was told yesterday that it's an "ACO" drain system that's designed to shed water from the track very quickly in sheets, without puddling or streams developing on the track. I don't know what ACO means in this case. Not sure if the drainage problem is just in one place, but from what I've been told, the issue affects drainage all around the track, thus the bumps all over the circuit.

Edited by AustinF1, 31 October 2023 - 17:10.

[milestone 11]

I was told yesterday that it's an "ACO" drain system that's designed to shed water from the track very quickly in sheets, without puddling or streams developing on the track. I don't know what ACO means in this case. Not sure if the drainage problem is just in one place, but from what I've been told, the issue affects drainage all around the track, thus the bumps all over the circuit.

ACO is the name of the manufacturer. They have designed and manufacture drainage systems for every application for a very long time. Principally, an ACO system would have a drainage grille running parallel to either side of the track which itself would drain into the french drain. Are there grilles, I've never noticed them? It's probably likely, if not, that the ACO drainage system has been used in the french drain, once again, something that realistically would not be subject to maintenance.

From what you have said, it seems to me that the original specification was bang on.

Edited by milestone 11, 25 October 2023 - 16:16.

[AustinF1]

ACO is the name of the manufacturer. They have designed and manufacture drainage systems for every application for a very long time. Principally, an ACO system would have a drainage grille running parallel to either side of the track which itself would drain into the french drain. Are there grilles, I've never noticed them? It's probably likely, if not, that the ACO drainage system has been used in the french drain, once again, something that realistically would not be subject to maintenance.

I know the kind of parallel drain you're talking about, but I don't remember seeing any at COTA except in the paddock, and can't find any in photos. The cancellation of the maintenance is something I've heard repeatedly for years from different people involved in the project in different capacities, including yesterday from someone who was involved in the construction of the track and the drainage system in particular, but I'm not sure how the drain works or what the maintenance was supposed to consist of. 

[milestone 11]

I know the kind of parallel drain you're talking about, but I don't remember seeing any at COTA except in the paddock, and can't find any in photos. The cancellation of the maintenance is something I've heard repeatedly for years from different people involved in the project in different capacities, including yesterday from someone who was involved in the construction of the track and the drainage system in particular, but I'm not sure how the drain works or what the maintenance was supposed to consist of.

It would be interesting to know what the maintenance was and where this is. It could be something off circuit.

[Clatter]

Can't say for sure, but it seems like a proper repair would be more expensive, and ...

 

 

This. Epstein has never been one to put a penny more into COTA than he absolutely has to. I don't see him changing course now. I think he knows it won't go on forever, and will just continue in this vein. He needs to keep F1, because it blows all the other races they have completely out of the water in terms of money. $They got 38 Million for F1 from the State subsidy last year alone. If he ever loses F1 and the F1 subsidy that comes with it, COTA is done. So he'll keep doing the absolute minimum they absolutely require him to do to keep them coming to town. And that's all. We're talking about a track owner who does low-bid, patchwork bs cosmetic repairs for several years on end when the track needs underlying drainage repairs (which is where these problems started, and which were a result of their own negligence), and then needs to be dug up and completely rebuilt. Zero chance he'd pay for an even more expensive solution.

 

The problem is, at least imho, that COTA will eventually reach a critical mass where it's not reasonably raceable without some major work. But who knows? We will see.

 

Any idea what could happen to the site if/when the racing eventually ends? Would it just be left to rot?

[Stephane]

First question would be how many days a year is the circuit used ?

At Spa, there's almost everyday something from March to October. And also some events during the winter.

[pRy]

Something that bothered me on Sunday is a return to the "If he gets too close, he'll struggle with his tyres" commentary. I thought the whole point of the new rear wings etc was to get rid of that issue? Why do we seem to be back to square one?

[AustinF1]

Any idea what could happen to the site if/when the racing eventually ends? Would it just be left to rot?

No idea, really. Before Hellmund secured the F1 race rights and met him, Epstein was originally going to build a housing development in the flood plain. Yes, really. That's how he rolls. The local neighbors banded together and fought him on that and won. He's been saying for several years that they're building a major amusement park out there near T19-20 and that it's 'currently under construction'. The weird thing is that nobody can find where even a shovel-full of dirt has been turned or even so much as a surveyor's stake in the ground. It'll probably be right next to the resort hotel he's been talking about for 13 years now.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 October 2023 - 20:07.

[PayasYouRace]

Has anyone put forward moving pole position to the inside? Seems like P2 always gets a better start.

[AustinF1]

First question would be how many days a year is the circuit used ?

At Spa, there's almost everyday something from March to October. And also some events during the winter.

Yeah I really don't know. If you ask COTA, they say something like 300 days a year, which is nonsense, like any other number that ever comes from them, and they count any event in any of the buildings or parking lots out there as a day the track is in use. There are probably only10 or so track weekends a year, probably because they charge $70K a day to rent it (just checked and there are 11 one- or two-day track day events in 2024). There's SVRA for like a week, NASCAR, MotoGP, World Challenge, and WEC doing a one-off again next year.

Edited by AustinF1, 30 November 2023 - 06:06.

[AustinF1]

Has anyone put forward moving pole position to the inside? Seems like P2 always gets a better start.

Great question. My son and I talk about this every year. It seems like P1 is at a bit of a disadvantage, or at least that their advantage is significantly diminished, right?

[AustinF1]

Something that bothered me on Sunday is a return to the "If he gets too close, he'll struggle with his tyres" commentary. I thought the whole point of the new rear wings etc was to get rid of that issue? Why do we seem to be back to square one?

Because some teams didn't get the 2022 rules right and begged for a change that made following harder again, wasting the OWG's years of work. You can probably figure out who.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 October 2023 - 20:02.

[ARTGP]

Has anyone put forward moving pole position to the inside? Seems like P2 always gets a better start.

 

It's a philosophical discussion. Some circuits favor pole better than others, but should it always be that way? Maybe the variety is better for the sport. 

Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2023 - 20:23.

[AustinF1]

I don't necessarily like it, but I know why they did it that way. With the wide entry and much narrower exit of T1, it's a mistake/action generator. The wide entry was designed to entice optimistic moves up the inside, with action on the exit.If you put P1 on the inside, it reduces the chances of that kind of move on L1T1.

[Widefoot2]

Do you mean that you hope they raise our taxes to pay for fixing COTA? If so, why should we pay for it? They screwed it up, by not paying for the maintenance in the first place, and we've given them more than $350 M so far, + lots of other benefits.

 

Anyway, from what I've been told, the only area that would need excavation is the track itself and probably some of the drainage system, not the surrounding area. Still a huge job, and expensive. 

 

Pretty sure (to 99.99%) this was intended as a joke by Sterzo.  Or perhaps he forgot that America was basically founded on a tax revolt, so we're particularly sensitive to such talk... 

[AustinF1]

Pretty sure (to 99.99%) this was intended as a joke by Sterzo.  Or perhaps he forgot that America was basically founded on a tax revolt, so we're particularly sensitive to such talk... 

Haha yeah that's what I'm thinking too. Just wanted to make sure.

[ARTGP]

Bobby can go to Wells Fargo like everybody else. 

[loki]

Any idea what could happen to the site if/when the racing eventually ends? Would it just be left to rot?

The concert venue is the full time money maker out there.  Austin didn’t have a venue that size prior to the track.  As a result many of the summer tours bypassed Austin for the lack of not having a large outdoor venue.  Without the tax rebate the race would be a tremendous money loser.  I think that’s the case for most all F1 races that aren’t government subsidized.

[PayasYouRace]

It's a philosophical discussion. Some circuits favor pole better than others, but should it always be that way? Maybe the variety is better for the sport.

The location of pole position is meant to confer the pole sitter with the best chance of leading into the first corner. It’s the very idea behind it, and part of the reward of qualifying fastest.

Drivers in the past, mentioning no names, have thrown epic strops about pole position being on the disadvantaged side. Even further back, the pole sitter was given the privilege of choosing which side to start on. Actually that’s an old school F1 thing I’d like to see brought back.

It’s weird that at COTA, where the racing line is fully along the right, that the left side gets better starts. Usually that would be the “dirty side”.

[DW46]

The location of pole position is meant to confer the pole sitter with the best chance of leading into the first corner. It’s the very idea behind it, and part of the reward of qualifying fastest.

Drivers in the past, mentioning no names, have thrown epic strops about pole position being on the disadvantaged side. Even further back, the pole sitter was given the privilege of choosing which side to start on. Actually that’s an old school F1 thing I’d like to see brought back.

It’s weird that at COTA, where the racing line is fully along the right, that the left side gets better starts. Usually that would be the “dirty side”.

I like the pole sitter picking the side.

[JimmyClark]

The location of pole position is meant to confer the pole sitter with the best chance of leading into the first corner. It’s the very idea behind it, and part of the reward of qualifying fastest.

Drivers in the past, mentioning no names, have thrown epic strops about pole position being on the disadvantaged side. Even further back, the pole sitter was given the privilege of choosing which side to start on. Actually that’s an old school F1 thing I’d like to see brought back.

It’s weird that at COTA, where the racing line is fully along the right, that the left side gets better starts. Usually that would be the “dirty side”.

I remember when Jean Todt, at Indy 2000, asked the circuit owners to sandblast the bricks on the start line so the Ferrari did not get affected at the start. They hurriedly shifted the grid back, horrified at the thought...

[AustinF1]

So ...

 

COTA chairman: If there are parts to the F1 track that need to be fixed, we'll do it   ...   https://www.statesma...in/71318358007/

 

First off, I love how he says "IF"  the track needs fixing, as if there's some doubt. He's said he'd fix it many times before. You've all seen the results of those 'fixes'. 

 

Then there's this, where they try to make the case that COTA 'only' gets $19M from the state (which isn't true), so COTA shouldn't be expected to spend the money needed to fix the circuit. The author says there that ...

Circuit of the Americas draws $19 million from the state big events fund to help stage the USGP. Gov. Greg Abbott recently cut COTA's take from roughly $25 million.

None of that is even close to the truth. COTA received about $38 Million from the State of Texas for the 2022 USGP. They've asked for about $38 Million more for this year's race. I've looked all the way back to 2012, and the least COTA has received from the State is about $23 Million in 2015 ($19.6M state share). So they did receive under $20M one time, but that's not what they receive every year.

 

It's only gone up since then. COTA has received more than $350 Million so far since 2012. About $300 Million for F1 races, and about $50 Million for MotoGP. And they've received more for smaller races over the years as well. The last 3 annual subsidy payments to COTA for F1 have averaged about $33 Million.

 

There's also been no recent cut by the Governor. He cut it for 2015, and since then it has skyrocketed.

 

Do reporters ever do their homework any more? Well, no. Not many at least. And this is how Epstein continues to spread his misinformation. He drops nuggets like this, but doesn't allow them to quote him saying it.  He does it over and over and over, because the typical 'journalist' these days is lazy AF, probably not all that sharp to begin with, and loves the intoxicating access.

Edited by AustinF1, 30 October 2023 - 21:32.

[GreenMachine]

Has this been posted already?

 

https://twitter.com/...2585670667?s=20   

 

Fireworks vs helicopter.  

[loki]

Has this been posted already?

 

https://twitter.com/...2585670667?s=20   

 

Fireworks vs helicopter.  

 

Don’t mess with Texas…

[Widefoot2]

Don’t mess with Texas…

 

I hear that next year's camera 'copter will be an Apache.

[AustinF1]

Yeah, not sure how the wires got crossed, but that was a little concerning. In the video you can hear something hitting a rotor just before the helo flew off. My kid was there watching it when that happened.

Edited by AustinF1, 31 October 2023 - 00:38.

[GreenMachine]

I hear that next year's camera 'copter will be an Apache.

 

... flown by someone with experience in dodging SAMs over Bagdad  

[Widefoot2]

... flown by someone with experience in dodging SAMs over Bagdad  

 

I'd hope so! Sam's an endangered bird, after all, can't lose one to a helicopter...

 

https://tenor.com/vi...690106769049325

 

 

 

[If a mod who's good at such things could embed the gif, I'd appreciate it...]

Edited by Widefoot2, 31 October 2023 - 03:14.

[AustinF1]

I'd hope so! Sam's an endangered bird, after all, can't lose one to a helicopter...

 

https://tenor.com/vi...690106769049325

 

 

 

[If a mod who's good at such things could embed the gif, I'd appreciate it...]

Here you go ... just post it as an image.

[AustinF1]

Oh yeah, re: the drainage problems, a good example just occured to me. Remember the NASCAR fiasco the first year when water wouldn't drain from the back straight and there was just standing water everywhere? Yeah. That wasn't always a problem there. 

[LolaB0860]

Buy back of early bird ticket something something money making https://racer.com/20...d-usgp-tickets/

But more importantly, concerts! That are announced at the end of April apparently. They are the most crucial thing about everything by the look of it, everyone only comes to motor races to party and enjoy live music. The support races, no-one cares about them. As you can see there is still zero mention of them here and most of the racing calendars are already out. I mean the IMSA Porsches will be there, but if that's all you got, even Miami beats you.

The big boss man is also saying how MotoGP only has the sustainability to have one standalone event in USA (with them)
https://racer.com/20...togp-twin-bill/

Edited by LolaB0860, 18 April 2024 - 20:01.

[AustinF1]

Buy back of early bird ticket something something money making https://racer.com/20...d-usgp-tickets/

But more importantly, concerts! That are announced at the end of April apparently. They are the most crucial thing about everything by the look of it, everyone only comes to motor races to party and enjoy live music. The support races, no-one cares about them. As you can see there is still zero mention of them here and most of the racing calendars are already out. I mean the IMSA Porsches will be there, but if that's all you got, even Miami beats you.

The big boss man is also saying how MotoGP only has the sustainability to have one standalone event in USA (with them)
https://racer.com/20...togp-twin-bill/

Re: the buyback, yeah a friend texted to me about that the other day, and we can't make heads or tails of why they're offering it. Odd, to say the least, imho. Any ideas why they'd do such a thing? The way they're spinning it as a 'buyback for more than face value' is a bit disingenuous though (shocking, I know). The price they're offering is more than the $299 'earlybird' face value, but below the current $389 face value. Judging from the way he describes it in the article about it, it sounds like he's trying to pump up early sales, which appear very slow compared to the last couple of years. COTA Is Buying Back Early-Bird F1 Tickets So It Can Sell Them for More Money https://www.thedrive...-for-more-money

Re: Support races, the COTA is notoriously thin on support action for the F1 weekend, but yeah, woohoo, a concert or two. 

Re: the sustainability of MotoGP wrt adding more US stops, yeah of course he's gonna say that. It's pretty funny though that he's downplaying the F1/MotoGP twin bill now and pointing out the obvious problems with that idea - when he's the one who first floated it a couple of years ago. Now he says it's unlikely. Yeah, no ****, Sherlock.

Edited by AustinF1, 18 April 2024 - 20:37.