174 replies to this topic

[akshay380]

With Mercedes W05 dominating the season so far, thought I'll make a thread to discuss the dominant cars ever built in Formula One. Here are some I have put together. Feel free to suggest any additions.

 

1988: McLaren MP4/4 is officially the most dominant package F1 has ever witnessed. The car won 15 poles, 15 wins in 16 races with 10 1-2                 finishes.  This car designed by Gordan Murray also had just one mechanical related retirement.

         

 

1992: The WIlliams FW14B won 15 poles, 10 wins in 16 races. The car had 9 retirements in 1992 with 5 of them starting from pole. 

           

 

 

2002: Ferrari F2002 won 11 poles, 15 wins in 19 races with 8 1-2 finishes. This car designed by Designed by  Ross Brawn,Rory Byrne and Paolo Martinelli           suffered just one mechanical related retirement.

          

 

 

2004:  Ferrari F2004 won 12 poles, 15 wins in 18 raceswith 8 1-2 finishes. This car designed by Designed by  Ross Brawn,Rory Byrne and             Aldo Costa had just one mechanical related retirement.

          

 

2011: Red Bull RB7 won 18 poles, 12 wins in 19 races with 3 1-2 finishes. The car designed by Adrian Newey, Rob Marshall and Peter                   Prodromou  did not suffer any mechanical retirements.

          

         

 

2013: Red Bull RB9 won 11 poles, 13 wins in 19 races with 4 1-2 finishes. The car designed by Adrian Newey, Rob Marshall and Peter                                           Prodromou  suffered one retirement with mechanical issues. 

         

         

 

And finally the most successful Racing car ever made.

Edited by akshay380, 24 April 2014 - 08:09.

[hollowstar]

I had forgotten how pretty cars were with previous regs. Wish we would go back to narrow front wings and lower rear wings... That F2002 was a beauty!

OTOH, I almost feel like I could have drawn MP4-4 myself. (almost) Looks so simple!

Anyway, I think you forgot one car to the list

[Borko]

I'm watching F1 since 1998 and the most dominant car I've ever seen is Ferrari F2002. That car should have won all the races in the season - those two where it didn't win were Malaysia and Monaco, but Malaysia was the example how insanely fast that car is - Schumacher lost the front wing in the first corner of the race and drove the enitre first lap without it + the pit stop, being absolutely last when he returned to the track. He finished on the podium. The only season when one driver was on the podium in all the races of the season. F2002 didn't win in Monaco - because it's Monaco, Coulthard got a great start and found himself in front of Montoya and MSC, with Schumacher being stuck behind Montoya during the first part of race, after he passed him he was on Coulthard's tail all the time but of course wasn't able to overtake him.

Edited by BorkoF2012, 24 April 2014 - 06:28.

[senna da silva]

Lotus 79. Won 12 races in 1978.

[teejay]

My modified Subaru forester - never lost a race from a set of lights.

[akshay380]

Lotus 79. Won 12 races in 1978.

Sorry Wiki says 7 wins, 10 poles from 26 races. Did I miss something?

[Lazy]

Lotus 79

 

Maybe not that many wins compared to more reliable modern cars, but the best imo.

[senna da silva]

Sorry Wiki says 7 wins, 10 poles from 26 races. Did I miss something?

 

My bad. it was actually 12 poles and 8 wins from 16 races in 1978.

Edited by senna da silva, 24 April 2014 - 06:41.

[ensign14]

And finally the most successful Racing car ever made.

I think it's an American saying - don't tell me what you won, tell me whom you beat.
 

Bugatti's period of dominance in Grand Prix racing came at a time when almost literally nobody else could be bothered.  The first Bugatti GP win came in a race in which there were 3 starters.  All Bugattis.  Before then, Alfa were dominant, and withdrew after a series of deaths.  Then Delage came in and won everything.  Then they pulled out as well.  Fiat built a car that won its only race.  Alfa came back in in the early thirties and promptly dominated.  Even a Bentley nearly beat every Bugatti at a Grand Prix. 

 

In the end the only way Bugatti could win a Grand Prix was when the French changed the rules so Mercedes, Auto Union, Maserati and Alfa could not enter.  Even ERA voiturettes were keeping Bugatti honest by the late thirties. 

[Lazy]

Lotus 79. Won 12 races in 1978.

 

 

Sorry Wiki says 7 wins, 10 poles from 26 races. Did I miss something?

 

It actually won 6 in 78 as it wasn't introduced until the 6th race, had a few mechanical failures and then Ronnie died at Monza.

 

Still the best F1 car ever to my nostalgic mind  

[senna da silva]

MP4/5 in 1989 was pretty handy as well.

[Lazy]

MP4/5 in 1989 was pretty handy as well.

Yeah, probably a better car than the 4 tbh, but without the engine advantage.

 

Edit: Probably would have been the best looking F1 car ever were it not for the dodgy Marlboro colours.

Edited by Lazy, 24 April 2014 - 06:52.

[Cesc]

I say F2012. It had at least 1/2 second advantage over the rest and was very reliable. Very close I put the MP4/4, the car was fast and had the best two drivers, but in those times F1 was not as predictable as it is nowadays.

Some other cars had a significant speed advantage like the Williams in 1992, when Mansel got poles with 2 seconds faster than the second row...insane, but the car was not 100% reliable.

[SenorSjon]

They could run slower to prevent failures, but in that day and age, margins were high in times. You also had no SC, so often times were combined after a red flag. If you have a minute to spare, you can coast your way back home.

[lbennie]

You have a pic of the RB7 under the RB9 heading 

[akshay380]

You have a pic of the RB7 under the RB9 heading 

Fixed

[1Devil1]

I say F2012. It had at least 1/2 second advantage over the rest and was very reliable. Very close I put the MP4/4, the car was fast and had the best two drivers, but in those times F1 was not as predictable as it is nowadays.

Some other cars had a significant speed advantage like the Williams in 1992, when Mansel got poles with 2 seconds faster than the second row...insane, but the car was not 100% reliable.

???

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

Hands down, the 1993 Williams (FW15C) could be the most dominant car of all times. Let me try to explain why:

 

The 1988 McLaren is supposed to be the über car. Well Prost drove in both of them and half a decade later when was he said not to be exactly as fast as 1988, he was, in qualifying, in average by 1.1 seconds infront of the first non-Williams car whereas he was in.1988 in average by "only" 0.9 seconds infront of the first non-McLaren car. In 1988/1989 he wasn't by far permanently (only 12 of 16 times in 1988 and only 11 of 16 times in 1989) in the first starting grid (although being a faster driver then) whereas he was 16 of 16 possible times in 1993.

 

Once again, considering that he as a driver was faster in 1988 it hints very strongly that the 1993 Williams was, in relation of its competitors, the most dominant car ever even putting the 1988 McLaren in second place of this ranking.

 

[Epilogue:

 

And now, imagine Senna sitting in that FW15C! Finding out that there are really fast Senna times with the FW15C in Silverstone or Portugal or Barcelona or any other testing track of that time would be the same as finding out that The Beatles secretly were meeting each other in the 70's and recorded a complete new album.]

[lbennie]

Fixed

 

 brilliant

[1Devil1]

Hands down, the 1993 Williams (FW15C) could be the most dominant car of all times. Let me try to explain why:

 

The 1988 McLaren is supposed to be the über car. Well Prost drove in both of them and half a decade later when was he said not to be exactly as fast as 1988, he was, in qualifying, in average by 1.1 seconds infront of the first non-Williams car whereas he was in.1988 in average by "only" 0.9 seconds infront of the first non-McLaren car. In 1988/1989 he wasn't by far permanently (only 12 of 16 times in 1988 and only 11 of 16 times in 1989) in the first starting grid (although being a faster driver then) whereas he was 16 of 16 possible times in 1993.

 

Once again, considering that he as a driver was faster in 1988 it hints very strongly that the 1993 Williams was, in relation of its competitors, the most dominant car ever even putting the 1988 McLaren in second place of this ranking.

 

[Epilogue:

 

And now, imagine Senna sitting in that FW15C! Finding out that there are really fast Senna times with the FW15C in Silverstone or Portugal or Barcelona or any other testing track of that time would be the same as finding out that The Beatles secretly were meeting each other in the 70's and recorded a complete new album.]

 

Because cross over comparisons, of qualifying pace are the real measuring stick if a car is dominant or not. You are missing different things, what circuits were used in 1988, what means larger difference in the year 1988 and 1993, today 1 second would per enormous, in the year 1988 and before normal, In 1988 Prost knew it was impossible for him, to beat Senna, he did set up his car, for the race - coming to that point : nice try to explain why Senna did not drive the über car, but you failed, by using one variable

[pRy]

No Brawn GP?

[HistoryFan]

The Delage from 1927 is missing.

 

To Brawn GP: They just dominated the first part of the season.

[Fatgadget]

Right here right now history is in the making with the W05..I take it that's where this thread is heading to right?!

[Spaceframe]

The Delage from 1927 is missing.

Except it wasn't an F1

[akshay380]

Right here right now history is in the making with the W05..I take it that's where this thread is heading to right?!

I would love to, but would wait till end of season 

[king_crud]

I say F2012. It had at least 1/2 second advantage over the rest and was very reliable. Very close I put the MP4/4, the car was fast and had the best two drivers, but in those times F1 was not as predictable as it is nowadays.

Some other cars had a significant speed advantage like the Williams in 1992, when Mansel got poles with 2 seconds faster than the second row...insane, but the car was not 100% reliable.

15/16 races is not reliable? Especially in a time of lower reliability than we have now, with controlled engine revs etc? You answer doesn't make any sense to me

[scheivlak]

Hands down, the 1993 Williams (FW15C) could be the most dominant car of all times. Let me try to explain why:

 

The 1988 McLaren is supposed to be the über car. Well Prost drove in both of them and half a decade later when was he said not to be exactly as fast as 1988, he was, in qualifying, in average by 1.1 seconds infront of the first non-Williams car whereas he was in.1988 in average by "only" 0.9 seconds infront of the first non-McLaren car. In 1988/1989 he wasn't by far permanently (only 12 of 16 times in 1988 and only 11 of 16 times in 1989) in the first starting grid (although being a faster driver then) whereas he was 16 of 16 possible times in 1993.

 

 

In 1988 Prost wasn't that interested in qualifying as fast as possible. He often had no problems in conceding pole to Senna by quite a margin because he concentrated more on race setup and race pace.

[F1ultimate]

I wonder how much luck with dry weather factored into dominance. 

[SenorSjon]

I guess the domination comes from the second driver. If he is also in the top 2-3 nearly every race, you know the car is dominant (or the drivers very good, but usually a team doesn't have two über drivers).

[Lotus53B]

I'd like to nominate the Cooper Climax - very successful in it's own way, and caused every single other team to change to engines at the back (which they were pre-war...odd that they'd forgotten).

 

And then we had the beautiful early 60s cars, slim torpedos, with no bits sticking out.

[Massa]

The F2002 was a beast. One of the only car with no weakness. Domination as brutal as Shaquille O'neal.

Edited by Massa, 24 April 2014 - 09:53.

[P123]

The FW15C should be in there too, with 15 poles and 10 victories from 16 starts.

[jee]

FW18 deserves its spot aswell

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

No Brawn GP?

 

They lost their double decker diffuser advantage mid-way through the season when Red Bull caught up and starting matching them. It was a very tidy car though and given how much personell they lose and how restricted their budgets were it was still a mighty impressive season.

[maverick69]

That's easy: The Brabham BT46B

 

It came. It saw. It conquered whilst spitting gravel at you from its arse...... it got banned.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

The F2002 also deserves a mention.

 

It was not raced in the first few races of the 2002 season as Ferrari opted to use their 2001 car (which still won by the way) but when the F2002 debuted, it was on the podium every single race. If I recall correctly, Schumacher was also on the podium every race of that season too.

[ollebompa]

I personaly would probably not put any of the Red Bulls on a list like this. If I had to it would be the RB6. Were it not for his inexperience, 2010 could have been Sebs most dominant year.

I would say Ferarri 500.

[Afterburner]

That's easy: The Brabham BT46B

It came. It saw. It conquered whilst spitting gravel at you from its arse...... it got banned.

I'm getting close to the bottom of the thread, and I'm like, 'Okay, surely somebody's remembered that bloody Brabham.'

Would have to agree. So fast that it was banned after one race is something nobody these days could ever hope to achieve.

[Cesc]

???

ups, yes F2002...

 

15/16 races is not reliable? Especially in a time of lower reliability than we have now, with controlled engine revs etc? You answer doesn't make any sense to me

 

 

All those were awesome cars, but in 1988 McLaren had no rivals. Williams was in transition phase losing the Honda engine from previous year. Ferrari was the only serious contender but with an inferior car overall and a pair of drivers that were no match at all to the McLaren ones... Senna-Prost vs. Alboreto-Berger. Yes, reliability was ok for the times, but for me, the F2002 was simply perfect.  They had a quite strong opposition with strong teams behind like BMW and McLaren Mercedes and good drivers as well to fight with like Montoya and Ralf Schumacher at their best in BMW and Kimi as well...

Edited by Cesc, 24 April 2014 - 11:31.

[Collombin]

So fast that it was banned after one race is something nobody these days could ever hope to achieve.

My understanding is that it wasn't banned - Bernie just pulled the plug on it before the inevitable happened.

[BullHead]

Alfa 158. Every pole, every win, every fastest lap time.
Of the 1950 F1 championship (excluding the Indy 500 which only US teams took part in anyway)

[Nemo1965]

Lotus 79. Won 12 races in 1978.

 

Ahaaaa... I was waiting for that 'mistake'.

 

But no. The Lotus 1979 did NOT win 12 races in 1978. Andretti won five races in 1978, and Ronnie Peterson two. Furthermore, if I remember correctly, Andretti won that first race in the 78, the first version of the Lotus ground-effect car, so basically the car of 1977.  So it were only 6 wins for the 79. Furthermore, the car was not that dominant as we remember. It won seven races between the 21st of may 1978 and the 27th of august of 1978... and then it was over. So 6 wins in a little of three months... Not that big compared to Williams in 1992 or McLaren in 1984, 88, 90, 91...

 

Another story that is often told - thanks to Heinz Pruller - that Ronnie Peterson was the fastest driver at Lotus and was held back in favour of Mario Andretti. There was only 1 race when Peterson was held back by teamorders, and that was Zandvoort 1978. For the rest of the year, Andretti beat Peterson fair and squarly, both in qualifying as in races. Untill that fateful day in Monza...

 

PS: I just checked the results. Ronnie alson won 1 race in the 'old' Lotus, in the 78. The Lotus 79 debuted in Belgium. So it are FIVE wins for the 79!

Edited by Nemo1965, 24 April 2014 - 11:37.

[Nemo1965]

My understanding is that it wasn't banned - Bernie just pulled the plug on it before the inevitable happened.

 

Correct. Ecclestone was pressured to withdraw the car, to great anger of designer Murray. However, the car probably could have raced in the North-American races. Imagine what could have happened...

[OO7]

In 1988 Prost wasn't that interested in qualifying as fast as possible. He often had no problems in conceding pole to Senna by quite a margin because he concentrated more on race setup and race pace.

Except during French Grand Prix weekends.  When on home turf he seemed to go the extra mile.

[noikeee]

My vote has to go MP4/4, as good as Prost and Senna were, winning 15 out of 16 races and only failing to win the other one because your driver crashed out, is a ridiculously consistent record than no other of those cars can meet - all of the others had at least a couple races where they didn't have that huge an edge. The MP4/4 is even more impressive considering it competed in an era of unreliability as it was back then. Utterly astonishing achievement by McLaren and Honda that year.

[blackmme]

It has to be the MP4/4 there wasn't a single race where the car wasn't the absolute class of the field.  In fact it's strongest challenger in terms of pure pace came very late in the year with the March 881, which certainly in Portugal was every bit as fast as the McLaren.

 

The March 881 was Adrian Newey's first F1 car, look at the list above 50% (at a guess) of the cars listed are Newey designs!  If you have followed F1 in the 26 years since 1988 you have followed F1 through the Newey era.

 

Surely the greatest design talent ever in F1.  His achievements outstrip all the others, even the legends of Cooper, Chapman, Forgheiri, Barnard, Byrne & Brawn.

 

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 24 April 2014 - 11:41.

[ensign14]

Alfa 158. Every pole, every win, every fastest lap time.
Of the 1950 F1 championship (excluding the Indy 500 which only US teams took part in anyway)

 

Ah, but it was sucking hind tit when it was up against the W165 at Tripoli in 1939.  Only dominant because of the ban on German cars.

[PayasYouRace]

Ah, but it was sucking hind tit when it was up against the W165 at Tripoli in 1939.  Only dominant because of the ban on German cars.

 

I don't recall ever reading that German cars were banned.

[Arska]

If you only consider the pace of the car instead of the statistics, it has to be Williams -92. In some quals Mansell was 2-3 seconds faster than the best non-Williams.

[blackmme]

If you only consider the pace of the car instead of the statistics, it has to be Williams -92. In some quals Mansell was 2-3 seconds faster than the best non-Williams.

 

Senna's 88 MP4/4 Monaco pole lap (and remember it's a really short lap) was 2.7 seconds faster than the first non McLaren.

 

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 24 April 2014 - 12:00.