15 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

In the Francis Howe book, Tim May says that Farina, in the V8RI Maserati was five and a half seconds faster than his nearest rival in practice.  However, the Sheldon Black Book says that Sommer, in a Tipo B Alfa, lapped in 2' 04", Farina in 2' 08.4".  A photograph of the start (page 127 of the Howe book) shows Farina in the centre of the front row, Sommer on his right.  Motor Sport (November 1935) says that Farina lapped in 2' 08*, Sommer in 2' 14", i.e. the same as Tim May.  Lief Snellman's website http://www.kolumbus....an/gp356.htm#47) has the same times as Sheldon.   The early stages of the race seem to show that the Maserati was much the fastest car.  In fact the whole grid, as depicted in the Black Book and the Golden Era website looks odd.

 

Can anyone explain?

[D-Type]

The grid does look strange!

 

Doug Nye's 1977 book has the front row (left to right)

 

Maclure                     Farina             Sommer

2:14.0                        2:08.4             2:14.0

 

Featherstonhaugh     Howe              Shuttleworth

2:17.0                        2:16.0             2:19.0

 

Martin                        Rose               Bira

2:21.8                        2:23.0             2:23.0

 

Lewis                         Handley           Dobson

2:24.0                        2:17.0             2:27.0

 

Dobbs                        Everitt             Eccles

2:23.0                        2:23.0            No time

 

Doug writes "Farina dominated practice with his remarkably quiet Maserati V8, whuffling around the undulating woodland glades in 2 minutes 8 seconds, whiuch was a clear second below Eccles' contemporary record.  Sommer was 6 seconds per lap slower, while Mclure astounded everyone by equalling the Monoposto's time in his fleet Riley"

 

 

While Leif Snellman has

   
Maclure                    Farina       Sommer
2m14s                        2m08.4s     2m04s
 
Featherstonhaugh   Howe        Shuttleworth
2m17s                         2m16s       2m19s

Martin                         Rose       "B Bira"
2m21.8s                      2m23s       2m23s
  10

Lewis                          Handley       Dobson
2m24s                         2m17s           2m27s
 
Dobbs                        Everett          Eccles
2m23s                        2m23s

 

The same, apart from Sommer's time.

He writes: "Sommer took the pole with a time of 2m04.8s from Farina (2m08.4s) and Maclure's Riley (2m14.8s)"

 

Looking at the grid as a whole, the organisers have generally put the fastest car in the centre.  This makes some sort of sense as the first bend was a sharp left although it was a clockwise circuit.  I don't know why Dobbs and Everett were on the back row - insufficient practice laps, reserve entries or some other idiosyncratic rule perhaps.

 

This all hinges on Sommer's time.

 

Having typed all this, I remembered that I have the 1935 Motor Sport report on disc and will have to go and read it now.

 

Edit:  Leif Snellman's grid formatted the same as Doug Nye's (the preview showed it like that!)

Edited by D-Type, 05 May 2014 - 15:16.

[Vitesse2]

I think Duncan may well have nailed it! Which means the 2'04" for Sommer is a simple typo, possibly perpetrated in the belief that 2'14" was wrong and that pole position wouldn't have been in the middle. Donington don't seem to have been very consistent on grid methods - the 1936 Donington GP was 4-4-4 and drawn by lot!

 

I can't offer an explanation re Dobbs, but Everitt was seemingly a late substitution for Gino Rovere, whose name is in the programme as both entrant and driver, so perhaps 'insufficient laps' might indeed be the reason. Or maybe 2'23" is another typo? 2'28" and/or 2'32" would fit.

 

Other discrepancies I also noted: both the reprinted programme in Dave Fern's Donington GP book and the preview in The Times show Fontes as reserve rather than - as Leif has it - a DNA. Interestingly, he was assigned a pit, so perhaps the race regulations specified a maximum field of sixteen? That doesn't solve the mystery of the absence of Embiricos though: The Times seemed to expect him to start, so perhaps he was a late DNS rather than a DNA, leaving Fontes no time to get ready? Or maybe Luis had just gone home, figuring he wasn't going to get a race?

[Vitesse2]

Just realised that this race was held the day before the road accident which effectively ended the career of Luis Fontes. His car was in collsion with a motorbike near Sutton Coldfield on the evening of Sunday October 6th: the motorcyclist was killed, Fontes was found guilty of manslaughter and drink driving and lost his driving licence for ten years.

 

As Fontes lived in Torquay, I'm pretty certain Sutton Coldfield would have been on his route home from Donington.

[Roger Clark]

Adam Ferrington has sent me scans from several Derby and Nottingham newspapers. They are unanimous in saying that Farina was fastest in practice but one says that and Sommer both broke Lyndsay Eccles' lap record. There is an article on Eccles' racing career in Motor Sport July 1971 which says that he set a record of 71.446 mph at the April 1935 meeting. This is equivalent to around 2' 08", clearly not consistent with a lap time for Sommer of 2'14" if he broke the record. Can anyone confirm the time of Eccles' lap record?

One might also think that Sommer could lap a 3-litre Tipo B within 5 seconds of Eccles in a T51, other things being equal.

Edited by Roger Clark, 06 May 2014 - 05:20.

[dgs]

According to text (page 38) in 'The Motor Sport Book of Donington' edited by Bill Boddy, "L.Eccles recorded at lap time of 2 min 9.4 seconds or 71.446mph, a figure which stood until the end of the meeting". This was at the 25-Mile Handicap race for Cars up to 3500cc, which L.Eccles won in his Bugatti (3255cc) car at 67.45mph

[Tim Murray]

From the Motor Sport Book of Donington, in the report of the first heat for the 25-mile handicap race for cars up to 3,500cc, at the opening meeting of 1935:

'In this race Eccles beat the lap record once more, doing a lap in 2 min 9.4 sec or 71.466 mph, a figure which stood until the end of the meeting. '

Edit: beaten by dgs, but it should be noted that Eccles set this record in the first heat of that handicap. After the second heat he ended up in joint second place with Seaman, one second behind the winner Martin.

Edited by Tim Murray, 06 May 2014 - 06:39.

[Roger Clark]

Thank you.  That's consistent with Farina being 1 second under the lap record but leaves uncertainty about Sommer.

 

I'm also unsure about dgs' statement that Eccles drove a 3255cc Bugatti. I thought he didn't get the Type 59 until later.

[Vitesse2]

The time and speed of Eccles' April lap are both shown in the programme. In a further idiosyncracy, Donington apparently maintained a list of outright records over different distances, which ignored capacity classes: the two longest listed - over 40 and 60 laps - were both then held by Pat Fairfield's 1100cc ERA and set during his win in the Empire Trophy in July 1935, a class handicap run in 'hare and hounds' format.

 

Adam Ferrington has sent me scans from several Derby and Nottingham newspapers. They are unanimous in saying that Farina was fastest in practice but one says that and Sommer both broke Lyndsay Eccles' lap record. There is an article on Eccles' racing career in Motor Sport July 1971 which says that he set a record of 71.446 mph at the April 1935 meeting. This is equivalent to around 2' 08", clearly not consistent with a lap time for Sommer of 2'14" if he broke the record. Can anyone confirm the time of Eccles' lap record?

One might also think that Sommer could lap a 3-litre Tipo B within 5 seconds of Eccles in a T51, other things being equal.

Not having the reports to hand, might Sommer's time have been set in some sort of unofficial practice session? Neither he nor Farina would even have seen the circuit before so perhaps the D&DMC might have allowed their overseas visitors some familiarisation laps. The press reports I have seen make much of - especially - Farina's presence.

[Roger Clark]

 

 

I'm also unsure about dgs' statement that Eccles drove a 3255cc Bugatti. I thought he didn't get the Type 59 until later.

Motor Sport May '35 said that Eccles drove a 3.3-litre (i.e. Type 59) at the April meeting.  This contradicts the statements in the Eccles profile in the July '71 edition.  The July '71 profile contains a photograph of a 59 said to be Eccles in '35 at Donington.  It carries number 2.  does anyone know what number he had at the April meeting?

[dgs]

I quoted capacity of Lindsay Eccles Bugatti as 3255cc direct from Motor Sport Donington Book.

 

I notice that in appendix II (page 120) it also states 2 mile 971 yard circuit record, was recorded on 13-04-1935 by A.H.L. Eccles (3.3 Bugatti s/c) 2min 9.4 seconds = 71.446mph.

 

In fact the average speed does not quite work out if distance/time are correct. Circuit 2 mile 971 yds = 2.5517 miles divided by time of 2 min 9.4 secords (expressed as percentage of one hour)  equals speed of 70.99mph. Of course in the 1930's race officials did not have access to electronic calculators.

 

The Donington Book appears to contradict itself as in text for Aril meeting it mentions C.E.C.Martin raced as 2.3 litre Bugatti and L.Eccles raced his 'pukka' 3.3 litre Grand Prix Bugatti. Yet in first paragraph on details of 'The Second 1935 Meeting' it mentions "Martin's 3.3 litre Bugatti and Eccles 2.3 litre cars could not be repaired in time (for the meeting) due to proximity to the International Trophy race held the week before.

 

I believe that at 'The International Trophy' Formula Libre race held at Brooklands on 6th May 1935, Lindsay Eccles raced his Bugatti Type 59 (3.3 litre s/c car)

[D-Type]

On the balance of probabilities, I would go with the contemporary quoted cc of cars that did appear rather than those that did not.  The latter may not be a period quote and could have been less scrupulously checked (and WB is fallible on occasions).

 

Likewise, on the question of Sommer's time, if he had demolished the existing lap record by five seconds, it would have been reported at the time rather than Farina's one second improvement.  I think a typo, in Sheldon or earlier, which has propagated.

[Tim Murray]

The Donington book gives the circuit length at the start of 1934 as 2 miles 1,000 yards (pp 17 & 19). There were regular improvements to the course between then and the introduction of the longer circuit in 1937, notably the widening of the track at Coppice between the May and July meetings in 1935.

The lap records in Appendix II equate to a circuit length of 2 miles 1,000 yards for 1934 and 1935 (Eccles at the April 1935 meeting), and to 2 miles 971 yards for 1936 and 1937. My guess would be that the circuit length was recalculated after the modifications in mid-1935.

[Vitesse2]

Good spot, Tim. But the recalculation must have come before the 1935 race, since the shorter distance is quoted in the programme.

[Tim Murray]

That fits my theory, then. If the circuit length was recalculated in mid-1935, it would be the shorter distance that was quoted for the Grand Prix in October.

[Vitesse2]

Further reference to the list of lap records in the programme shows that they were all based on the 2 miles 1000 yards distance: the last record quoted is Joan Richmond's 5-lapper in the ladies' handicap on August 17th, so the re-measure must have been after that date. Possibly as part of the AIACR validating the track's international licence?

 

The speed table in the programme is correct for 2 miles 971 yards - a lap of 120 seconds is quoted at 76.55mph.