19 replies to this topic

[Richard Jenkins]

Looking at the comments in the "Lotus Crunched..." thread regards the Monaco Historique, but also reading about both the issue of test/reserve/young drivers for F1 teams not getting enough track time AND.. reading about how young footballers need competitive games away from the top league to try and make the game better, I've been thinking...

 

.. once I recovered from that, I thought "Would it not be a good idea for the F1 reserve drivers to perhaps enter a season of historic racing?"

 

My reasoning for this is;

• Gives them a valuable racing experience, rather than just testing, which helps their development.
• Gives them an opportunity to race a "proper" F1 racing car, that will hold them in better stead going forward
• Allows for, overall, a stronger quality of racing driver competing in Historic Festivals alongside the proven historic racers
• Nurtures an interest for the drivers, their fans, and current F1 fans in historic racing to ensure future generations follow this side of the sport.
• Arguably makes historic racing safer, more competitive and gives a higher profile to it
• In some cases, say Williams, McLaren and Ferrari, for starters, their teams may also give blessing and allow potentially, for them to drive some of the cars effectively gathering dust, that haven't been seen on tracks for years.
• Allows owners of cars who would normally race for fun potential opportunties in other ways off the track to make up for not racing on it.

 

Or is this too simplistic? Would it never happen because;

1. F1 teams are terrified of any racing other than testing/F1 in case a "Kubica incident" happens again
2. Some of the cars owned by F1 teams will never see light of day for a number of reasons
3. A lot of owners won't want to give up the opportunity of driving around Monaco etc to anyone?

 

Be interested in your thoughts....

[Barry Boor]

Silly though it may sound Richie, I suspect that having to keep taking a hand off the steering wheel to change gear may be beyond many of them - and that's not a facetious comment.

[Odseybod]

Richie, I think I know what you're getting at and there are some attractions - but it seems to me they're outweighed by the drawbacks, and one in particular..

 

It strikes me that with the possible exception of rallying, historic racing has quietly become the most dangerous form of motor sport you can take part in, at least in the UK.  With modern racing cars, from junior single-seaters up to Eff Wun and including those hooligan touring cars, you can get away with the most outrageous and undisciplined driving and still generally emerge unscathed from the crumpled heap that had recently been your vehicle.  Thank structures and components designed to absorb all the punishment progressively without passing it on to the occupant for that, as well as inherently stable cars with a low c of g. .

 

But not so with vintage and historic cars. Even with the scaffolding masquerading as roll-over hoops, they're not designed to take that sort of treatment, or capable of doing so while protecting the driver. No, I'm not saying they're death-traps and should be outlawed, just that you can't abuse them to the same level that you can with a modern car and get away with it. I also think the problem's become significantly worse in recent years, with stickier tyres putting a greater strain on the machinery and also meaning any accident happens at higher speed now than it would have done a few years ago in the same car.

 

Normally pretty sanguine about these things, I suppose the two crashes at the VSCC Silverstone meeting last month made me stop and think.  I have a fear that if historic motor racing becomes the only area of the sport where people are seriously hurt or killed - particularly if spectators are also involved though being hit by (say) untethered wheels or other debris - then the dead hand of Authority will make its presence felt, perhaps banning any event apart from the decorous US-style parades mentioned in the current crunched Lotus 49 thread.  

 

Far-fetched? I sincerely hope so. We may in any case be heading towards making compulsory the racing suits with built-in airbags that the Moto GP riders wear, which would at least offer some extra protection - if we can bear the sight of full-face helmets in vintage cars, we could probably put up with these.

 

But to return to Richie's point, I don't think up-and-coming professional drivers would want to play with historics, simply because they couldn't hone the sort of wheel-banging skills they need to make progress with moderns.  And I also don't think historic racing would want them taking part, because by trying to use the racing tactics they'll need later, they could jeopardise the whole historic racing scene as we currently know it. 

 

Just my 2p's-worth.

[ensign14]

I did wonder whether Scott Mansell was using historics as an unorthodox route into the big time.  Went from Euroboss champ to the Indycar feeder series.  As usual for British drivers, he ran out of funding, but he showed that it was at least a feasible way of getting used to powerful cars.

[Sharman]

Another ponderable point is the term "young drivers". my son, 45, races two wheelers (historic) and the comments there about the young guns revolve around "had his brains taken out" and "mortgage and family, what do you mean?". . I suspect there would be some very broken pieces of machinery, they don't seem to have any respect in modern racing.

[Peter Morley]

BossGP (Euro BOSS hi-jackers) has quite a few current drivers/teams in very recent GP2, World Series etc cars who appear to be using it is a way to learn the tracks, gain experience etc.

That is more relevant to current drivers who don't need to know what a gear lever does.

[alansart]

Chevron Racing are running their Young Ambassador Scheme to promote young drivers in Historic racing. 3 drivers are involved. Callum Grant and James Buckton, who have already been pretty successful in Historic FF1600, plus female karter Jessica Hawkins. The scheme has backing from Mike Wilds and Brian Redman and of course all those involved with Vin and Helen Malkies Chevron Racing concern.

 

[Duc-Man]

Why young drivers? There should still be a fair number of old drivers around that used to race those cars back in the day. If I had an old Can-Am or F-1 car I wanted to see on the track I'd offer (f.e.) Mike Wilds the drive for each event he wanted to take part at.

[Ross Stonefeld]

 

 

My reasoning for this is;

• Gives them a valuable racing experience, rather than just testing, which helps their development.
• Gives them an opportunity to race a "proper" F1 racing car, that will hold them in better stead going forward

 

 

I think if you're at the level of F1 Reserve Driver© even as a total ride-buy, you're pretty much over qualified for historic racing. You'll have already done contemporary F3, probably some Renault 3.5 or GP2 or Formula Nippon or whatever. So why drive a horribly out of date race car against no meaningful competition, with no development to speak of? Apart from some tracktime at Monaco I don't reasonably see what a pro driver would learn that they haven't already.

 

There's probably a gain to be had in not treating the car like a video game but they weren't going to learn that no matter what you put them in 

 

On the other hand, putting some of the younger guys in historic racing might be interesting, to give them that 'classic' training. Running the Pau historics would most likely increase your performance in the Pau F3 Grand Prix on a number of levels.

[alansart]

On the other hand, putting some of the younger guys in historic racing might be interesting, to give them that 'classic' training. 

 

Current BTCC Champion Andrew Jordan shares an A40 in Historics with his Dad. Some drivers just like to race anything!

[AJB]

Doesn't that B16 look beautiful compared with modern sports-prototypes?

[BRG]

Doesn't that B16 look beautiful compared with modern sports-prototypes?

Yes, but then it looked beautiful compared to its competitors in period as well.

[Mallory Dan]

Not as nice as the B42 though, chaps

[elansprint72]

Doesn't that B16 look beautiful compared with modern sports-prototypes?

It looked even better before the "orange boxes" were added at the rear but, of course, the Aero was wrong, so it had to change.

The B16 and T70, imho, are the two best-ever Sports-Racers in terms of aesthetics; of course the same pencil drew them.

 

Edited by elansprint72, 14 May 2014 - 21:26.

[Alan Cox]

Just my 2p's-worth.

 

 

An opinion worth a bit more than tuppence, Tony, IMHO

[Odseybod]

Thanks, Alan. Not normally in my nature to be a Prophet of Doom but felt it needed saying.

[HistoryFan]

BossGP (Euro BOSS hi-jackers) has quite a few current drivers/teams in very recent GP2, World Series etc cars who appear to be using it is a way to learn the tracks, gain experience etc.

That is more relevant to current drivers who don't need to know what a gear lever does.

 

In Boss-GP there a lot of young drivers now, like Bernd Herndlhofer or Gary Hauser. But: I don't see any of these guys in serios racing series, so I don't think they will do a professional career. Herndhofer is driving Boss GP now in the third year or something like that.

 

Yelmer Buurman was racing in Boss-GP some years ago for one event training GP2, but I think: The idea is good, but in reality it is not really happening...

[john aston]

What are they going to learn? What a car with no aero grip feels like? How to heel and toe (watch the Alex Rossi video at Austin if it hasn''t been taken down by the Hewland Preservation Society ?)? How to right foot brake ? How to beat drivers older than their Dads ?

 

Not a good idea at all- Historic racing is about the cars more than the racing - but the racing can often be sublime too. Great to see youngsters in Historics but let's not see the spirit of the sport be diluted by big buck rule benders - which undoubtedly would happen if F1 teams entered this arena . And yes- I know not every car or driver in historics is entirely pukka now...   

[RW7]

I agree whole-heartedly  with John Aston. As I see it there are two issues - safety and cost (in that order).

 

Addressing them in reverse order, for a reason that I hope becomes logical -

 

The young guys all want to win - and didn't we? 

 

So they spend increasing amounts to find those elusive tenths of a second...

 

...and while doing so they (we) move ourselves closer to the big shunt.

 

It is not lost on me that while the circuits are safer and modern racing cars are MUCH safer, the cars we choose to drive are just as dangerous as they were in their hey-day - AND they are probably going faster!

Edited by RW7, 16 May 2014 - 12:27.

[Charlieman]

My thanks to Richard Jenkins for the provocative set of questions. And I've enjoyed the responses too.

 

Overall I think it is beneficial for young drivers who seek a professional career to get some experience in historics. A great many professional drivers currently race cars that pre-date their mainstream activity. The ability to drive old stuff competently might be a skill that distinguishes between a pro and a playboy.

 

In response to John Aston's measured words, I'd argue that getting up and coming drivers to race historics need not be a disaster. Putting half a dozen on the grid together, all wound up to win, would result in calamity so I definitely would reject a series. But putting a couple of guest drivers into races in guest cars might generate a bit of fun. Put them in March 761s or the like which do not have continuous history.

 

John questions whether any transferrable skills might be learned in historics. Err, to finish first, first you must finish? These cars are not spec models so if you bend the suspension in practice, you can't borrow spares from another team. The driver is in control and there is no car to pit communication. For the driver to improve the car, s/he has to identify problems and explain them sufficiently to the crew. I'd say that is good learning. And for an up and coming driver, a potential professional, the future is rarely F1; the good ones will have a career in sports car racing where not hitting other cars is an essential skill. Those who fancy a career in touring cars might not be welcome.

 

A further consideration is that historic racing finds few new converts. Despite the fact that it provides a great spectacle, almost nobody watches it. The Goodwood events (an exception) attract motorsport fans of all ages, by recognising that history is just something a little bit older than you remember, then trying to make it exciting. I disagree with Richard Jenkins' propositions but I believe that he is thinking on interesting lines.