10 replies to this topic

[jvl]

having just finished "life in the fast lane" by steve machett (for the third time, i love that book), he stated that for the grand prix of japan in 1993 benetton ran with a 4 wheel drive car (they also had 4 wheel steer) and my question is how did they get the drive to the front wheels.

[Engineguy]

I thought 4 wheel drive was outlawed mid 1970's, perhaps at the same time 6 wheels were outlawed. Yes? Maybe he was talking about axles connecting the two front wheels through a differential (for braking, not drive)?

[Amadeus]

This is all from memory, so forgive the innacuracies... A guy called Ferguson (Irish tractor magnate, like Lamborghini, but without the glamour) mounted a huge auto safety campaign in which he developed a 4 wheel drive car, and attempted to get the British govt to build it using Rover, BMC, etc. This was back in the sixties sometime.

If I remember correctly he also developed a 4 wheel drive F1 racecar which competed in a couple of events (for some reason I have the idea that Moss drove one, but I must be wrong). To my knowledge the car was fast but a pig to driver and is the only 4 wheel driver to appear in F1.

But I could well be totally wrong! ;)

[Amadeus]

God Damn I'm good!!;)

Just done some checking...

From http://4wd.sofcom.co...ars/Racing.html :

"1961:The engine capacity for Formula-One cars was reduced from 2.5 to 1.5 litres. Ferguson Research devised the Formula Ferguson (FF) four wheel drive system. Jack Fairman drove the 4WD Ferguson Project 99 (P99) F1 car in the British Grand Prix at Aintree. Later, Stirling Moss won the Oulton Park Gold Cup race in it; there was rain during the race but Moss' practice time was second fastest - 1m44.8s v. 1m44.6s by Bruce McLaren in a Cooper - so the P99 was no dry-weather slouch. This innovative car has a front mounted Coventry Climax 4-cylinder engine, Ferguson Four Wheel Drive System and Dunlop Maxaret ABS brakes. Moss nominated the P99 as his favourite Formula-One car in the September 1997 issue of MotorSport and he knew a few cars. The P99 is now at the D0nington Museum.

The project's beginnings were with Fred Dixon and Tony Rolt who were inspired by the racing possibilities of 4WD before WWII. After the war they teamed up with Harry Ferguson (of the tractors). Ferguson Research worked on many, perhaps too many, innovative ideas, trying to interest the major manufacturers in using 4WD in high volume production cars. Claude Hill devised a centre differential arrangement with automatic locking to limit the speed differences allowed between front and rear axles in the case of wheel slip. The idea of a racing car, the P99, was taken up in 1960 for 1961 as a high speed test-bed and demonstrator of the system's advantages. BRM built a 4WD FF-based car for F1 in 1964, and there was more F1 interest by 1969, but American Indianapolis-style racers were more quickly receptive. The Ferguson 4WD system was also used in the Jensen FF 4WD road car (1966).

Formula-One later changed from 1.5 litre engines to 3 litre engines and one would have thought that four wheel drive would have become even more relevant, what with the increased power and relatively primitive tyre technology, but it was not tried again until 1969

1969:brought a brief flowering of four wheel drive to the 3-litre era of Formula One (F1). Lotus, Matra and McLaren tried 4WDs and Cosworth, the engine maker, built one of their own. The 4WDs did not perform well, but they were brand new and barely developed, while teams concentrated on the main-chance 4x2s. The drivers also objected to the heavy handling, or was it just "different"? Some thought that there could not be a 4WD success unless a team and its drivers wholeheartedly committed themselves to the system - a similar phenomenon later occurred in the F1 turbo-car era. (4WD however was later banned from F1.)

1969 June 21: The Dutch Grand-Prix at Zandvoort saw Matra and Lotus bring 4WDs to practice - the Matra MS84 and the Lotus 63. At this time all cars were powered by the 3 litre Ford Cosworth V8, except for a lone Ferrari V12 for Chris Amon and uncompetitive BRM V12s for John Surtees and Jackie Oliver. The drivers put most effort into their 4x2 cars - Jackie Stewart in has Matra MS80, Graham Hill and Jochen Rindt in their Lotus 49Bs. Hill did achieve a 4WD practice-lap time within 3.8 seconds of his best 4x2 time and Stewart one within 2.4 seconds of his best 4x2 time (1:21.5). Neither 4WD car started the race. Stewart won (MS80).

The Lotus 63 drew on Lotus' experience with the type 56 Indianapolis gas-turbine cars although powered by the 3-litre V8 Cosworth engine. Because of this latter fact it had a water radiator, mounted in the nose as was the custom of the day, although the car was very low and the nose long and rather wedge shaped. The rear-mounted engine was turned around with the gearbox behind and beneath the driver's back. Drive was taken fore and aft by shafts on the left hand side of the car. The driver was positioned quite far forward with his ankles beneath the front "axle". The ventilated disc brakes were inboard, which reduced unsprung weight and made more room for the steering, hub, and c.v. joints out at the wheels. (Inboard brakes were inherited by the later Lotus 72, despite its being 4x2. The Lotus 72 also brought side-mounted radiators to F1; Colin Chapman was a very innovative designer.)

The Matra MS84 was less radical in appearance than the Lotus 63, resembling the 4x2 MS80. It also used the Cosworth engine turned around but with the drive shafts on the right hand side of the body.

Some controversy surrounded "aerodynamic devices" on the F1 cars at Zandvoort. Aerofoils, or were they "spoilers" sprouted on noses and tails and there was much stretching and bending of, and grumbling about, the rules in this regard.

1969 July 6: The French Grand-Prix, Clermont-Ferrand. Jackie Stewart concentrated on practice in the 4x2 Matra MS80 (3:00.6), and was 6 seconds slower in a session in the 4WD MS84. A new driver, John Miles, drove the 4WD Lotus 63, recording 3:12.8 in practice and starting the race, 12th out of 13 on the grid. The car retired after one lap. Stewart won (MS80).

1969 July 19: The British Grand-Prix, Silverstone saw McLaren join Matra and Lotus in the 4WD club, trying the 4WD M9A, although only as an aside to the 4x2 M7As. The last 4 out of 17 places of the starting grid were filled with 4WDs: Derek Bell (McLaren M9A), John Miles (Lotus 63), Jean-Pierre Beltoise (Matra MS84) and Jo Bonnier (Lotus 63). Beltoise finished 9th, and Miles 10th, out of 10 finishers, respectively 6 and 9 laps behind the winner (Stewart, MS80) [MotorSport].

In due course, four wheel drive was banned from Formula-One Grand Prix racing. It is interesting to speculate if it would be in use today, if allowed, or do the current aerodynamic devices give sufficient traction for 4x2s?"

So there you go F1/4WD in 1961 and 1969 only....

[mat1]

In 1969 there have been a couple of 4WD F1 cars. I believe Matra had a MS84, McLaren had a variant of the M7 (M7C??), Lotus had the 63 (I believe), and Cosworth itself had developed a 4WD car too.

I think the Lotus has actually raced in one or two GPs, I think with John Miles driving.

They didn't succeed, because there were a lot heavier than the 2WD cars, because they (at least the Lotus) tended to understeer violently, and because the arrival of downforce and maybe better tyres lessened the need for 4WD. Withe wings it became easier to put the power on the road with just 2 wheels driven.

4WD was outlawed later, I think at the same time when it was stated a f1 car should have no more than 4 wheels. (1978?)

mat

[DangerMouse]

Ferguson did indeed run a 4WD GP car in the early 60s, It handled slow corners extremely well but was too heavy in the fast stuff.

Leading on from the idea spawned by Ferguson, Granatelli produced a 4WD Gas Turbine Indy car in 68 which was very fast but didn't handle too well either - to fix this conundrum and have a stab at building a lighter car they joined forces with Lotus to produce the Lotus type 53. A 4WD Gas Turbine Lotus, again using the Ferguson full time 4WD system. Although still heavy despite the ultra light engine the Lotus was (of course) by far the lightest 4WD GP car thus far.

The 53s occasionally ran very strongly (in GPs and Indy) leading to a reduction in allowable inlet area for Gas Turbines. After 1969 Gas Turbines and 4WD were banned forever, much to Chapmens annoyance!

jvl, Benetton could not have run 4WD in 93 even if they wanted to as it was banned at the end of 1969. The 93 Benetton was a completely conventional design. A rather neat simple and fast car as it happens! But 4WD? no.

[Ali_G]

That is all bo****ks. There is no way they were allowed to run it.

Niall

[gray_cat]

One of the reasons for 4wd not being popular in single-seaters is the packaging problem - it is very compact with engine and gearbox behind the driver, but becomes quite cumbersome with drive-shafts.

They tried diferent tricks to avoid putting driver on top of a drive-shaft with older front-engined cars, one of which was Alfa's twin shaft in V configuration.

Ferguson's experiments encouraged Audi to develop Quattro, which was nothin less than a revolution in rally world.

[Wolf]

OK, here's Ferguson photo:



BTW, I think that performance had rather more to do with the Maestro himself, than with car, for it was considered a bit too cumbersome. Having engine in front (and we're talking 1960 here, when everyone was turning towards rear-mid engine placement), didn't help it either. I have a nice cutaway drawing of P99, but alas no scanner.

[Ali_G]

The perfomance gain of the car would be huge though.

Don't Audi have to run extra ballast in all touring car competitions as their car would be way faster.

niall

[MrAerodynamicist]

Didn't Benetton try out four wheel steerings for a while in the early 90's? If so, that would explain the confusion!