14 replies to this topic

[MatsNorway]

Hi again good folks.

Thank you for the help of identifying the Nordic special car Snowhite. This time we would like to share pictures of a car we think is a bit less known and harder to say anything about. But it is still got Bengt Olsson involved.

 

Dad believes the car was made outside of/at Fram motor company between 1947 and 1950

 

https://scontent-b-a...131064731_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphoto...393252589_o.jpg

 

Why is the door given a cut on the top?

[antonvrs]

Hi again good folks.

Thank you for the help of identifying the Nordic special car Snowhite. This time we would like to share pictures of a car we think is a bit less known and harder to say anything about. But it is still got Bengt Olsson involved.

 

Dad believes the car was made outside of/at Fram motor company between 1947 and 1950

 

https://scontent-b-a...131064731_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphoto...393252589_o.jpg

 

Why is the door given a cut on the top?

I believe the car in question is a BMW 327 or 327/28 and the door cut is for the driver to rest his elbow on as in the photo.

[Vitesse2]

It's a reasonably standard BMW 328 - or possibly two similar ones: the tail of the car in the second picture looks shorter.

[uechtel]

I agree to antonvrs, it looks very much like a standard BMW 327, only without bumpers, which makes it look a bit more 328 like. It´s clearly a four seater model on both pictures. With the blinkers on the fenders it may even be a postwar model from EMW production. Despite that, if it had perhaps a 80 hp 328 engine it may still have been quite a competitive car against other privateer drivers. The cut in the door might be explained that the driver did want to be able to lean into corners or perhaps get into the car in cool style without having to open the door.

[Tomas Karlsson]

This is Norwegian driver Arvid Fische's BMW 327 ready for the trip to Stockholm, Sweden and the Stockholm Grand Prix in May 1948. Fische raced at Skarpnäck in the sportscar race for cars between 1100-2000cc on Saturday the 29th and started from the front row beside Sjöqvist's Citroen special and Knutsson's BMW 328. Fische managed to take the lead before he hit the haybales in a sharp corner. The car got damaged and Fische had to retire from the race.

For '49 he had got a 328 and finished second in Stockholm.

[MatsNorway]

Cool. But are you sure? And did they really hack the door like that just to lean on it? Got more?

 

Thanks for the Help Tomas. And get that book of yours done.

 

Backside of the picture with the kids: https://scontent-a-a...393488684_o.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 16 July 2014 - 21:43.

[Tomas Karlsson]

The car is prepared for racing and the doors blocked, so they not will swing open. There is no handlebar on the right side. So I suppose the hacked out left side, was for getting in and out easier.

[Tomas Karlsson]

When Fische raced the 327 at Gardermoen in '47, it had a standard body. I think the door thing had something to do with the rules for the Stockholm race. There were no cars in that class with doors you could open on the driver's side.

After the Stockholm race in '48 Fische got a more nimble 328.

[MatsNorway]

I guess the difference between GP racers and GT was way less back then..  Has there ever been a GP car that was based upon a street car chassie i wonder. Or was the last if there where several.

Edited by MatsNorway, 17 July 2014 - 18:13.

[Tomas Karlsson]

It depends on what you mean with a Grand Prix. There have been several "Grand Prix" cars based on street car chassis through the years, but after WWII they are hard to find. Mind you, one of the Nordic Specials, with a Ford chassis, was actually entered for the German GP in 1951. But luckily it never showed up.

In the Stockholm GP in '48, the main race was for formula cars up to two liters (F2). And they were all pure race cars. Except one! A stripped Finnish BMW 328. At Skarpnäck it qualified with a 77 km/h lap, while the fastest Gordini did it in 88 (yes, it was a very twisty mickey mouse-circuit).

Fische did the lap in 2.26,1. That's 24 seconds slower then the Gordini and almost 7 slower then the stripped 328.

Edited by Tomas Karlsson, 17 July 2014 - 20:19.

[uechtel]

The answer to the question is difficult because it depends on some definitions:

 

What do you understand under a "GP car"? A car intentionally designed for GP races or a car that the owner realized did somehow comply with the then current GP rules?

What do you understand under a "street car"? A car built for everyday´s use in open traffic or a car that was intended as a competition car, but where the rules required that it must have been "street legal"?

What do you understand under "based on a street car chassis"? Does it mean it uses some tubes of a street car or must the complete chassis be unchanged, including suspension, brakes etc.?

Finally, what do you understand under a "GP"? An event for the Driver World Championship or any event carrying the term "GP" in the title? (Like some of the French GP were sports car events)

 

For example in the US GP 1959 at the back of the grid there was a Porsche Spyder driven by Harry Blanchard.

 

https://www.flickr.c...ord/4929493421/

 

Maybe not exactly what we would understand as "street car", also I think it was modified to central mounted steering wheel, but otherweise quite similar to cars used in open public. Also I think the Porsche 718 monopostos were very much based on the same chassis, but of course they had originally been designed according to Formula 2 rules which happened to become Formula 1 in 1961...

 

Besides that, immediately after the war there were quite a number of "stripped" street cars (or street car chassis with changed bodywork) in GP racing. For examples the Delahayes, Delages, Talbots. And lots of specials were composed from parts of all kinds of street cars.

Edited by uechtel, 18 July 2014 - 09:45.

[MatsNorway]

That Spyder is the best example. Thats quite late in F1 too. i doubt there was anyone else after that. Parts is one thing chassie fairly stock is something else.

[uechtel]

Yes, I think it was the last one on "top level". But maybe in more local events.

 

For example I found another Porsche Spyder driven by Ian Frazer-Jones in the South African GP in January 1960. But that was no World Chapionship event in that year.

 

http://www.silhouet..../1960/1960.html

 

In theory you could still have brought anything up until the capacity limit to the start until 1961 (I think) when it was required that a GP car had to have "open wheels". So my father´s VW beetle could have been a GP car...

Edited by uechtel, 18 July 2014 - 10:49.

[uechtel]

And even one in the South African GP in December 1960. Also in some of the South African races in the early sixties there was a Lotus 7 driven by Brausch Niemann. For example Natal GP in December 1962.

[D-Type]

In 1950 (I think) a standard Jaguar XK120 ran in the [non-Championship] Syracuse GP.

 

Godin de Beaufort drove his left-hand-drive Porsche Spyder in the 1958 and 1959 Dutch [World Championship] GPs and in the F2 class of the German GP in 1957 and 1958.

 

Some of the Talbot Lagos in immediately postwar GPs were stripped sports cars.

 

The numerous BMW 328-based Eigenbaus in the 1952 and 1953 german GPs

 

I'm sure there are more in non-championship races where sports or sports-racing cars ran.  An extreme case is the very minor Formula 1 race at Davidstow won by a Lotus Mk10.

Edited by D-Type, 18 July 2014 - 17:28.