6095 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

I don't think there will be penalties for these corners with the gravel, but in qualifying the lap will still be deleted for going outside of the white lines as a matter of rule/procedure. 

Edited by ARTGP, 26 June 2024 - 18:12.

[pdac]

The rules don't provide for a penalty. The rule is simple, no penalty needed, except when rejoining unsafe or with gaining a lasting advantage:

 

Who said I agree that the current rules are adequate?

[IrvTheSwerve]

The rules don't provide for a penalty. The rule is simple, no penalty needed, except when rejoining unsafe or with gaining a lasting advantage:

It’s a bit strange, I’d like pdac to explain that one.

[ExFlagMan]

How long into each session before these gravel strips turn into the 2024 version of the Silverstone 'Weavers Trench'.

Looks like the Austrian marshals will be faced with a lot of sweeping - hope the weather cools down for them.

[LolaB0860]

These new changes seem good at the first glance but my worry is that now that they have seemingly found a solution that could be implemented at every track (or so motorsport.com article says), they'll stop the recent positive trend of re-introducing more gravel traps in place of asphalt runoffs. Because I still always take proper gravel or grass over this kerb fix thing. BUT at least this is much better than the old crap system, especially at Red Bull Ring where everyone drove where ever they wanted and you had 500 penalties.

Edited by LolaB0860, 27 June 2024 - 11:50.

[Beri]

These new changes seem good at the first glance but my worry is that now that they have seemingly found a solution that could be implemented at every track (or so motorsport.com article says), they'll stop the recent positive trend of re-introducing more gravel traps in place of asphalt runoffs. Because I still always take proper gravel or grass over this kerb fix thing. BUT at least this is much better than the old crap system, especially at Red Bull Ring where everyone drove where ever they wanted and you had 500 penalties.

 

 

The (2023) Austrian GP featured no less than 1,200 separate track infringements

 

4 Ridiculous Stats From The 2023 Austrian Grand Prix Track Limits Debacle | News | CarThrottle

[LolaB0860]

4 Ridiculous Stats From The 2023 Austrian Grand Prix Track Limits Debacle | News | CarThrottle

Hmm yes

And Porsche Supercup usually has 25 of 30 drivers receiving post-session penalties or something ridiculous

[OO7]

The new gravel strip run offs and re-painted lines are working a treat so far for single seaters.

[Dolph]

I haven't seen any definitive pictures where the gravel will be placed, but just thinking about gravel traps at the end of the fastest straight in Formula One makes me shudder.

There is asphalt runoff to go directly straight.

[sketchy2001]

The new gravel strip run offs and re-painted lines are working a treat so far for single seaters.

 

As if by magic, drivers can suddenly remember how to drive on the circuit ;-)

[Beri]

There is asphalt runoff to go directly straight.

Which is a solution implemented first on Grade One circuits by Zandvoort. And it's a good one. The immediate trajectory ahead is asphalt, but further around the corner there is gravel. So if one goes off, the driver doesn't get any advantage but has to circumnavigate the gravel (via an escape route) to rejoin.

[Jackmancer]

The sprint race worked really well?

[AlexPrime]

The sprint race worked really well?

Yup, very happy 

[Heyli]

Piastri's lap deletion is just stupid.

 

The track limit rule should support in cases to avoid drivers abusing the track, because it gives an unfair advantage vs drivers not doing that and it's a safety risk. It's not about the white lines themselves!

 

When there is a natural deterrent, then there's just no need. Every driver can use the same track and if you go too far wide, you'll lose time (or you're off). If you still somehow to manage it on the milimeter and gaining time, then that's just great and you've managed it to perfection. This is just checking the rule for the rule itself and we dont need any of that...

 

Just ashame, they have such a simple/great solution and then they still turn track limits into a discussion point. Seriously nobody would have raised anything if they would've just let it be.

[OO7]

Piastri's lap deletion is just stupid.

 

The track limit rule should support in cases to avoid drivers abusing the track, because it gives an unfair advantage vs drivers not doing that and it's a safety risk. It's not about the white lines themselves!

 

When there is a natural deterrent, then there's just no need. Every driver can use the same track and if you go too far wide, you'll lose time (or you're off). If you still somehow to manage it on the milimeter and gaining time, then that's just great and you've managed it to perfection. This is just checking the rule for the rule itself and we dont need any of that...

 

Just ashame, they have such a simple/great solution and then they still turn track limits into a discussion point. Seriously nobody would have raised anything if they would've just let it be.

It supposedly happened at Turn 6, where the exit kerb width is as wide as, if not wider than the car.

[BRG]

As if by magic, drivers can suddenly remember how to drive on the circuit ;-)

Weird, isn't it?  It was SO difficult to see the white line and judge how to place the car but apparently it is easy to place your car within a couple of mm of the edge of the gravel. 

 

In the F3 race, nobody abused limits where there was gravel but the two corners with massive tarmac runoffs had cars all over them every lap.   But that must just be a coincidence surely?

[Beri]

Piastri's lap deletion is just stupid. [..]

Was he outside the white lines? Yes.

All there is need to be said.

[Heyli]

Was he outside the white lines? Yes.

All there is need to be said.

No, that's not all that needs to be said, which is why I chose to say a bit more. Feel free to disagree with that of course.

[Beri]

Track limits are the defined part in the rulebook. And those were violated.
So regardless of a "natural deterrent", track limits should be acknowledged. And they weren't. So its a clear cut case without any discussion possible in my opinion. It's beyond me that people simply skip over the fact that Piastri broke a rule and gets punished accordingly.

Edited by Beri, 29 June 2024 - 19:09.

[ANF]

The new gravel strip run offs and re-painted lines are working a treat so far for single seaters.

Yep, these gravel strips and narrower kerbs really is the way to go. They remind me of the old astroturf strips, but I think gravel is safer (especially in the wet) and probably more practical and also better for bikes.

The only slightly worrying incident I've seen this weekend is when Tsunoda got on the brakes after T9 with his left wheels in the gravel, and the car immediately swapped ends and he had a 180-degree spin across the track. It was only practice and only his tyres were damaged, but in a race he could have taken out three or four cars near the pit entry barrier.

Edited by ANF, 29 June 2024 - 19:21.

[Sterzo]

Track limits are the defined part in the rulebook. And those were violated.
So regardless of a "natural deterrent", track limits should be acknowledged. And they weren't. So its a clear cut case without any discussion possible in my opinion. It's beyond me that people simply skip over the fact that Piastri broke a rule and gets punished accordingly.

I thought that for years they'd been penalising drivers for "gaining an advantage" by exceeding track limits. There's been a mess of inconsistent decisions as a result, hence the reintroduction of circuit features which mean you don't gain an advantage and render penalties unnecessary.

[pdac]

No, that's not all that needs to be said, which is why I chose to say a bit more. Feel free to disagree with that of course.

 

The rule does not say that if you leave the track you must not gain an advantage. It says the car must stay on track at all time. It's then up to the race controller to decide what happens when you leave the track.

 

That's why I keep saying the rule needs to be consistent. Either it's fine to drive off the track as long as you don't gain an advantage - in which case, write the rule that way, or else there needs to be a definite penalty that is always applied - whether time is lost or not.

[F1 Mike]

You make a mistake, you go off track, you lose time.

Deleting laps was a means of preventing an unfair advantage by going off the track.

What is the actual point of deleting the lap if someone has gone off the edge of the track and lost time?

It's just job creation.

Do something useful!

[Heyli]

The rule does not say that if you leave the track you must not gain an advantage. It says the car must stay on track at all time. It's then up to the race controller to decide what happens when you leave the track.

 

That's why I keep saying the rule needs to be consistent. Either it's fine to drive off the track as long as you don't gain an advantage - in which case, write the rule that way, or else there needs to be a definite penalty that is always applied - whether time is lost or not.

That is what I said. OR at least what I intended to say....

[SenorSjon]

It makes it consistent and saves lot of discussions. Gaining an advantage is very subjective.

[Heyli]

It makes it consistent and saves lot of discussions. Gaining an advantage is very subjective.

But it doesnt have to be if they specify it before going into the weekend. If there is a natural deterrent, you simply assume there is no advantage to be gained. If there is no natural deterrent you monitor. 

 

The cases like now from Piastri where it appears he was quick despite being a milimeter outside are not really a problem, are they? 

[southernstars]

Track limits are the defined part in the rulebook. And those were violated.
So regardless of a "natural deterrent", track limits should be acknowledged. And they weren't. So its a clear cut case without any discussion possible in my opinion. It's beyond me that people simply skip over the fact that Piastri broke a rule and gets punished accordingly.

But *were they*? I've yet to see a single piece of clear, conclusive evidence showing all four wheels indidputably over the line.

[pdac]

You make a mistake, you go off track, you lose time.

Deleting laps was a means of preventing an unfair advantage by going off the track.

What is the actual point of deleting the lap if someone has gone off the edge of the track and lost time?

It's just job creation.

Do something useful!

 

Because that's not what the rule says.

[ARTGP]

But it doesnt have to be if they specify it before going into the weekend. If there is a natural deterrent, you simply assume there is no advantage to be gained. If there is no natural deterrent you monitor. 

 

The cases like now from Piastri where it appears he was quick despite being a milimeter outside are not really a problem, are they? 

 

Why create more work and subjectivity every weekend? There are knock on effects. If the white lines don't define the track boundary, then how do you determine that someone has been forced off in the race? 

 

The gravel did it's job. It reduced the number of incidents that needed to be reviewed. 

Edited by ARTGP, 30 June 2024 - 00:39.

[Heyli]

Why create more work and subjectivity every weekend? There are knock on effects. If the white lines don't define the track boundary, then how do you determine that someone has been forced off in the race?

The gravel did it's job. It reduced the number of incidents that needed to be reviewed.

It’s less work and there is no subjectivity. If there are natural deterrents, there is no need to police it.

Forcing off is a completely different topic.

The gravel is indeed doing It’s job, That’s our point!

[IrvTheSwerve]

The daft thing here is having a kerb big enough to go out of the track limits before getting near the physical deterrent. 

[Clrnc]

I thought Austria GP organisers did superbly well installing the gravel. That's a top solution and every circuit especially COTA should do the same.

 

And then get rid of track limits. We don't need those pedantic **** when you have gravel. Nobody is gaining an advantage intentionally going into gravel traps. 

[Beri]

But *were they*? I've yet to see a single piece of clear, conclusive evidence showing all four wheels indidputably over the line.

GPS usually says enough to the FIA. But to prevent any doubt, and to be absolutely sure that the GPS is correct and they do not have to justify to people like yourself, there are specialized cameras set up (other than the world feed ones) that help the stewards in this matter. These images are not broadcast but they are the defining factor.

[pdac]

GPS usually says enough to the FIA. But to prevent any doubt, and to be absolutely sure that the GPS is correct and they do not have to justify to people like yourself, there are specialized cameras set up (other than the world feed ones) that help the stewards in this matter. These images are not broadcast but they are the defining factor.

 

This is the crucial point. As long as those investigating were satisfied that the rule had been broken and the team in question did not (officially) protested the decision, then it's irrelevant what evidence was available or was used to make the judgement.

[SenorSjon]

It’s less work and there is no subjectivity. If there are natural deterrents, there is no need to police it.

Forcing off is a completely different topic.

The gravel is indeed doing It’s job, That’s our point!

Yes there is, always stay between the two white lines. Simple rule, so keep it simple. We don't want the era back when you had rules per corner differ per track as well.

[PlatenGlass]

It's not simply about what the rules currently state. Rules can be changed. I'm more interested in a wider discussion about the best solution to track limits. And using gravel as a deterrent seems to be a lot better than gravel + penalty.

[PayasYouRace]

I really don’t understand why people care when ruined laps also have their times deleted. It doesn’t matter. The laptime was going to put you at the back anyway.

[Beri]

This is the crucial point. As long as those investigating were satisfied that the rule had been broken and the team in question did not (officially) protested the decision, then it's irrelevant what evidence was available or was used to make the judgement.

Well, this is going around in circles. Because everyone knows a rule has been broken. Yet hardly anyone does acknowledge this, if one looks at the amount of discussion.
Yet it's something to reconsider to the nay sayers; the FIA has (way) more information than your detective work from a mere world feed source. If the FIA says Piastri was out of track limits, then just don't dispute it. Accept it as a given when the FIA says so. Because considering track limits, there is zero doubt that the FIA is right or not. They have been always right on that case since the current measures have been in place (specialized cameras combined with GPS and AI).

[TheFish]

Well, this is going around in circles. Because everyone knows a rule has been broken. Yet hardly anyone does acknowledge this, if one looks at the amount of discussion.
Yet it's something to reconsider to the nay sayers; the FIA has (way) more information than your detective work from a mere world feed source. If the FIA says Piastri was out of track limits, then just don't dispute it. Accept it as a given when the FIA says so. Because considering track limits, there is zero doubt that the FIA is right or not. They have been always right on that case since the current measures have been in place (specialized cameras combined with GPS and AI).

There is always doubt if the FIA are right or not.

 

On this occasion, I think they are right, but they are often wrong so it would be foolish to accept their decision without question.

[Beri]

Regarding track limits there really is no doubt, considering the technology in place. The FIA has always been bang on since then. If you still doubt this, then black will always be white to you.

[PlatenGlass]

I really don’t understand why people care when ruined laps also have their times deleted. It doesn’t matter. The laptime was going to put you at the back anyway.

It's not just that. It's also that Piastri had a lap deleted because seemingly the gravel wasn't close enough to the track. Plus you can touch the gravel and still not ruin your lap completely.

[PayasYouRace]

It's not just that. It's also that Piastri had a lap deleted because seemingly the gravel wasn't close enough to the track. Plus you can touch the gravel and still not ruin your lap completely.

That’s an odd take to me. It was deleted because he went off track. It’s not surprising that you don’t necessary lose much time just touching the edge of the gravel trap.

[F1 Mike]

Because that's not what the rule says.

I'm not questioning the need to implement rules and regulations, I'm questioning the need for those rules when a physical replacement for them has been introduced.

Why delete a laptime completely when time has already been lost during the transgression? It's fluff for no reason.

[JimmyClark]

That’s an odd take to me. It was deleted because he went off track. It’s not surprising that you don’t necessary lose much time just touching the edge of the gravel trap.

 

To me that's part of the skill of 'pushing the limits' when there is a physical deterrant there - if you push it so much that you kiss it, but somehow don't lose time, then that should be rewarded, not punished*. That's the kind of thing that got me into F1 in the first place. Deleting a laptime instead just feels soulless, the same feeling I got when I saw Denmark's goal chalked off yesterday pretty much because the striker's foot happened to be bigger than the defender's. To much tech and precision is ruining what sport should be about. 

 

(*obviously this is only applicable in corners with these physcial deterrents, as I'm one of the most voiciferous of us who hate seeing drivers get off scot free for going wide on asphalted corners). 

Edited by JimmyClark, 30 June 2024 - 11:24.

[Heyli]

To me that's part of the skill of 'pushing the limits' when there is a physical deterrant there - if you push it so much that you kiss it, but somehow don't lose time, then that should be rewarded, not punished*. That's the kind of thing that got me into F1 in the first place. Deleting a laptime instead just feels soulless, the same feeling I got when I saw Denmark's goal chalked off yesterday pretty much because the striker's foot happened to be bigger than the defender's. To much tech and precision is ruining what sport should be about. 

 

(*obviously this is only applicable in corners with these physcial deterrents, as I'm one of the most voiciferous of us who hate seeing drivers get off scot free for going wide on asphalted corners). 

Just imagine them starting to penalize in Monaco when you kiss the barier.... Those shots are awesome!

[pdac]

Just imagine them starting to penalize in Monaco when you kiss the barier.... Those shots are awesome!

 

If you kiss the barrier, you're not going off track. Just like if you touch the white line, you're not going off track.