15 replies to this topic

[evo]

Hey folks,

 

Have there been any videos of the supposed test Henri Toivonen did with the Lancia in 1986 in Estoril?

 

Among other articles and threads on the internet, this is the one from 2002 (http://forums.autosp...eugeot-205-t16/) among other ones no doubt, and also this article from Red Bull that came out in 2013 (http://www.redbull.c...loring-the-myth)

 

Cheers

 

[PayasYouRace]

If there was I think the whole myth of being 5th/6th on the F1 grid on pace would have been busted years ago.

[evo]

which is why I was hoping the internet had something, with youtube and all that..

[Fulcrum]

 

There is a story that Henri Toivonen drove a Lancia rally car around the Estoril circuit in 1986 in a time that would have put him sixth on the grid for that year's Portuguese Grand Prix. Is this true? asked Matti Orava from Finland

I think this one comes under the heading of "urban myth". The Finnish rally driver Henri Toivonen was undoubtedly exceedingly quick in the Lancia Delta he was driving back then - sadly, he and his co-driver were killed in an accident in one later in 1986, leading to a ban on the high-performance Group B "supercars" the following season. However, it seems impossible that a rally car, however fast, would be able to match the speeds of an F1 car at a purpose-built circuit like Estoril. I did find one report on the internet that seems to disprove the theory: apparently Cesare Fiorio, the Lancia team's manager at the time, was asked about the story on a TV programme not long ago. He said: "Honestly, that's the first time I hear about that thing, and considering I did manage that team and that driver I assume I should know if it happened."

Read more at http://en.espnf1.com...QLtsJ34qu5SU.99

[scheivlak]

Discussed a few years ago - I vaguely remember the conclusion that he really did that time at Estoril, but on a much shorter circuit than the one used at the F1 GP..........

 

Years later somebody must have seen that time thinking "Hey, that time would give him 5th or so in the F1 field" and the myth started.

[PayasYouRace]

Discussed a few years ago - I vaguely remember the conclusion that he really did that time at Estoril, but on a much shorter circuit than the one used at the F1 GP..........

 

Years later somebody must have seen that time thinking "Hey, that time would give him 5th or so in the F1 field" and the myth started.

 

I think I remember that discussion.

Estoril has (had?) two short variations. Both are straight on at T3. One would then turn left and join at T7, for the section at the top of the circuit where they later build the corkscrew. The other went back along the straight from T7 towards T6, and then cut across to the left and rejoined at the Parabolica.

[SophieB]

Having spoken to the Nostalgia Forum mods, I am going to move this into their domain where it is better suited.

Edited by SophieB, 14 July 2014 - 08:33.
And here we are!

[Tim Murray]

Here's an earlier TNF thread:

http://forums.autosp...118-at-estoril/

[nmansellfan]

To add a bit more for comparison between the Delta S4 and the GP cars of the time, the pole time for the 1986 ETCC 500km Estoril was 1m 47.36, set by Walkinshaw / Percy in a TWR Rover SD1 Vitesse.  The Rover was RWD, had about 340 BHP and weighed maybe 1200Kg  In 1988 the pole time was 1m44.33 by Hahne / Allam in a Sierra RS500, RWD, 520BHP and 1100Kg.  Downforce levels for both cars were likely a bit lower than the Delta S4, even for the whale tailed Sierra.

 

Personally I reckon the Delta with Henri at the wheel, with the longest gearing available to get top speed down the S/F straight (top end on the longest ratio maybe 140mph?), no co-driver and a tarmac setup, could have got into the late 1m30's in the dry (and not much slower in the wet!)  Still an age from a dry '85-'86 F1 qualifying time, but would have been impressive to watch.

 

One way to approximate it would be for someone to set a laptime in a sim such as Rfactor - I think the S4 is available as a mod somewhere, but i'm not sure how accurate the physics are.

 

Thanks to Frank de Jongs excellent website for the ETCC car and time data 

Edited by nmansellfan, 14 July 2014 - 12:20.

[BRG]

It's a nonsense.  The S4 had similar power to F1, but weighed a bit more, had far less downforce and the aerodynamics of a brick (compared to a single seater).  No way it could match a F1 car round Estoril.  Over the Col de Turini, yes!

Edited by BRG, 14 July 2014 - 14:26.

[john aston]

It wouldn't see which way a Sierra Cosworth went either....Or an F3 car , come to that. 

[evo]

The main reason (apart from intrigue) was this extract from the redbull article,

 

 

However, it seems there is some truth in the Toivonen tale. We tracked down eloquent Italian Ninni Russo, team manager of Lancia’s WRC squad in the 80s, whose word is surely as good as it gets.

Russo told redbull.com: “In 1986 Rally de Portugal did not use the Estoril circuit as a stage – that came in 1987. But I have made some calls for you and talked with some friends and someone from Portugal who was helping Lancia for this event.

 

“A few weeks before the rally, on the full circuit, there was a test. It was a private test and Henri made a time – it is difficult to say now exactly the time – but it was in the first ten of the F1 cars from their test at Estoril two or three weeks before. ..."

 

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone has any data relating to that particular test.

[BRG]

"..it is difficult to say now exactly the time "

 

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone has any data relating to that particular test.

Classic urban myth material.  No hard data, just a wild and completely unsubstantiated claim.  If there had really been such an impressive time, you can bet your boots that Signor Russo would have had chapter and verse, timing sheets, video evidence and all the rest.  AFAIK, Toivonen never made this claim and you might imagine that he would have had it been true.

[D-Type]

Like many myths, the key point is people want to believe it.

[john aston]

I am surprised that this daft story still has legs. Let me give an example - at my local circuit , Croft , the outright lap record is held by an F3 car and is in the 1.13 region. A 700 bhp turbo Focus on slicks ,built and   set up solely for circuit racing, can lap in the low 1.20s   . An F1 car(and how much would I pay to see that ?) would probably be around the 1 minute mark or quicker still. A 550bhp 4wd rally car with suspension suitable for the road  ? I'd guess high 20s with a following wind , frankly ....

[Michael Ferner]

Duncan has nailed it. When people want to believe in something, they pretty much switch off reason, that's why so many myths survive. It's astounding how many otherwise intelligent people keep recycling this sort of BS by refusing to think about it just for a moment or two. Reminds me of my "favourite" myth, Sig Haugdahl and the "three-mile-a-minute" Wisconsin Special, which in truth would've been hard pressed to do two in 60 seconds.