12 replies to this topic

[ForzaGilles]

Hi all,

 

I have been doing some research regarding the history of the World Sportscar Championship and have noticed that points, and therefore championships, were not awarded to drivers until 1981. I was wondering if anyone has worked out who would have been champion in previous seasons had points been awarded to drivers.

 

Thanks

Al

[D-Type]

I remember someone tried it a couple of years ago on another website (Ten-Tenths?).  He had a major problem dealing with teams swapping drivers between cars.  Two drivers is straightforward - you give each of them either 8 points or 4 points (1/2 of 8) for a win.  But what when a pair of drivers are transferred to another car giving a car four drivers: do you award each one 8 points or 2 points (1/4 of 8)?  Then there's where a driver drove more than one of the cars in the points: does he get points for both cars or just for the higher placed one?  How do you deal with a driver who is listed to drive a car, or who is one of a pair of drivers transferred over ( as some race regulations required), and he didn't drive that particular car?  Or the case of Ed Hugus at Le Mans in 1965, where he wasn't officially listed as co-driving the winning car but he probably did have a spell at the wheel?

 

Make your rules, draw up a spreadsheet, open up Martin Krejki's WSRP site (the most accurate and complete set of sports car results on the web), and spend a coulple of evenings working it out.  Then please tell us what the results you worked up were.

[scheivlak]

I just remembered that I did something like this years ago on a winter night - and look, I found those files!

I took the 1953-1972 seasons, I think I stopped after 1972 because I went to bed and forgot about it since 

 

For 1953-1960 I gave 8-6-4-3-2-1 points for each driver. There was something to be said to keep it 8-6-4-3-2 but, strictly speaking, then I should have researched who did the fastest lap in that race for that final point.... Anyway, that 6th place point didn't have much influence on final standings of that year.

From 1961 onwards I gave every driver of a top-6 car 9-6-4-3-2-1.

 

From what I've seen there were remarkably few double point finishing drives, I think I gave it only to the top result of a driver in that case.

 

Anyway, this what my top 3 of every year looked like (all based on Martin's site and I didn't check it today - some mistakes possible, I guess) :

 

1953: 1. Farina 16; 2/3. Fangio, Parnell 14

1954: 1. Maglioli, Trintignant 16; 3. Farina, Lloyd, Moss, Ascari, Gonzalez, Hawthorn 8

1955: 1. Moss 25; 2. Fangio 18; 3. Hawthorn 16

1956: 1. Castelotti 22; 2. Ph. Hill 18; 3. Fangio 17

1957: 1. Collins 25; 2. Moss, Behra 22

1958: 1. Gendebien 32; 2. Ph. Hill 30; 3. Collins 25

1959: 1. Gendebien, Ph. Hill 18; 3. Moss, Fairman, Shelby 16

1960: 1. Gendebien 26; 2. Hermann 19; 3. Ph. Hill, Bonnier 18

1961: 1. Gendebien 31; 2. Von Trips 19; 3. Ph. Hill 18

1962: 1. Gendebien 33; 2. Ph. Hill 30; 3. R.Rodriguez 24

1963: 1. Bandini 30; 2. Scarfiotti 24; 3. Abate 19

1964: 1. G. Hill (!) 33; 2. Bonnier 26; 3. Vaccarella 24

1965: 1. Surtees 21; 2. K. Miles 19; 3. Sharp, Guichet 18

1966: 1. K. Miles 24; 2. Ruby, Parkes 18

1967: 1. Amon 24; 2. Scarfiotti 22; 3. Siffert 21

1968: 1. Hermann 38; 2. Siffert, Elford 37

1969: 1. Siffert 54; 2. Redman 49; 3. Ahrens 27

1970: 1. P. Rodriguez, Kinnunen 45; 3. Siffert, Redman 42

1971: 1. P. Rodriguez 51; 2. De Adamich 41; 3. Siffert 39

1972: 1. Ickx 60; 2. Peterson, Schenken 50

 

I'll leave the next years to you   

[Vitesse2]

Nothing surprising about Graham Hill in 1964: it was without doubt one of the best years of his career, in all forms of racing. Missed a second World Championship by a whisker, beat a class field at Longford in an old Brabham, excellent year in sports cars and even a couple of decent finishes in F2 ('Unknown Australian beats Hill'). It just happened that - having done a lot of saloon racing in 1963 - he switched to sports cars instead. Given the dominance of Clark and the Lotus Cortina that was probably a fortuitious change!

[scheivlak]

Yes, I gave that (!) just to show how versatile he was, scoring points like that as a non-, or at best, semi-works driver.

[robjohn]

An interesting list, scheiviak. Did you award points on every race or follow the system for the marques? Up to 1961 (I don't know about later), points went to marques for their best three or four finishes of the year, depending on the number of rounds. Best four in 1953, '54, '55, '57, '58; best three in '56, '59, '60, '61.

 

Your one point for sixth place was authentic, surely, at least for 1953-61.

 

Anyone doing this should remember that in 1954 the TT results were officially on handicap but championship points went on the scratch results, so Hawthorn+Trint were the winners for our purposes. I haven't looked at the way the WRSP site handles this.

Rob B

Edited by robjohn, 10 August 2014 - 11:04.

[scheivlak]

An interesting list, scheiviak. Did you award points on every race or follow the system for the marques? Up to 1961 (I don't know about later), points went to marques for their best three or four finishes of the year, depending on the number of rounds. Best four in 1953, '54, '55, '57, '58; best three in '56, '59, '60, '61.

 

Your one point for sixth place was authentic, surely, at least for 1953-61.

 

Anyone doing this should remember that in 1954 the TT results were officially on handicap but championship points went on the scratch results, so Hawthorn+Trint were the winners for our purposes. I haven't looked at the way the WRSP site handles this.

Rob B

Hawthorn/Trintignant were the 1954 TT winners on Martin's site, so I have used that result.

 

I didn't scratch points to be honest.

Pre-1958 that wouldn't have made much difference - Collins would have ended on 24 points in 1957, that's all.

 

Revised 1958 standings with only the four best results: 1. Gendebien 28; 2. Ph. Hill 27; 3. Collins 25.

Even with only the best three results counting the 1959 table would have remained the same (as was the case for 1956).

Revised 1960 standings with only the three best results: 1. Gendebien 22; 2. Hermann 19; Ph. Hill, Bonnier 18.

Revised 1961 standings with only the three best results: 1. Gendebien 27; 2. Von Trips 19; Ph. Hill 18.

 

Not much difference as you will see.....

[robjohn]

Thanks, sheiviak. Very little difference, but good to know.

My source for the points system was Cyril Posthumus's book on the first era of the series, to 1961.

By scratch results, I meant placings 'on the road' – pure distance covered. I see the WSRP site does give the 1954 TT results on positions in that way, which is correct for the championship.
The actual trophy winners were Loreau and Armagnac in a 745cc DB Panhard.

Rob B

[robjohn]

I forgot to mention another quirk noted in the Posthumus book: reduced points were awarded for two relatively short races in the 'first era'.
1958 TT: 4, 3, 2, 1.
1961 Pescara: 4, 3, 2, 1½, 1 and ½.

Rob B

[D-Type]

What surprises me is that Moss doesn't figure more strongly in his era - you think of his three consecutive Nurburgring results for example.  This reflects the strength and consistency of the Ferrari team and their lead drivers Gendebien & Phil Hill Hill (and to an extent, Peter Collins).

Edited by D-Type, 15 August 2014 - 10:34.

[Roger Clark]

Time and Two Seats contains hypothetical drivers championships using a scoring method of 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1.  The winners are:

 

1953 1 Farina; 2 Parnell; 3 Fangio

1954: 1 Trintingnant; 2 Maglioli; 3 Musso

1955: 1 Moss; 2 Fangio; 3 Hawthorn (he says kling but Hawthorn has more points)

1956: 1= Castellotti, Moss; 3 Collins

1957:  1 Collins; 2 Moss; 3 Behra

1958: 1 Gendebien; 2 P Hill; 3 Musso

1959: 1= Gendebien, P Hill, 3= Fairman, Moss

1960 1 Gendebien; 2 Hermann; 3 Moss

1961: 1 Gendebien; 2 Mairesse; 3= P&R Rodriguez, von Trips

1962: 1 Gendebien; 2 P Hill; 3 P Rodriguez

1963: 1 Hermann; 2 Barth; 3 Abate

1964: 1 Scarfiotti; 2 G Hill; 3 Barth

1965: 1 Mitter; 2 Scarfiotti; 3 Piper

1966: 1 Mitter; 2 Hermann; 3 Scarfiotti

1967: 1= Mitter, Hawkins, Siffert

1968: 1 Hermann; 2 Neerpasch; 3 Elford

1969: 1 Siffert; 2 Redman; 3= Elford, Hermann

1970 1= Rodriguez, Kinnunen; 3 Siffert

1971: 1 Rodriguez; 2 de Adamich; 3 Siffert

1972: 1 Ickx; 2= Schenken, Peterson

1973 1= Larrousse, Pescarolo; 3= Ickx, Redman

1974 1 Larrousse; 2 Jarier; 3 Pescarolo

1975: 1 Merzario; 2 Bell; 3 Pescarolo

1976 1 Mass; 2 Ickx; 3 joest

1977: 1 Merzario,; 2 V Brambilla; 3 Ickx

 

I haven't checked any of this!

[robjohn]

These tables are interesting, and D-type read them well in his points about Gendebien and Ferrari.
But we can't treat them in the same way as those of the F1 drivers' championship.
First, the small number of races, even in sheiviak's first list counting all results. Farina tops the 1953 count on the basis of two race results. Second, co-drivers are flattered. Bill Lloyd and Jack Fairman are highly placed (in 1954 and '59 respectively) thanks to three brilliant drives by Moss.
Rob B

[ForzaGilles]

All the info provided has been great.
Much appreciated.