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Biggest "what ifs" in F1?


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#1 DavidHeath461

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 21:52

I'm talking about the ones that changed the F1 universe.

What if Senna had lived?
What if Gachot had not got into an altercation with that cab driver?
What if Alesi had decided to join Williams instead of Ferrari?

Edited by DavidHeath461, 11 August 2014 - 21:53.


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#2 Ducks

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 21:53

What if Alonso had stayed at McLaren?

 

I think he could have been 4/5 times WDC now.



#3 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 21:56

What if there was a go-kart track where I live and my parents could afford to send me karting?

 

I think I could have been a 4 times WDC now.  :p



#4 Risil

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 21:58

The problem I have with What Ifs is that I barely know what did happen, let alone what might've done.


Edited by Risil, 11 August 2014 - 21:58.


#5 Disgrace

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 21:58

What if Damon Hill had been driving in F1 during his 20s?



#6 Risil

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:01

Disgrace, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:58, said:

What if Damon Hill had been driving in F1 during his 20s?

 

I thought you wrote during the 20s at first. Perhaps he could've met Raymond Mays and persuaded him to keep an eye out for a young moustachioed rowing enthusiast.



#7 bourbon

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:05

What if Prost had competed in '94...



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:09

Risil, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:01, said:

I thought you wrote during the 20s at first. Perhaps he could've met Raymond Mays and persuaded him to keep an eye out for a young moustachioed rowing enthusiast.

 

But where would he source 1.21 Gigawatts back in the 20s to get back to the present?

 

Of course, it all makes sense. Mays would have passed the message onto Graham, who then drove for Lotus, which was owned by Chapman, who got involved with DeLorean. Isn't it suspicous how grey Damon got after he retired?



#9 SCEPurple

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:11

What if Red Bulls had been very, very slow during 2010-14

#10 scheivlak

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:13

Ducks, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:53, said:

What if Alonso had stayed at McLaren?

 

I think he could have been 4/5 times WDC now.

There were some pretty good reasons why he only stayed there one year. Apart from that, it's possible that he would have lost out again to Lewis in 2008 and I can only imagine how he would have felt then with that POS early 2009 car.

 

OK, this is not a very gentle answer but I can see a 1000+ post thread starting from here with quite a lot of nonsense and wishful thinking because the "ifs" in F1 are endless (Murray Walker told us something about that) - what if Clark had not died, what if Rindt had not died, what if Gilles.... what if Colin...... what if Michael in 2007 etc. etc. - but even then Alonso staying all those years at McLaren does not make much sense.



#11 Burai

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:20

What if Williams had kept Mansell for 1995 and Coulthard had gone to McLaren?

 

What if Lotus hadn't listened to Senna and signed Warwick instead of Dumfries?

 

What if Panis didn't crash in Montreal?



#12 Rob

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:32

Disgrace, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:58, said:

What if Damon Hill had been driving in F1 during his 20s?

 

What if Damon had stayed in bike racing? I've heard some people say he showed a lot of promise on a bike - possibly more promise than he showed during his early car racing days.



#13 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:33

Ducks, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:53, said:

What if Alonso had stayed at McLaren?
 
I think he could have been 4/5 times WDC now.

I don't see that unless it would have made the car six tenths faster. A McLaren did win in 2008 so he could have won that, but when else? 2010 was close, but Alonso made as many mistakes in his Ferrari as Hamilton did in his McLaren. McLaren wouldn't really have been a step up. If he had the same reliability as McLaren in 2012 he would have had no chance.

#14 SpartanChas

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:34

What if Hamilton had come 6th at Brazil 08? Completely different career for Felipe!

#15 crbassassin

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:40

What if Max Mosley had never became the FIA president.

 

McLaren could've won the 1999 WCC

McLaren could've won both world championships

Alonso could've been a 4 time champ


Edited by crbassassin, 11 August 2014 - 22:46.


#16 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:41

DavidHeath461, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:52, said:

I'm talking about the ones that changed the F1 universe.

What if Senna had lived?

There must be a million posts out there on this but 30 points down after three races - it would have been interesting. Assuming all the bans and disqualifications didn't come Schumacher's way it could have been interesting because I think the Williams did become better than the Benetton later in the season. Senna should have been able to take 1995 in that Williams and clearly 1996, but then it depends how long he would have stayed and where he would have gone etc. The further you go on, the more speculative it becomes. But also, I don't think Hill or Coulthard would have had such successful careers. Coulthard might not have done anything. Hill would have got a few results from Senna's retirements etc. and then been demoted down the grid quite quickly for not being good enough.
 

Quote

What if Gachot had not got into an altercation with that cab driver?

I don't know if Schumacher was heading to F1 or not at that stage. Motor racing in general isn't very meritocratic, and it's perfectly possible that potentially great drivers are being missed all the time.
 

Quote

What if Alesi had decided to join Williams instead of Ferrari?

This came up the other day. I think he would have beaten Patrese/Hill in 1992/3 but not Mansell/Prost, so it depends on who his team-mate was.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 11 August 2014 - 22:44.


#17 garoidb

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:42

SpartanChas, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:34, said:

What if Hamilton had come 6th at Brazil 08? Completely different career for Felipe!

 

And Lewis.



#18 sennafan24

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:44

Ducks, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:53, said:

What if Alonso had stayed at McLaren?

 

I think he could have been 4/5 times WDC now.

Nah, 3 times 

 

2008 is the only one I think he would have converted, and maybe an outside chance of 2010.

 

2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013? No bloody chance


Edited by sennafan24, 11 August 2014 - 22:56.


#19 Burai

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:47

PlatenGlass, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:41, said:

 
I don't know if Schumacher was heading to F1 or not at that stage. Motor racing in general isn't very meritocratic, and it's perfectly possible that potentially great drivers are being missed all the time.

 

I'd imagine he would have found himself in JJ Lehto's seat at Sauber in 1993 if no-one had snapped him up sooner.



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#20 R Soul

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:48

What if turbos had not been banned?



#21 George Costanza

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:49

What if... Jim Clark did not die? What if Michael Schumacher did not go to Ferrari? What if Fernando Alonso went to Red Bull? And had Ayrton lived?

#22 sennafan24

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:53

George Costanza, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:49, said:

What if Fernando Alonso went to Red Bull? 

He probably would have matched Schumi's record by now 

 

2009. 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 = 5 + the 2 he already has.



#23 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:53

George Costanza, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:49, said:

What if... Jim Clark did not die? What if Michael Schumacher did not go to Ferrari? What if Fernando Alonso went to Red Bull? And had Ayrton lived?

I'd like to suggest an amendment to one what if by you...

What if Schumacher had joined Williams in '96, joined McLaren in '98, joined Ferrari on the up later? As drivers used to switch teams before even in late 80's and early 90's, That would have been fun.



#24 crbassassin

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:55

R Soul, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:48, said:

What if turbos had not been banned?

Power wise, the FIA could've down-sized the engines to negate the increase in engine power.



#25 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:55

sennafan24, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:44, said:

Nah, 3 times 

 

2008 is the only one I think he would have converted, and maybe an outside chance of 2010.

 

2008, 2011, 2012 and 2013? No bloody chance

May be i misunderstood, but surely you meant some other year?

 

In 2011, McLaren was feeling that their drivers weren't getting the most out of their package... (a withdrawn interview is the source), but it is backed by how close McLaren was to RBR finally, merely 40 odd points was the difference.



#26 givemeabettercar

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:56

What if they hadn't stopped the race in Montreal 2011(Koba could have won, as he was started the race on wets and didn't stop when others did, and was 2nd when the race was stoppe)

 

What if it wasn't for Grosjean in Spa 2012? could have done with a Koba podium and Alonso WDC



#27 sennafan24

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:58

garagetinkerer, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:55, said:

May be i misunderstood, but surely you meant some other year?

 

In 2011, McLaren was feeling that their drivers weren't getting the most out of their package... (a withdrawn interview is the source), but it is backed by how close McLaren was to RBR finally, merely 40 odd points was the difference.

2009

 

Yeah, but Button was firing on optimum that year, and Webber was dire. Hence why the gap was only 40.

 

Alonso might have gotten a little closer than Button, but he was not catching Seb.



#28 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 22:58

crbassassin, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:40, said:

What if Max Mosley had never became the FIA president.

 

McLaren could've won the 1999 WCC

McLaren could've won both world championships

Alonso could've been a 4 time champ

More drivers would have had accidents rendering them bed-ridden, if not dead. That man alone is responsible for a lot of safety measures which we take for granted in the sport nowadays. He pushed them on the teams, as the teams all kicked and screamed. All his bedroom shenanigans aside, he did the sport some good. I could say more in his defence, but that's a good start i think.



#29 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:00

SpartanChas, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:34, said:

What if Hamilton had come 6th at Brazil 08? Completely different career for Felipe!

Completely different in that he would have finished up as a world champion. But not completely different in any other way. He would have still only been an OK driver, who might still have ended up partnered with someone much better than him (like Alonso). But he probably would have psychologically been more at ease and coped with it better.

What if Irvine had scraped the 1999 title? Not much. He would have been a world champion, but he would have still disappeared off the face of the Earth soon after with little or no more success.

#30 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:00

sennafan24, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:58, said:

2009

 

Yeah, but Button was firing on optimum that year, and Webber was dire. Hence why the gap was only 40.

 

Alonso might have gotten a little closer than Button, but he was not catching Seb.

Geoff McGrath, from MAT also thought so, with respect to one who shall not be named :p . I think McLaren had a fairly good chance at constructors that year.

 

Also, i wouldn't say Webber was dire. It was more the other, one who shall not be named, was on fire.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 11 August 2014 - 23:01.


#31 sennafan24

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:04

garagetinkerer, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:00, said:

Geoff McGrath, from MAT also thought so, with respect to one who shall not be named :p . I think McLaren had a fairly good chance at constructors that year.

 

Also, i wouldn't say Webber was dire. It was more the other, one who shall not be named, was on fire.

Vettel was good that year, no question. But Button was in the form of his life and could not come close (112 points). Alonso might have trimmed that a bit, but not caught him.

 

Webber was dire, he admitted he could not grasp the tyres that year.



#32 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:04

garagetinkerer, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:58, said:

More drivers would have had accidents rendering them bed-ridden, if not dead. That man alone is responsible for a lot of safety measures which we take for granted in the sport nowadays. He pushed them on the teams, as the teams all kicked and screamed. All his bedroom shenanigans aside, he did the sport some good. I could say more in his defence, but that's a good start i think.

I think it would have happened anyway after Imola 1994. He just happened to be the man in charge at the time. F1 was in the spotlight, the drivers were going on about the dangers, and Sauber introduced the side protection way before it became mandatory. It was all going to happen.

However, without Mosley, we might have not had grooved tyres, and might have had someone in charge that was interested in overtaking so we wouldn't have ended up with DRS all those years later.

#33 George Costanza

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:04

What if Kimi was a little luckier in his McLaren days? And what if Kimi never signed with Ferrari? What if Fernando went to Ferrari in 2007?

#34 scheivlak

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:05

garagetinkerer, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:55, said:

May be i misunderstood, but surely you meant some other year?

 

In 2011, McLaren was feeling that their drivers weren't getting the most out of their package... (a withdrawn interview is the source), but it is backed by how close McLaren was to RBR finally, merely 40 odd points was the difference.

Do I miss something here?

At the end of 2011 the difference between Vettel and the nearest McLaren driver (Button) was 122 points (we're talking about WDC chances here) and the difference between Red Bull and McLaren in the WCC standings was 153 points.

 

Or do you mean 2010? But in that year Fernando was closer to Vettel in his Ferrari than any of the McLaren drivers.



#35 Spillage

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:07

PlatenGlass, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:41, said:

This came up the other day. I think he would have beaten Patrese/Hill in 1992/3 but not Mansell/Prost, so it depends on who his team-mate was.

D'you think Alesi was better than Hill? I'm not so sure he was. Hill's record compared to Prost is better than Alesi's, although of course Prost was a lot older when he faced Damon. With Alesi I think it all comes down, as you say, to how long he would have stayed at Williams and whom he would have been facing in the other car. Supposing he'd been facing Mansell/Prost/Senna then the only way I think he could have won the title is after Imola '94 - if he'd been at the team for that long.

 

More OT, I think the question posed by the OP almost drowns in the possible answers. You could make a serious 'what-if' out of each of the following drivers:

Alberto Ascari

Luigi Musso

Peter Collins

Taffy Von Trips

Stirling Moss

Ricardo Rodriquez

Peter Arundell

Jim Clark

Piers Courage

Bruce Mclaren

Pedro Rodriguez

Jochen Rindt

Francois Cevert

Tom Pryce

Ronnie Peterson

Tony Brise

Patrick Depailler

Gilles Villeneuve

Stefan Bellof

Ayrton Senna

Olivier Panis

Robert Kubica

Felipe Massa

 

..all of whom died or suffered career-derailing accidents when you'd have tipped them to go on to achieve varying degrees of further success. It is actually quite breathtaking to think just how much talent has been robbed from F1 by tragedy.

 

Perhaps a good example is Dan Gurney, though. Took Porsche's only GP victory in 1962 and then moved to Brabham for the following year. He proved faster than his boss and outscored him in 1964, then outscored both Brabham and Hulme in 1965. At the end of that season he decided to leave to form his own Eagle project.. and won just one race whilst the Brabham team went on to win both the 1966 and 1967 World Championships. Sadly often overlooked nowadays, but probably one of the best drivers never to win a World Championship.



#36 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:10

DavidHeath461, on 11 Aug 2014 - 21:52, said:

I'm talking about the ones that changed the F1 universe.

What if Senna had lived?
What if Gachot had not got into an altercation with that cab driver?
What if Alesi had decided to join Williams instead of Ferrari?

Those are great ones, and to go with it what if Schumacher had not burnt out his clutch at his first race? What if Heidfeld had not run his tyres past the thread in Hungary 2007 influencing Hamilton to do the same at China thus winning the championship in his first year of F1. What if the '84 race at Monaco had been run a bit longer and Senna had not crashed in '88 and not died in '94 how many Monaco's could he have had?



#37 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:10

Spillage, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:07, said:

D'you think Alesi was better than Hill? I'm not so sure he was. Hill's record compared to Prost is better than Alesi's, although of course Prost was a lot older when he faced Damon. With Alesi I think it all comes down, as you say, to how long he would have stayed at Williams and whom he would have been facing in the other car. Supposing he'd been facing Mansell/Prost/Senna then the only way I think he could have won the title is after Imola '94 - if he'd been at the team for that long.

I think Prost was coasting for much of 1993 - either that or just not that fast any more, and I think Senna or Schumacher would have had him comfortably beaten. I think Alesi would have beaten Hill in 1993, but arguably in later years Hill would have overcome him.

#38 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:13

scheivlak, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:13, said:

There were some pretty good reasons why he only stayed there one year. Apart from that, it's possible that he would have lost out again to Lewis in 2008 and I can only imagine how he would have felt then with that POS early 2009 car.

 

OK, this is not a very gentle answer but I can see a 1000+ post thread starting from here with quite a lot of nonsense and wishful thinking because the "ifs" in F1 are endless (Murray Walker told us something about that) - what if Clark had not died, what if Rindt had not died, what if Gilles.... what if Colin...... what if Michael in 2007 etc. etc. - but even then Alonso staying all those years at McLaren does not make much sense.

If Michael had of stayed thru 2007 what an amazing year that could've been!



#39 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:17

This thread is a good example of what I have been saying for a while, the sport is 70% circumstances which are often non-representing of skill and 30% talent. Prost could've been an 8 times champion just as easily as Schumacher based on circumstances and skill but not skill alone.


Edited by Juan Kerr, 11 August 2014 - 23:18.


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#40 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:17

scheivlak, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:05, said:

Do I miss something here?

At the end of 2011 the difference between Vettel and the nearest McLaren driver (Button) was 122 points (we're talking about WDC chances here) and the difference between Red Bull and McLaren in the WCC standings was 153 points.

 

Or do you mean 2010? But in that year Fernando was closer to Vettel in his Ferrari than any of the McLaren drivers.

My bad... :p  :up:



#41 sennafan24

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:19

Juan Kerr, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:17, said:

This thread is a good example of what I have been saying for a while, the sport is 70% circumstances which are often non-representing of skill and 30% talent. 

Articulated perfectly  :up:



#42 discover23

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:37

What if Lewis had obeyed the team rules in Hungary qualifying 07 ?

#43 FBJim

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:40

Burai, on 11 Aug 2014 - 22:20, said:

What if Lotus hadn't listened to Senna and signed Warwick instead of Dumfries?

 

What if Warwick had signed for Williams in 1985 instead of Mansell?



#44 Tsarwash

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:43

Here's a good one; What if Bernie had never become involved in F1 ? What would it be like now ?

#45 Thomas99

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:44

Webber didn't crash at Korea 2010.

Grosjean didn't take Alonso out at Spa 2012.



#46 Risil

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:44

Tsarwash, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:43, said:

Here's a good one; What if Bernie had never become involved in F1 ? What would it be like now ?

 

They'd all be wielding clubs and driving around in cars made of rocks like the cavemen from Wacky Races, apparently.


Edited by Risil, 11 August 2014 - 23:45.


#47 crbassassin

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:49

Juan Kerr, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:10, said:

What if the '84 race at Monaco had been run a bit longer?

 

Stefan Bellof would've won, and Alain Prost would've been the champion.


Edited by crbassassin, 11 August 2014 - 23:54.


#48 crbassassin

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 23:52

discover23, on 11 Aug 2014 - 23:37, said:

What if Lewis had obeyed the team rules in Hungary qualifying 07 ?

 

Alonso would've been world champion, even if he had finished 2nd. And with it, he would go into 2008 with his mind at ease and win the WDC too.

 

We wouldn't be hearing about "spygate"


Edited by crbassassin, 11 August 2014 - 23:56.


#49 Farhannn15

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 00:03

What if Webber joined Renault instead of Williams



#50 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 00:09

what if McLaren had any grain of sense in China in '07.

what if Webber decided to concede position in Singapore '10.