285 replies to this topic

[Dipster]

Lots of Prius cabs in the UK these days.  It used to be all Skoda Octavias and Superbs*, but now the Prius has made a lot of inroads.  Don;t know why, but cab drivers usually figure out the best option for them, so they must give some advantage.

 

* outside London, that is. The Smoke is still in thrall to the wretched black cab.  Which is great if you want to wear a top hat.

Great if you want to wear a top hat and pay a fortune in cab fares! They are totally out of date, as is doing the knowledge. GPS has made that exercise pointless. French cabs (Paris, Marseilles, Nice etc.) are also ridiculously expensive. I saw a Jaguar cab at Orly last week! I would prefer a lower fare and a ride in a Skoda.....

 

Rant over. Sorry.

[Catalina Park]

All taxi drivers are idiots, they should have Chevs.

[gruntguru]

With four barrel carbs.

[Catalina Park]

And front wheel drove. (oops!)

[Lee Nicolle]

Every car made today has some form of government subsidy.

 

Falcons, Camrys and Commonwhores were subsidised before Kev, and have been after Kev, The deal Kev made was that for continuing subsidies the manufacturers would need to make more efficient models. Hence the Cruze, Hybrid Camry and Ecoboost Falcon.

Hybrid Camry and ecoboost Ford, both lemons in the market are basically fully subsidised. The Cruze is an Aussie assembled import,, eg 30% local content. Paint, glass, trim, some panel pressing.

[Lee Nicolle]

So you're calling my cabbie a liar?

Yes. I deal with a few. They NEVER wish to spend money, Anglo saxon, Indian or Middle Eastern. 

And only the big companies buy new, they can get the tax right offs unlike the independent operators.

[Wuzak]

Hybrid Camry and ecoboost Ford, both lemons in the market are basically fully subsidised. The Cruze is an Aussie assembled import,, eg 30% local content. Paint, glass, trim, some panel pressing.

 

If they are "fully subsidised" soes that mean I can go down to the dealer, flash my Australian driver's licence and take one home for free?

 

All Holdens are subsidised. That's why when this government took the subsidies away Holden decided to shut up shop in Australia (that and our "free trade agreements" basically make it impossible for the local manufacturers to export to other countries).

 

To be clear, the Cruze was only ever built here because of the subsidies and teh conditions placed upon those subsidies.

[Wuzak]

And Ford's original plan was not to build ecoboost Falcons - instead it was to build Foci in Australia. But then we got a FTA with Thailand (where they pump them out bythe million) which means 0 tarriffs for imports, and the AUD was trading at ~1 USD. It didn't make sense.

[Wuzak]

http://www.business....act-Sheet.aspx#

 

 

Participants in the ATS will be required to demonstrate progress towards achieving:

• economic sustainability
• improved environmental outcomes
• workforce skills development.

Edited by Wuzak, 09 December 2014 - 11:48.

[Greg Locock]

It's a shame the market didn't like the ecoboost Falcon, I leased one and it was pretty good, in fact it was the best of the recent lease cars according to the wife. We get a 4 litre Falcon next, see if she likes that.

 

The Hybrid Camry always looks pretty sensible to me, but since I can't tow with it it ain't gonna happen.

[Lee Nicolle]

If they are "fully subsidised" soes that mean I can go down to the dealer, flash my Australian driver's licence and take one home for free?

 

All Holdens are subsidised. That's why when this government took the subsidies away Holden decided to shut up shop in Australia (that and our "free trade agreements" basically make it impossible for the local manufacturers to export to other countries).

 

To be clear, the Cruze was only ever built here because of the subsidies and teh conditions placed upon those subsidies.

The Aussie taxpayer funds the creation of these vehicles totally. A 'Green' initiative that was never viable. Toyota have done the best, but really how many hybrid Camrys do they really build? A few hundred a year for government fleets, cabs and a few Greenies and trendys. And the fleet buyers are buying then very cheap to have any market for them at all. Net profit negative without any subsidy,, that is beyond the subsidies on ALL Australian vehicles which were becoming bigger every year as Labor tried to buy jobs for unionists!

The manufacturers needed a swift kick too as do State Governments who tax and tax all manufacturing, right out of the country! Then bleat about the poor Holden workers. Not much about Ford and Toyota workers or the Mitsubishi workers before them.

 

The manufacturers rolled over to the unionists, did not rationalise further their own practices.And Ford in particular with [to me at least] the best product then had very poor advertising and promotion plus cars with color schemes that buyers hated. I know a few that tried to buy the then BF wagons that came in about 3 colors with ugly interior colors. So bought Holdens!

Or no duel fuel, just LPG only, so bought Holdens.

I have a gas only FG tray, good vehicle but really a turnoff for country buyers, as they tell me LPG is hard to get in the country, eg a 40k round trip to go buy it. This is country too, not the bush where it is more like 400k. It is near impossible to drive Adelaide Darwin or Perth in these things. Even to Sydney or Melbourne requires planning and more stops to fill up for the next reliable gas location. Worse at night!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 11 December 2014 - 00:56.

[Wuzak]

The Aussie taxpayer funds the creation of these vehicles totally.

Totally funded by the taxpayer? That means they should be free - or at least significantly cheaper than they are.

 

A 'Green' initiative that was never viable. Toyota have done the best, but really how many hybrid Camrys do they really build?

http://www.toyota.co...toyota-industry

Granted it was from 2012. However:
 

Last year, Camry Hybrid achieved its highest annual sales of 7,107 vehicles, cementing its position as Australia's best-selling hybrid vehicle.
Camry Hybrid achieved a record for any month of 1,143 cars in December, outselling Ford Falcon in the process.

 
It also states:

Industry figures reveal that almost 44 per cent of hybrid vehicles were bought by private customers last year, compared with fewer than 29 per cent in 2011.

 
So, selling a bit better than you thought.

 

Net profit negative without any subsidy

That is true for every Australian built car.

There aren't very many, if any at all, cars built in the world without some form of subsidy.

 

that is beyond the subsidies on ALL Australian vehicles which were becoming bigger every year as Labor tried to buy jobs for unionists!

The Automotive Transformation Scheme was reducing subsidies over its period of use (Jan 2011 - Dec 2020).
 

The ATS have two stages that run from 1 January 2011 to 31 December 2020 and include:
capped assistance of $1.5 billion from 2011 to 2015 (Stage 1)
capped assistance of $1 billion from 2016 to 2020 (Stage 2)
uncapped assistance of approximately $847 million.

Note that this includes all manufacturers are part suppliers. For comparison, the fossil fuel industry is subsidised to the tune of $5b-$10b per year by Federal and State governments.
 
As with many, you blame the unions for the state of the car industry in Australia. The facts are more complicated than that.
 
One, the mining boom pushed up the Aussie dollar, and wages everywhere.
Two, Free Trade Agreements basically sold manufacturing out - 0 tariffs for imported cars compared to substantial tariffs in other countries. And many of the countries that export cars to Australia have higher subsidies for their industry.
Three, the Australian new car market is, perhaps, the most open and competitive in the world. There are more makes and models sold here than in the US, despite the market's small size. This makes getting the required volumes on the domestic market very difficult. With the value of the dollar and the FTAs in place, exporting became nigh on impossible. That is if the parent company allowed it in the first place.
 
 

The manufacturers needed a swift kick too as do State Governments who tax and tax all manufacturing, right out of the country!

It costs a lot of money to develop cars these days. To change type of model to suit buying trends would be nigh on impossible for the local manufacturers. They were, basically, stuck with what they had.

To build something that has already been developed, and which is being sold overseas, is uneconomic since they could be imported more cheaply, as the volumes are not there.

Not sure how State governments can tax manufacturing any more than they can tax other industry.

 

The manufacturers rolled over to the unionists, did not rationalise further their own practices.And Ford in particular with [to me at least] the best product then had very poor advertising and promotion plus cars with color schemes that buyers hated.

Not sure that a different colour scheme would make much difference.

You are again blaming the unions. Perhaps there were practices that could have been improved (long Christmas period for Toyota workers, for example), but it would not have prevented the collapse of the Australian industry without subsidies.

 

I have a gas only FG tray, good vehicle but really a turnoff for country buyers, as they tell me LPG is hard to get in the country, eg a 40k round trip to go buy it. This is country too, not the bush where it is more like 400k. It is near impossible to drive Adelaide Darwin or Perth in these things. Even to Sydney or Melbourne requires planning and more stops to fill up for the next reliable gas location. Worse at night!

I guess the country buyer would be stuck with the petrol-only version....

[RogerGraham]

Three, the Australian new car market is, perhaps, the most open and competitive in the world. There are more makes and models sold here than in the US, despite the market's small size. 

 

 

Nice post.  This line is particular caught my eye; very interesting.  Out of curiosity, how do you count the makes/models in each country?

[Wuzak]

Out of curiosity, how do you count the makes/models in each country?

 

I didn't. It was soemthing I read when the discussion over the removal of subsidies to the Australian car industry, and the subsequent decisions by the makers to leave Australia.

 

The make would be Ford, Holden, Toyota, etc. The make would be Focus, Fiesta, Falcon, etc. Not teh individual spec levels of each.

[Greg Locock]

Here's a non-exhaustive list of countries that encourage the manufacture of cars withing their borders via tax holidays, threats, grants, or other allied measures

 

UK

USA

Canada

Germany

france

Italy

Australia
Russia

Korea

Japan

China

India

taiwan

Philipines

Thailand

South Africa

Spain

portugal

Vietnam

Brazil

mexico

 

I've probably forgotten a few.In other words, virtually all car manufacturing countries do it. To me, the reason is obvious. It is no coincidence that aerospace in oz is shutting down as auto manufacturing does, as our assembly plants and suppliers  are what keep the high end tool-makers going. The ecology around car-manufacturing is large, and provides a good range of tech from low to high, so you can develop your industrial base progressively. Somewhere in a tin shed some poor bastard is bending anti roll bars up in a manual press, checking them in a plywood jig, and sending them out for the ubiquitous black paint. In 5 years he might be making springs, in 10 years suspension arms, in 15 years complete suspension modules (admittedly with a lot of bought in parts).

[imaginesix]

Naw, it's 'cause they're socialists, the whole lot of 'em.

[Wuzak]

Here's a non-exhaustive list of countries that encourage the manufacture of cars withing their borders via tax holidays, threats, grants, or other allied measures

 

UK

USA

Canada

Germany

france

Italy

Australia
Russia

Korea

Japan

China

India

taiwan

Philipines

Thailand

South Africa

Spain

portugal

Vietnam

Brazil

mexico

 

I've probably forgotten a few.In other words, virtually all car manufacturing countries do it. To me, the reason is obvious. It is no coincidence that aerospace in oz is shutting down as auto manufacturing does, as our assembly plants and suppliers  are what keep the high end tool-makers going. The ecology around car-manufacturing is large, and provides a good range of tech from low to high, so you can develop your industrial base progressively. Somewhere in a tin shed some poor bastard is bending anti roll bars up in a manual press, checking them in a plywood jig, and sending them out for the ubiquitous black paint. In 5 years he might be making springs, in 10 years suspension arms, in 15 years complete suspension modules (admittedly with a lot of bought in parts).

 

Thanks for that Greg.

 

In Australia's case the support ends in 2017. No coincidence that manufacturing is stopping in 2017 too.

 

Also, IIRC the standard tariff for imported cars is 5% - less than many of the countries on your list. For countries with which we have FTAs the tariff is 0%. Thailand is one, US is another, South Korea's will kick in next year with Japan and China having recently concluded deals.

[Lee Nicolle]

Totally funded by the taxpayer? That means they should be free - or at least significantly cheaper than they are.

 

http://www.toyota.co...toyota-industry

Granted it was from 2012. However:
 

 
It also states:

 
So, selling a bit better than you thought.

 

That is true for every Australian built car.

There aren't very many, if any at all, cars built in the world without some form of subsidy.

 

The Automotive Transformation Scheme was reducing subsidies over its period of use (Jan 2011 - Dec 2020).
 

Note that this includes all manufacturers are part suppliers. For comparison, the fossil fuel industry is subsidised to the tune of $5b-$10b per year by Federal and State governments.
 
As with many, you blame the unions for the state of the car industry in Australia. The facts are more complicated than that.
 
One, the mining boom pushed up the Aussie dollar, and wages everywhere.
Two, Free Trade Agreements basically sold manufacturing out - 0 tariffs for imported cars compared to substantial tariffs in other countries. And many of the countries that export cars to Australia have higher subsidies for their industry.
Three, the Australian new car market is, perhaps, the most open and competitive in the world. There are more makes and models sold here than in the US, despite the market's small size. This makes getting the required volumes on the domestic market very difficult. With the value of the dollar and the FTAs in place, exporting became nigh on impossible. That is if the parent company allowed it in the first place.
 
 

It costs a lot of money to develop cars these days. To change type of model to suit buying trends would be nigh on impossible for the local manufacturers. They were, basically, stuck with what they had.

To build something that has already been developed, and which is being sold overseas, is uneconomic since they could be imported more cheaply, as the volumes are not there.

Not sure how State governments can tax manufacturing any more than they can tax other industry.

 

Not sure that a different colour scheme would make much difference.

You are again blaming the unions. Perhaps there were practices that could have been improved (long Christmas period for Toyota workers, for example), but it would not have prevented the collapse of the Australian industry without subsidies.

 

I guess the country buyer would be stuck with the petrol-only version....

Private buyers inc small business.

 

Union practices, rorts etc are so well documented. And manufacturers rolling over to their demands. The priced them selves out of jobs. One of many over the top manufacturing expenses that also includes state taxes [paytroll etc] that made the whole process unworkable. So this country ends up with imported cars with less relevance to our country, less back up, less service.

People buy color, always have always will. And Ford did a crap job of it. 

Though try to buy any make in a decent practical color these days. Maybe you can order and wait several months.

Or give up and take what is available, that you will hate.

I know several 4WD buyers who want basic white, practical, doesnt fade or show dust etc but the IMPORTERS with no idea bring in colored ones by the dozen, but about 6 white ones a year that go straight to government fleets. And they are not the mid level vehicle that the private buyers want anyway. Now worse,, Toymota who too have lost the plot  bring in  PEARL white. Near impossible to color match, shows every scratch etc etc. Dumb dumb and even dumber on what is supposed to be an offroad vehicle which would expect to be raked by tree branches and the like when bush bashing. Though on those vehicles they are so bloody hi tech  with bling and electrics they are just a boulevard cruiser, or for towing a bloody caravan slowly all over the country. I drove one today. Not really impressed at all. Makes my 04 look simple, and they too are really too hitech too. With the starter inside the valley etc etc. And since it is auto [my choice] when the starter dies not something to be done on the side of the road. Though the new ones are all auto, and the high maintenance V8 diesel.

They actually make my white Ford traytop look simple and practical in comparison. And that unlike the BF Wagon referred too at least has charcoal trim, not rat beige. With that Ford lost a lot of the rep market, as well as salary sacrafice buyers too wanting a family wagon or a surfing wagon in one case. And sold the nearly as silly Commodore Sports Wagon with the fastback roof. That you struggle to get a large pram in the back, though my surfie friend can still sleep in it ok. With her head at the front, the back you bang your head! Her previous VZ was far more practical.

[Greg Locock]

Private car buyers don't buy white cars. They buy grey ones (thanks JC That is, silver). If you seriously believe that no market research is done on car colours then I have an irrigation project in the Ord valley to sell you. 

[Canuck]

Car colours move in trends, with grey/silver leading the charge in periods of high negative sentiment. Like the skirt-height / stock market correlation.

Im going to settle for another pearl white vehicle soon as the only alternatives seem to be gold, tan or silver.

[Lee Nicolle]

Private car buyers don't buy white cars. They buy grey ones (thanks JC That is, silver). If you seriously believe that no market research is done on car colours then I have an irrigation project in the Ord valley to sell you. 

Greg, that is garbage. Lots of buyers will buy white cars. Many specifically request those colors. Especially on commercials and 4wds. For the reasons I gave.

I have well over 30 years selling cars and never have had a problem selling white.It is cool, easy to clean. Red is as about as popular as aids unless it is sporty! Purples etc are a fashion for 10 min and go again. eg In the 70s Mulberry on a Falcon was only saleable to the color blind. trendy now as it is rare! Even now a purple Torana  are quite hard to shift in comparison.

And on modern cars near impossible!

Grey, blue, silver and the like does ok, far less so on commercials. Greens whatever are hard, aLOT of superstisous people out there!

I would be very surprised that my views are not reflected industry wide world wide.

White vans, utes 4wd is by far the easiest to sell

[Lee Nicolle]

Car colours move in trends, with grey/silver leading the charge in periods of high negative sentiment. Like the skirt-height / stock market correlation.

Im going to settle for another pearl white vehicle soon as the only alternatives seem to be gold, tan or silver.

And you dont really want any of them right?

[Greg Locock]

"Private car buyers don't buy white cars. They buy grey ones (thanks JC That is, silver). If you seriously believe that no market research is done on car colours then I have an irrigation project in the Ord valley to sell you. 

Greg, that is garbage. Lots of buyers will buy white cars. Many specifically request those colors. Especially on commercials and 4wds. "

 

I said private cars you start rabiiting on about commercial /4wds. Get your glasses fixed.

[scolbourne]

I was flying across Japan and  you could not see  any coloured cars. All were either white (most common), silver or black. I decided my next car would have to be different so now have a red car. I tried green but discovered in Australia it really shows the red dirt and dust badly.

[saudoso]

Here in BR it's the same. Saturation zero. I'm one of those that never bought a car with any saturated color in it. My father prior to me would only buy blue.

[Catalina Park]

I tried green but discovered in Australia it really shows the red dirt and dust badly.

I have a metallic green 2004 Magna, it shows dirt something shocking, I don't feel like washing a 10 year old car every couple of days. Then there is the clear coat failure....

[munks]

Just FYI, came across this after reading this thread:

 

http://wot.motortren...a_is_white.html

 

As Greg would point out, though, these are overall sales and could be heavily biased by fleets.

Edited by munks, 15 December 2014 - 18:58.

[saudoso]

Rental lots are quite colorful. I've had the most weird colors from Avis.

Edited by saudoso, 15 December 2014 - 21:15.

[kikiturbo2]

Drove a Tesla 85 S  today.. on a "simulated" business trip for an car magazine article to another city 160 km away... Indicated range at start 400 km

 

The trip went as following..

 

steady 92 km/h on the motorway for 90 km.. then 70 km on the local B road at some 60-70 km/h... came down to the coast with 150 km indicated range.. went back into the hills for 20 km to a friends factory to find a 32 amp socket to charge the car.. Inticated range at this point 80 km...

 

Industrial socket was only equipped with 16A fuses, so left the car to charge and went for a LONG lunch break... and got the car to charge to an indicated 320 km range.. Drove back 160 km on the motorway at no more than 95 km/h..

 

Acceleration is rocketship like, and I am used to some fast cars.. Quietness is weird... Ride is not so good.. lets say it is "busy" on bumpy roads..

 

All in all I'll stick to modern diesels in light compact cars when I want to save on fuel..

 

If I did the same trip with a normal compact with diesel (hell, even a normal petrol engined compact) I would have spent some 25 USD more in fuel, and had 0.8 hours of driving time less (at least) and saved further 4 hours of charging time..

Edited by kikiturbo2, 16 December 2014 - 01:21.

[scolbourne]

Eventually people would get used to electric cars, especially as infrastructure improves. In the mean time I think some kind of backup engine would be a good idea. Ideally the backup engine should be able to drive the wheels directly for efficiency but keeping the weight and cost to a minimum means that something like the Volt can be justified.

I think the ideal is really to own two cars. An electric one for journeys within the battery range , and a fuel car or hybrid for longer trips. As battery cost and capacity improves more of these trips can be completed with the electric car. We might also see , improved battery packs being retro installed in old electric cars. Maybe eventually (50 years time ) replaced by some compact fusion power source.

[gruntguru]

For low running costs, the alternative to a diesel compact is not the Tesla Model S.

 

EV options are very limited compared to what is just around the corner, say 5 years from now.

[scolbourne]

Drove a Tesla 85 S  today.. on a "simulated" business trip for an car magazine article to another city 160 km away... Indicated range at start 400 km

 

The trip went as following..

 

steady 92 km/h on the motorway for 90 km.. then 70 km on the local B road at some 60-70 km/h... came down to the coast with 150 km indicated range.. went back into the hills for 20 km to a friends factory to find a 32 amp socket to charge the car.. Inticated range at this point 80 km...

 

Industrial socket was only equipped with 16A fuses, so left the car to charge and went for a LONG lunch break... and got the car to charge to an indicated 320 km range.. Drove back 160 km on the motorway at no more than 95 km/h..

 

Acceleration is rocketship like, and I am used to some fast cars.. Quietness is weird... Ride is not so good.. lets say it is "busy" on bumpy roads..

 

All in all I'll stick to modern diesels in light compact cars when I want to save on fuel..

 

If I did the same trip with a normal compact with diesel (hell, even a normal petrol engined compact) I would have spent some 25 USD more in fuel, and had 0.8 hours of driving time less (at least) and saved further 4 hours of charging time..

If you had driven very carefully would you have been able to achieve the initial stated range of 400km. If so, you should have competed the whole journey with 80km range remaining.

Understandably as you were testing the car , you probably wanted to experience the acceleration and therefore pushed the car harder than the "normal compact with diesel (hell, even a normal petrol engined compact)".

 

Are the range figures only achieved under ideal conditions or is it like with most petrol cars the figure is calculated from the previous usage.

[RedRabbit]

Greg,if  you drive really slow, then it will be economical. Anything over 80kmh kills most hybrids economy. Really practical cars,,, for inner city driving.

 

This is what I don't understand. I drive a 3.3L V6 pick up and I get the same 19mpg in combined driver (city and highway). So ..... the question then is, what exactly is the point? Not everybody spends masses of time in the slow inner city, and to get there normally requires a highway trip of sorts.

 

Quite disappointing actually. I kept thinking that small (really small) capacity turbo hybrids were the way forward.

[kikiturbo2]

If you had driven very carefully would you have been able to achieve the initial stated range of 400km. If so, you should have competed the whole journey with 80km range remaining.

Understandably as you were testing the car , you probably wanted to experience the acceleration and therefore pushed the car harder than the "normal compact with diesel (hell, even a normal petrol engined compact)".

 

Are the range figures only achieved under ideal conditions or is it like with most petrol cars the figure is calculated from the previous usage.

 

I think you did not read my post correctly...

 

We drove it on the motorway at 92 km/h constant... which for a motorway where 130 km/h is allowed and 140 cruise is normal, is painfully slow. I have experienced the full bore acceleration twice during the whole day and at no time could our driving be characterised as "spirited" Had we taken the motorway at a normal cruising speed of 120 to 130 I am sure we would not have been able to do the one way trip... The more dinamic testing was reserved for another day.. this was a pure test of practicality..

 

I have nothing against electric cars,.. I do find them quite good for urban driving with relatively short daily commute... apart from the price..

 

What I do find objectionable is the fact that everyone is focusing on the motive power instead of a change in concept... a 2000 kg EV with 300 KW motor is not the solution... something half the weight and 1/4 that power is more like it...

[kikiturbo2]

This is what I don't understand. I drive a 3.3L V6 pick up and I get the same 19mpg in combined driver (city and highway). So ..... the question then is, what exactly is the point? Not everybody spends masses of time in the slow inner city, and to get there normally requires a highway trip of sorts.

 

Quite disappointing actually. I kept thinking that small (really small) capacity turbo hybrids were the way forward.

 

I look forward to this air hybrid concept with no batteries.. The problem with current hybrids is weight and complexity and, as far as I am concerned, too much EV range combined with too much petrol/diesel power.

[gruntguru]

I think you did not read my post correctly...

 

We drove it on the motorway at 92 km/h constant... which for a motorway where 130 km/h is allowed and 140 cruise is normal, is painfully slow. I have experienced the full bore acceleration twice during the whole day and at no time could our driving be characterised as "spirited" Had we taken the motorway at a normal cruising speed of 120 to 130 I am sure we would not have been able to do the one way trip... The more dinamic testing was reserved for another day.. this was a pure test of practicality..

 

I have nothing against electric cars,.. I do find them quite good for urban driving with relatively short daily commute... apart from the price..

 

What I do find objectionable is the fact that everyone is focusing on the motive power instead of a change in concept... a 2000 kg EV with 300 KW motor is not the solution... something half the weight and 1/4 that power is more like it...

I agree. The true future for EVs is to replace everyday cars - not just high performance luxury models. There are reasons the most successful EV to date is a such a car. Firstly, EVs still can't compete at the econo end of the market. Battery cost and performance are improving rapidly but still not quite there. Secondly, Tesla's strategy has been to crack the performance and luxury sectors first to establish credibitlity and develop their technologies while operating in the markets where EV's can be competitive.

 

BMW has adopted a similar strategy, targeting multiple sectors simultaneously.  In contrast, Mitsubishi and Nissan (for example) have struggled in their attempts to jump directly into high volume sectors.

Edited by gruntguru, 18 December 2014 - 00:36.