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The other John Cooper


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#1 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 20:52

The Driver Database seems to have mixed up two John Cooper's here: http://www.driverdb....rs/john-cooper/

 

Does anyone have the DOB of the amateur John Cooper who raced sports cars in the 1970's and 1980's? 



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#2 Allan Lupton

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 21:15

To those of my generation "the other John Cooper" was John "Autocar" Cooper (1916-1955) who was earlier than Charles Cooper's son.

Hardly surprising there was yet another, but coping with more than one person of a given name is perhaps beyond the simplistic approach of things like the database linked above.



#3 E.B.

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 21:20

I thought the other John Cooper was the former IMS president. Seems he isn't even the other other John Cooper.

#4 D-Type

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 21:37

That's as bad as the other database that had BRMs and Coopers entered by A. Owen!  I can't remember if they had them all as Alfred or Arthur.


Edited by D-Type, 14 August 2014 - 21:37.


#5 ReWind

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:42

Maybe this one?



#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:17

That's as bad as the other database that had BRMs and Coopers entered by A. Owen!  I can't remember if they had them all as Alfred or Arthur.

 
This'll be the one you're thinking of, Duncan. Here's their stats listing for the great team of Arthur Owen, winner of three Constructors' Championships in the '60s:

http://f1-facts.com/...any/Arthur_Owen

(they don't seem to have heard of Alfred).



#7 arttidesco

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:21

Turns out the other John Cooper I was thinking of is called Dave, who raced a Euro F3 Ralt back in the '80's.



#8 Allan Lupton

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:47

 
This'll be the one you're thinking of, Duncan. Here's their stats listing for the great team of Arthur Owen, winner of three Constructors' Championships in the '60s:

http://f1-facts.com/...any/Arthur_Owen

(they don't seem to have heard of Alfred).

I think all this just shows how our early reservations about the reliability of information posted on the internet are still valid 20-odd years later.

It's two years since the "Arthur Owen" link was posted here (By Tim!) and it's still rubbish.

At least Wikipedia can be corrected by anyone who finds an error and cares enough to make the effort, but much of the dross is put there by folk with no real understanding of what they post, ergo no understanding of any correction offered.



#9 alansart

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:26

The Driver Database seems to have mixed up two John Cooper's here: http://www.driverdb....rs/john-cooper/

 

Does anyone have the DOB of the amateur John Cooper who raced sports cars in the 1970's and 1980's? 

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.



#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:44

Not bad results for a man approaching 60!

And didn't the gap between 1950 and 1978 ring any bells?

#11 Sharman

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:07

alansart, on 15 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

Forgive me if I am wrong but it was always my understanding that sponsorship by your own enterprise did not allow tax offset, can anybody of an accountancy background confirm this?



#12 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:18

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

That seems like man I am refering to. Thanks :)



#13 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:24

Not bad results for a man approaching 60!

And didn't the gap between 1950 and 1978 ring any bells?

It did ring a bell for me :)

Even if we have seen good performers in their 60's, Paul Newman did fairly well at normal retirement age :)



#14 MCS

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 12:35

This is the same John Cooper who raced the lilac-coloured Porsche in Modsports races in the seventies I think - unless there is another one.

 

What a wonderful class of racing that was!  All manner of different cars and some very talented drivers. I can fondly remember Brian Hough's TVR, John "Plastic" Pearson's XK120, the Jon Fletcher and Dave Brodie Elans, Win Percy's deafening Datsun, Brian Murphy's beautiful E-Type, etc., etc.

 

Where did British motor racing go wrong?!



#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 14:15

To those of my generation "the other John Cooper" was John "Autocar" Cooper (1916-1955) who was earlier than Charles Cooper's son.

Hardly surprising there was yet another, but coping with more than one person of a given name is perhaps beyond the simplistic approach of things like the database linked above.

As well as being a fine journalist, John "Autocar" Cooper was a trained engineer and designer of two Stirling Moss specials early in his career: the Kieft Formula 3 car and the less successful Cooper Alta Formula 2.  The name of the latter came from the Cooper Car Co. who were involved as suppliers of parts.



#16 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 17:02

I think the John Cooper referred to in the title was sometimes listed as John C. Cooper and seemed to race a Porsche 935 K3 competently during the early 1980s in World Endurance races, a few German group 5 sprints and even IMSA races on the other side of the pond when the car became obsolete in Europe. If I remember the car was prepared by Charles Ivey Racing.

 

I have wondered about the most basic data of this driver too, since just about all search results leads to the man of Cooper Car Company or results data bases.

 

Danish drivers John Nielsen and John Nielsen are usually mixed up too, depending on how deep the data base in question has digged into their results.

 

Jesper



#17 ReWind

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 17:33

But nobody seems to know John Cooper (b. 1938) from the link in my post (# 5).
Is he John C. Cooper or not?

#18 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 18:03

But nobody seems to know John Cooper (b. 1938) from the link in my post (# 5).
Is he John C. Cooper or not?

 

He would fit in terms of age. This person would have been in his early 40s during his K3-period. Earlier suggestions of being owner of a company may deduce that he might have had the economic to commission other persons to take care of his car.

 

Jesper



#19 Rob Ryder

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 18:11

Welcome back Rainer :clap:

 

First post for some years !

 

Rob



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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 18:13

But nobody seems to know John Cooper (b. 1938) from the link in my post (# 5).
Is he John C. Cooper or not?

Probably not, Reinhard. Ancestry has the birth of two John Coopers registered in Derby in the first quarter of 1938 - a John L and a John H. John H seems to be a John Herbert Cooper, born Dec 27 1937, died Derby Oct 1993. A plain John Cooper is recorded as having died in infancy in Derby later in the year: but just to complicate it there were also two plain John Coopers registered in Chesterfield in the same quarter!

 

So it would appear he's not John C, but may be John L.



#21 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 22:06

Welcome back Rainer :clap:

 

First post for some years !

 

Rob

Thanks Rob  :wave:

 

Yes, indeed it has been a few years since I was last posting here... but occasionally I have been lurking a little  :up:



#22 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 22:20

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

 

Yes, this is most likely our man. He did not have a bio in Mike Kettlewell's book MOTOR RACING DIRECTORY from the period.

 

http://www.mikehaywa...e-1-800-800.jpg



#23 backfire

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:01

Also born in Derby in 1938 was John "Mooneyes" Cooper (also known locally as Cooperman), who famously beat Agostini's MV Agusta at Mallory Park riding a BSA Rocket. (I know two wheels - but what a star).



#24 Alan Cox

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:04

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

Perhaps this thread should be renamed 'The other John Coopers'

The '70s and 80s John 'Cooper Industries' Cooper also raced Ford GT40, BMW 3.0 in prodsaloons, Lola in Sports 2000 as well as the Porsches and F1 and F2 single-seaters already mentioned. A versatile driver who seemed to turn his hand to most categories with reasonable success.



#25 ReWind

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:13


Also born in Derby in 1938 was John "Mooneyes" Cooper (also known locally as Cooperman), who famously beat Agostini's MV Agusta at Mallory Park riding a BSA Rocket. (I know two wheels - but what a star).

Since Wikipedia claims his full name was John Herbert Cooper he could well be John H. Cooper (Dec. 1937 - Oct. 1993) from Richard's post (# 20).

 

EDIT: Although at further reading I see that Mooneyes Cooper retired from his business after 2007. So not the same man the more so as dellam.com reveals that John Herbert Cooper from Derby was born on 24 January 1938. So HE is John Cooper from helenaracing.org.


Edited by ReWind, 16 August 2014 - 11:25.


#26 MCS

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:28

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

 

More mystery.  I don't think it was his company - maybe the US company known as Cooper Industries were a sponsor?  I seriously doubt the US concern would have allowed him to trade with a company bearing the same name.

 

Moreover, there is no evidence that he had a company with that name.



#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:35

Mooneyes' birthdate seems to be inferred from the fact that he first competed some time in 1954 aged 16. That wouldn't rule out a 1937 birth - there's another John Cooper born late 1937 in Belper. :drunk:



#28 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 14:54

I have emailed Porsche dealer Charles Ivey, who John Cooper used to race for in the 1980's.



#29 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 17:01

Also born in Derby in 1938 was John "Mooneyes" Cooper (also known locally as Cooperman), who famously beat Agostini's MV Agusta at Mallory Park riding a BSA Rocket. (I know two wheels - but what a star).


Ah, yes! Remember that wonderful helmet... from the days when motorcycle racing helmets didn't all look alike! :well:

#30 eurocardoc

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 15:25

More mystery.  I don't think it was his company - maybe the US company known as Cooper Industries were a sponsor?  I seriously doubt the US concern would have allowed him to trade with a company bearing the same name.

 

Moreover, there is no evidence that he had a company with that name.

I ran the Hesketh cars for JC in the late 70s. His father owned a very large group of companies in and around the Midlands, all engineering, it was under the name of Cooper Industries.. John had the cars carry that name on the sides, in fact I was up all night changing the ex-Lawler orange TS19 into a white with blue and gold stripes for Bob Evans to drive at Zandvoort Aurora race which he won!

 

John had a history at Le Mans, indeed with Ivey run Porsches, he also raced Sports 2000 and I recall ran LeMans with a certain Chris Craft.


Edited by eurocardoc, 17 August 2014 - 15:29.


#31 MCS

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 20:19

Wow. So much for "Companies House" records....

 

I guess he was the Modsports guy then?



#32 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 21:01

Wow. So much for "Companies House" records....

 

I guess he was the Modsports guy then?

Lots of references to the company in The Times from 1965 on. That was when they went public.



#33 Sharman

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:32

MCS, on 16 Aug 2014 - 13:28, said:MCS, on 16 Aug 2014 - 13:28, said:

More mystery.  I don't think it was his company - maybe the US company known as Cooper Industries were a sponsor?  I seriously doubt the US concern would have allowed him to trade with a company bearing the same name.

 

Moreover, there is no evidence that he had a company with that name.

Hence my earlier comment. There is no financial advantage to being sponsored by your own enterprise, and that is what sponsorship is about.

 

So he didn't but Dad did, hence sponsorship had financial advantage and was allowable on the advertising budget.


Edited by Sharman, 18 August 2014 - 08:36.


#34 arttidesco

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:20

The 70's & 80's John Cooper raced a F2 March and an F1 Hesketh in the Aurora Series, always sponsored by Cooper Industries. Probably his own company.

 

IIRC Cooper Industries was founded in Ohio in the mid 1800's and is now a global electrical supplier listed on the NYE, might be a family connection.



#35 eurocardoc

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:42

IIRC Cooper Industries was founded in Ohio in the mid 1800's and is now a global electrical supplier listed on the NYE, might be a family connection.

No connection