57 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

There are a lot of very, very talented racing driver  from Netherlands currently competing in the Junior Formula Series:

 

We have Max Verstappen

We have Robin Frijns

We have Nyck de Vries

 

Van der Garde and Melker are also very good, Steijn Schothorst is doing also very well.

 

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past? There were just a few good drivers, but not that talented that nowadays.

[William Hunt]

I assume you are Dutch considering you say "we".

Difficult to tell why the Netherlands didn't have that amount of talent in the past.

However I would like to point out that Jan Lammers has in my humble opinion been one of the better drivers of his generation, he just had bad luck that he never received a good car in F1. And there was also Gijs van Lennep who was a super sports car driver in the '70s.

[ensign14]

Lammers had his moment, but when a co-rookie with Elio de Angelis at Shadow - and indeed the nominal no. 1 driver - he was very much sucking hind tit. 

 

Van Lennep is much more of a lost talent.  Wunderink was doing eff all in the Ensign, Gijs jumped into it, and promptly got it into the points. 

 

I suppose it's a double effect; one, statistical likelihood; two, Jos the Boss' successes raising the profile of motor racing in the Netherlands.

[William Hunt]

Elio de Angelis is seriously underrated, he was the best teammate Senna ever had (Lotus, 1985).

[scheivlak]

Elio de Angelis is seriously underrated, he was the best teammate Senna ever had (Lotus, 1985).

The problem was that we didn't know how good Elio was back then in 1979. Lammers got a lot of flak when lost to "some Italian rookie" that year......

[Nemo1965]

Good topic. Close to the question I always ask: 'If the Netherlands are too small to have money for Dutch F1 drivers to reach the top, why the hell are all those Fins in F1?'

 

Just think of it. In the last thirty years, Randstad, ABN-Amro, Fortis, Shell, ING have all been big sponsors. In the same period ZERO big Finnish companies sponsored anything considerable in F1.

 

In that period we have had two podium-finishes for a Dutch F1 driver (Verstappen), and Rosberg, Raikkonen and Hakkinen became worldchampions, Kovalinen and Rosberg won races, and soforth...

 

Oh, regarding Jan Lammers: he admitted himself that in his first years in F1, he was not good enough on fast tracks. But Don Nichols screwed him at Shadow, but using all the money Jan brought (with Samson) on De Angelis car...

[Kyo]

There are a lot of very, very talented racing driver  from Netherlands currently competing in the Junior Formula Series:

 

We have Max Verstappen

We have Robin Frijns

We have Nyck de Vries

 

Van der Garde and Melker are also very good, Steijn Schothorst is doing also very well.

 

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past? There were just a few good drivers, but not that talented that nowadays.

 

Van der Garde and Melker are certainly not in the "very good" class. Nyck de Vries seems to be good but I still want to see how he does next year since winning FR2.0 in his 3rd year is not all that impressive. Verstappen and Frijns are real talents and have some of the most outstanding results in junior formula.

 

Elio de Angelis is seriously underrated, he was the best teammate Senna ever had (Lotus, 1985).

 

Second, after all Senna had Prost as teammate.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

 

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past? There were just a few good drivers, but not that talented that nowadays.

 

 

I believe the Dutch like their bicycles and boats, so that's probably why.

[lars75]

There are a lot of very, very talented racing driver  from Netherlands currently competing in the Junior Formula Series:

 

We have Max Verstappen

We have Robin Frijns

We have Nyck de Vries

 

Van der Garde and Melker are also very good, Steijn Schothorst is doing also very well.

 

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past? There were just a few good drivers, but not that talented that nowadays.

 

Well it has not so much to do with talent, but with financial backing!

 

The most of the drivers switched to touringcars and are very succesfull there. With this I don't say they all got F1 potential, but a few of them I think will stand their ground in F1.

 

Pastorelli, Dusseldorp, Catsburg, Bleekemolen, Hezemans, Kox, Coronel, Crevels, vd Zande, Buurman, van Asseldonk, jr Strouss (don't ask to his current status  ), van Buren, Visser, Schothorst, Dontje..................

 

My upinion is that the people must let go the thought that if you're not in F1 you don't have enough talent. 

[ensign14]

Any news on Zwolsman Jr?  Did he get sent down for living off his old man's illegal earnings?

[scheivlak]

Any news on Zwolsman Jr?  Did he get sent down for living off his old man's illegal earnings?

He was sentenced to 9 months in jail but got off more lightly on appeal (100 hours of community service) like most of his father's accomplices. A British partner in crime who was the main distributor of the drugs got a prison sentence though of 4 years. 

 

I think there's a good movie script in this, including the role of Charles senior's mistress, one Scarlet Francini (great name). She was sentenced to 36 months in jail BTW.

Edited by scheivlak, 24 August 2014 - 22:19.

[ensign14]

Christ alive.  The Dutch legal system sounds about as full of integrity as the German.

[Drinky]

Christ alive.  The Dutch legal system sounds about as full of integrity as the German.

 

Funny how in another thread you're calling Rosberg "xenophobic" for merely pointing out (correctly) that most of his detractors are British. But reading this I suppose you're an expert on xenophobia.

[PlatenGlass]

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past? There were just a few good drivers, but not that talented that nowadays.

Motor racing isn't exactly a meritocracy. Maybe there were always talented drivers, but the current bunch have had more opportunities to show it.

[ensign14]

Funny how in another thread you're calling Rosberg "xenophobic" for merely pointing out (correctly) that most of his detractors are British. But reading this I suppose you're an expert on xenophobia.

 

I am an expert on many things.  One of them is international law.

 

I don't suppose you think much about the effects of drug trafficking and money laundering.

 

It does however seem that Britain is the only country in Europe which cares about money laundering.  There is a European directive requiring professionals to make police reports if they think that they might be handling laundered money.

 

In 2004, the first year it was brought in, lawyers in Britain made over 13,000 such reports.

 

Lawyers in Germany made eight.

 

Not eight thousand. 

 

Eight. 

 

French lawyers made fifty.  Danish lawyers made between ten and fifteen, perhaps the authorities lost count.

 

Perhaps, given Britain's status as a financial status, there is more money laundering going on here than abroad.  But there is not 1,625 times more laundering than in Germany.  And indeed we've now seen from the German courts that the courts themselves are complicit in money laundering strictu sensu.

 

Community service for using millions of euros/guilders of money laundered from drug dealing, to enjoy oneself racing, is a joke.

[scheivlak]

 

Van Lennep is much more of a lost talent.  

 

Only if you think about F1.

 

I rather think he made optimal use of his talent. IMHO he never was a 'King of Qualifying', he wasn't a top ace speedwise. But he succeeded in where he was really good at: long distance sportcar driving, staying concentrated, being fast and keeping it all together at high speeds for the full 24 hours. 

 

Just like Toine Hezemans, a driver who consciously decided not to drive the dangerous monopostos of those years but only sportscar/prototypes and touringcars - and was among the very best of that field, co-winning e.g. the 1971 Targa Florio.and the 1978 Daytona 24 hours.

[Jimisgod]

Elio de Angelis is seriously underrated, he was the best teammate Senna ever had (Lotus, 1985).

Quite handily beat Mansell if you add up all their years together.

[EightGear]

I rate Kevin Abbring very high in the rallying world. He deserves a proper shot at the WRC.

[Drinky]

Community service for using millions of euros/guilders of money laundered from drug dealing, to enjoy oneself racing, is a joke.

 

Junior was considered not have been too personally involved with the laundering of his father's ill-gotten gains. Perhaps he did know, perhaps he should have known, certainly, where his funding was coming from, but after much deliberation, that is what was deemed appropriate, whereas others in that case were indeed given jail sentences. To then extrapolate from this one verdict a blanket statement about the integrety of a country's legal system as you did, seems to me somewhat unbecoming of an expert in international law (which is my point).

 

Either way, his racing career has hit a bit of a slump. 

[PlatenGlass]

Quite handily beat Mansell if you add up all their years together.

But Mansell definitely improved as a driver after Lotus. Also De Angelis was 4-0 down in qualifying to Patrese at Brabham in 1986. It's not exactly a lot to go on though obviously.

[DanardiF1]

Funny how in another thread you're calling Rosberg "xenophobic" for merely pointing out (correctly) that most of his detractors are British. But reading this I suppose you're an expert on xenophobia.

 

It's not xenophobic to criticise the legal system of another country if you feel it has some flaws... he wasn't saying 'the legal system is rubbish because it's Dutch', he was saying 'the Dutch legal system is rubbish'... if he felt the British one was similar he'd probably say so.

[DanardiF1]

But Mansell definitely improved as a driver after Lotus. Also De Angelis was 4-0 down in qualifying to Patrese at Brabham in 1986. It's not exactly a lot to go on though obviously.

 

Mansell was mistreated at Lotus as well. His only real ally initially at Lotus was Colin Chapman himself, and when he passed away the control of the team passed on to Peter Warr, whose opinion of Mansell can be summed up in one quote;

 

 “Nigel Mansell will never win a Grand Prix as long as I have a hole in my arse.”

 

All the support at Lotus in that time went to De Angelis, which wasn't surprising really as he was such a charming man with no lack of talent. Mansell whilst there isn't really anything to say bad about him wasn't as charismatic as the outgoing Italian and as long as Warr was in charge he was never going to get the support he needed to succeed. Williams gave him that and it only took one season for Mansell to become a giant of the sport... so much for Warr's estimation of him...

[lustigson]

It is interesting, indeed, but with Demi-god Verstappen in next season I would be surprised if we see another Dutch driver any time soon. 

[Arjan de Roos]

There have been other periods when more than one Dutch talent surfaced. Around 1978-1980 we had not only Bleekemolen, Hayje and Lammers, but also Arie Luijendijk (Luyendyk), Rob Leeuwenburgh and Huub Rothengatter in F3. Glenn & John Bosch and Fred Krab in FF. As well as karting World Champions Peter Koene, Peter de Bruijn and Michel Vacirca (Juniors WC). All suffering under the reluctance of major Dutch sponsors.

[Rob Semmeling]

Ah, HistoryFan and his questions !

 

Why are there so many very talented driver from the Netherlands now. And why not in the past?

 

Depends on how you define "past" and "talented", for one thing. In addition to those mentioned in the original post, there have been many other Dutch drivers who have achieved (some degree of) success in international motorsports in recent years, or are still doing so, for example:

 

Christijan Albers, Phil Bastiaans, Jeroen Bleekemolen, Yelmer Buurman, Nick Catsburg, Tom Coronel, Carlo van Dam, Robert Doornbos, Stef Dusseldorp, Cor Euser, Christiaan Frankenhout, Mike Hezemans, Patrick Huisman, Francesco Pastorelli, Nicky Pastorelli, Peter Kox, Jaap van Lagen, Xavier Maassen, Nigel Melker, Jos Menten, Bas Schothorst, Pieter Schothorst, Ho-Pin Tung, Jos Verstappen, Renger van der Zande ...

 

But talent aside, without either a sponsor/personal benefactor or a spot in a junior programme (e.g. Verstappen/Red Bull, De Vries/McLaren) it is virtually impossible to reach Formula 1, therefore many talented drivers end up in other categories. That is a persistent problem for Dutch drivers, especially as Dutch companies tend to sponsor teams rather than individuals.

 

In general though, I reckon there is nothing special about a sudden wave of talent, or talent dry spells for that matter.

 

[rhukkas]

De Vries is minted and Verstappen is the son of an F1 driver.

[F1matt]

De Vries is minted and Verstappen is the son of an F1 driver.

Sadly it's the only way to get on in European Motorsport.

[rhukkas]

I should say that doesn't totally undermine their achievements, especially Max. 

[TheRacingElf]

The Dutch have always been good in karting, the only problem they faced (and still face) was that there was no money to progress into cars

[zanquis]

Too bad with former Dutch talent people seem to miss some we lost on the way with other accidents, like Marcel Albers who had accident when he was doing good in F1.
 

I had a lot of problems with understanding it in the past when national championships meant something that we had sometimes a Dutch driver winning the championship and then basically ended his career, cause he does not have the budget to continue and champions are not supposed to defend titles in feeder series.

 

I think the problem is Dutch companies are like Dutch people down to earth, why would they bind their name to a driver to get media attention when they can just sponsor the car directly and get worldwide attention.
Although Randstad (a company to help Dutch find a job since 2006 failed to get a Dutch driver in a racing seat, if you cannot even get a Dutch driver in a racing seat of a team you sponsor with so many unemployed Dutch drivers I kind of feel you are failing at your job)

Look at South American companies, they sponsor their drivers with passion even if the results are not great, they will back their man up as a hero. If a Dutch driver has a lesser weekend the journalist can't wait to burn him down. It has become a bit less but the Dutch find it hard to talk proudly about their drivers. For instance in 1996 Verstappen was voted driver of the weekend in Brazil by almost every country in the world because in the rain he was putting down the fastest laps, only 1 country did not say he was the best... his own, the Netherlands. It is probably hard for some to believe considering the passion some Dutch carry for Verstappen/Frijns/Football but the majority has a attitude that they are embarrassed to be proud.

[DanardiF1]

I should say that doesn't totally undermine their achievements, especially Max. 

 

Outside of karting (which doesn't guarantee a great single seater driver... just ask Tonio Liuzzi) Max hasn't achieved anything yet, for all the hype around him he's not leading the F3 championship and because it's his first season in cars he has no other achievements yet.

[JeePee]

Outside of karting (which doesn't guarantee a great single seater driver... just ask Tonio Liuzzi) Max hasn't achieved anything yet, for all the hype around him he's not leading the F3 championship and because it's his first season in cars he has no other achievements yet.

Luckily some people, like Helmut Marko, actually look at the races, instead of just the standings.

[Seanspeed]

Dutch are the new Finns.

[Viryfan]

i Think that Max Verstappen  will be competitive and that he is ready for F1.

 

I guess that the big question around him is not will he be competitive enough in F1 but will he have time to fine tune himself on certain details before the next Red Bull Racing vacancy in order to get the nod over his team mate.

 

These details are for example how to set up your qualy run with fresh set of tyres.It is the difference between making Q3 and failing into 12th place .This not easy task and this is eventual weakness that i see in Verstappen situation.

 

He has the racing skills and the speed for him.

[Nemo1965]

The Dutch have always been good in karting, the only problem they faced (and still face) was that there was no money to progress into cars

 

Like I said in a post above: that is not true. ABN-Amro sponsored F1, ING did, Randstad still does, Shell (yeah, Shell Londen, but Shell IS a Dutch a company) shoved loads of money into McLaren. What happened was that most Dutch drivers in the past were very, very clumsy in trying to convince companies to sponsor their career. And I understand completely why some companies did not want to sponsor Dutch drivers. Jan Lammers recently said: 'I signed the contract with Shadow, to be honest, because the office-head on the paper looked so neat...'

 

Lammers for example, got into F1 because the boss of Niemeyer once promised him: 'If you get into F1, we will sponsor you.' If only that guy from Niemeyer would have accompanied Lammers and his manager around the paddock, Lammers would have landed the drive at Tyrrel (probably with paying less money), a better contract and probably not a teamboss that would have spent all his money on the car of the non-paying driver...

 

I don't like to say this, but racing drivers in general are pretty dumb...or naive. Or not savvy. Whatever you want to call it. And Dutch F1 drivers in general are even dumber than the general population of F1 drivers. With the exception of Van der Garde. He is pretty smart, and he has taken a lot out of his not to stellar talents. Max is still very young (so still dumb, as all young people), but perhaps he will grow to be a smart young man.

Edited by Nemo1965, 26 August 2014 - 09:54.

[zanquis]

Problem was for Dutch in short: "Dutch companies like to sponsor teams, not drivers." Mostly because the Dutch companies that sponsor in F1 are multinational there is no benefit from sponsoring a Dutch driver early in his career who might not make it in F1 when they can just go to the F1 team and sponsor directly.

 

And about Dutch drivers being smart or not:
van der Garde is a smart guy but he made a huge mistake which almost ruined his career in F1 before it started. But he managed to recover and gotten a rare second change into F1. He grew better from it for sure.
Albers is also not a dumb cookie, less skills on the track then many others but he got into F1, and has proven outside F1 to be a decently good businessman. Lets see if he can be better as he combines his business with F1 skills.

Doornbos did not start racing till they where like 17. The time it took them to get into F1 was therefore relatively short. You can not do that if you are really dumb. And  considering he only raced F1 at the end of season as a replacement, he did actually do pretty damned well if you compare almost any other driver that started against a teammate that drove the entire season and basically win the qualifying against one of the most experienced drivers in the field.

Jos, ah yeah he really ****ed up his own career with dumb moves, but on the other side teams still wanted him for a decent long time. He should have stayed with his Marlboro sponsor, they would have probably liked him to stay for a few years and he might have then be partnered with Schumi at Ferrari. If he just stayed loyal to his sponsor and not got into the web of Briatore.
 

[TheRacingElf]

Like I said in a post above: that is not true. ABN-Amro sponsored F1, ING did, Randstad still does, Shell (yeah, Shell Londen, but Shell IS a Dutch a company) shoved loads of money into McLaren.

You are only talking about F1, but it's very difficult to get enough budget for the lower categories without a rich daddy. Even karting is getting too expensive these days for most people..

De Vries his father had a big car dealership I thought, well Verstappen his dad is an ex F1 driver and Frijns won several scholarships. I really think if there would be more money for some Dutch karting stars there will be more Dutch F1 drivers in the future

[noikeee]

I don't like to say this, but racing drivers in general are pretty dumb...or naive. Or not savvy.

 

I'd agree in the past (with a considerable number of exceptions), but these days it almost feels like most F1 drivers have gone through an engineering degree with how technical their job is. They're generally not the bonkers meatheads of the past - hint hint Jos Verstappen wink wink.

[HaydenFan]

But is Frijns ever going to get a ride? Bounced around testing with Sauber and Caterham based on what he could buy. With limited testing, without being a Red Bull driver or a tie to Mercedes, he is pretty much off the F1 radar. 

[Nemo1965]

I'd agree in the past (with a considerable number of exceptions), but these days it almost feels like most F1 drivers have gone through an engineering degree with how technical their job is. They're generally not the bonkers meatheads of the past - hint hint Jos Verstappen wink wink.

 

Oh, oh... I know Frans is not here any more, but you know his spiritual son is hovering around, right?

 

By the way, when I am talking about 'dumb', I am not talking about math or something, or IQ. I am talking about 'social intelligence': being able to take care of your own best interests and at the same time don't piss people off that you need later in your life sooner or later.  There are several people in my country who have much higher IQ's than I have, but keep putting their foot in it. Incredible how they mess up things for themselves!

 

For example: Nico and Lewis are certainly not very smart right now!

Edited by Nemo1965, 26 August 2014 - 14:48.

[Nemo1965]

You are only talking about F1, but it's very difficult to get enough budget for the lower categories without a rich daddy. Even karting is getting too expensive these days for most people..

De Vries his father had a big car dealership I thought, well Verstappen his dad is an ex F1 driver and Frijns won several scholarships. I really think if there would be more money for some Dutch karting stars there will be more Dutch F1 drivers in the future

 

Good point. But then... Finland. Why? More money for karting and feeder series than in the Netherlands? Surely not.

Edited by Nemo1965, 26 August 2014 - 14:49.

[TheRacingElf]

Good point. But then... Finland. Why? More money for karting and feeder series than in the Netherlands? Surely not.

I have to agree with you on Finland, I don't know either..wish I knew

[sopa]

I don't like to say this, but racing drivers in general are pretty dumb...or naive. Or not savvy. Whatever you want to call it. And Dutch F1 drivers in general are even dumber than the general population of F1 drivers. With the exception of Van der Garde. He is pretty smart, and he has taken a lot out of his not to stellar talents. Max is still very young (so still dumb, as all young people), but perhaps he will grow to be a smart young man.

 

Sounds very harsh, though I guess you know more than me. 

 

It is certainly intriguing that Jos Verstappen qualifies as the "best" (or more like the most successful or recognizable) Dutch F1 driver ever, while other small nations like Belgium (Ickx, Boutsen), Switzerland (Regazzoni), Austria (WDC-s), Finland (WDC-s) have had a pretty significant impact on F1. You'd like to think one day Netherlands is bound to get onto this list as well...

 

Then again perhaps things have to be balanced.   After all Netherlands is superlatively good in football - much more so than small(ish) nations usually are!

[Nemo1965]

Then again perhaps things have to be balanced.   After all Netherlands is superlatively good in football - much more so than small(ish) nations usually are!

 

Yeah, they are so good they lost three finals in the world cup, won 1 (!) European championship...

 

Anyway, there is no reason why the Netherlands should not become just succesfull as the Finns...

[HistoryFan]

Problem was for Dutch in short: "Dutch companies like to sponsor teams, not drivers." Mostly because the Dutch companies that sponsor in F1 are multinational there is no benefit from sponsoring a Dutch driver early in his career who might not make it in F1 when they can just go to the F1 team and sponsor directly.

 

 

 Good point. But there are also no Finnish companies who supported drivers. Okay we have Wihuri with Bottas, but Häkkinen, Räikkönen and so on had no Finish sponsors I think.

 

[DKMoto]

Its because Finnish people in general have that personality that the Dutch simply dont have, they dont have that kill to win, so they will be stuck in GP2 and back of grid, Finn's have a kill mentality due to living beside Russia all their life, so the men are naturally tougher and have a winning mentality to their Dutch counter parts. ie: put Bottas in a cage with a Dutch driver and lets put bets on who will come out alive.

[Shiftin]

Its because Finnish people in general have that personality that the Dutch simply dont have, they dont have that kill to win, so they will be stuck in GP2 and back of grid, Finn's have a kill mentality due to living beside Russia all their life, so the men are naturally tougher and have a winning mentality to their Dutch counter parts. ie: put Bottas in a cage with a Dutch driver and lets put bets on who will come out alive.

 

Rob Kaman

Ramon Dekkers

Peter Aerts

Ernesto Hoost

Remy Bonjasky

Badr Hari

Semmy Schilt

Andy Souwer

Alistair Overeem

Tyrone Spong

 

They all disagree....

[ensign14]

Are you pulling Scrabble letters out of a bag blindfolded?

[snipes]

Its because Finnish people in general have that personality that the Dutch simply dont have, they dont have that kill to win, so they will be stuck in GP2 and back of grid, Finn's have a kill mentality due to living beside Russia all their life, so the men are naturally tougher and have a winning mentality to their Dutch counter parts. ie: put Bottas in a cage with a Dutch driver and lets put bets on who will come out alive.

 

[BRG]

Its because British people in general have that personality that the Finns simply dont have, they dont have that kill to win, so they will be stuck in GP2 and back of grid, Brit's have a kill mentality due to living beside Germany all their life, so the men are naturally tougher and have a winning mentality to their Finnish counter parts. ie: put Hamilton in a cage with a Finnish driver and lets put bets on who will come out alive.

 

See how silly you look now?