522 replies to this topic

[Kalmake]

In most sports, like tennis or golf or whatever, you compete on equal terms with every other competitor in the world. In F1, you compete on equal terms with one person, your teammate. How many other sports turn up results like this:

 

2015 F1 Driver's World Championship:

 

1. Mercedes

2. Mercedes

3. Ferrari

4. Ferrari

5. Williams

6. Williams

7. Red Bull

8. Red Bull

9.  Force India

10. Force India

 

This is why you cannot compare Vettel, Hamilton, and the rest of them with other sporting greats like Federer, or whoever.

Football and loads of other team sports. Ronaldo doesn't compete on equal terms with anyone.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't agree with this trend towards larger front wings (2009, 2019), and smaller front tires (2010, 2021). If the front tire is smaller, cars will run more front aero to get the same balance. The front wing is the most sensitive part of the car to dirty air from the car in front. When they first came out with these "snow plough" front wings in 2009, everyone with half a brain thought they looked awful. Nothing has changed.

Thats not what happens at all with smaller front tyres. The weight balance and downforce balance both have to be in sync with the tyres otherwise the car handles completely unpredictably.

[DeKnyff]

In most sports, like tennis or golf or whatever, you compete on equal terms with every other competitor in the world. In F1, you compete on equal terms with one person, your teammate. How many other sports turn up results like this:

 

2015 F1 Driver's World Championship:

 

1. Mercedes

2. Mercedes

3. Ferrari

4. Ferrari

5. Williams

6. Williams

7. Red Bull

8. Red Bull

9.  Force India

10. Force India

 

This is why you cannot compare Vettel, Hamilton, and the rest of them with other sporting greats like Federer, or whoever.

Wow, car is important for winning? That's really breaking news.

[DeKnyff]

With simple front wings they’d be more costly, as you’d lose a larger proportion of your front downforce with damage.

Maybe yes, maybe not. Also simpler wings are sturdier and maybe they wouldn't make the car lose so much downforce in case of an incident.

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe yes, maybe not. Also simpler wings are sturdier and maybe they wouldn't make the car lose so much downforce in case of an incident.

They wouldn’t necessarily be sturdier. They only need to be strong enough to effectively transmit their loads to the nose. Damage would result in a greater proportional loss of downforce.

[Kalmake]

Front wings aren’t the problem. Look at IndyCar. Full width front wings, and yet the cars race well and the drivers very rarely knock them off in botched overtakes.

Spec car wings are over-engineered.

[PayasYouRace]

Spec car wings are over-engineered.

That’s not what I was saying. They don’t tend to knock them as often.

[boillot]

They can be kept but:

- Outermost edges of the front wing should be at most as wide as the innermost edges of the front wheels
- Only 2 elements should be allowed on each side (main element + one additional element above)
- The optimal height must be set so that the influence of the car ahead is minimized

I agree that the current front wings are absolutely crazy and bring nothing useful to the sport.

[ensign14]

Another potentially nasty incident in F2 after Matsushita cut his tyre on Drugovic's front wing.  Had a big impact as a result. 

 

A year after a detached front wing getting under Correa's car contributed to Hubert's death.

 

If any other part of a car were causing so many incidents it would be banned post haste.  As indeed the original wings were.

[Joefane]

Another potentially nasty incident in F2 after Matsushita cut his tyre on Drugovic's front wing. Had a big impact as a result.

A year after a detached front wing getting under Correa's car contributed to Hubert's death.

If any other part of a car were causing so many incidents it would be banned post haste. As indeed the original wings were.

Might as well ban tyres too, since Vettel and Leclerc got punctures in Brazil.

Also side pods, they can cut tyres.

Maybe even walls at street circuits, we’ve seen tyres punctured in that way.

[TomNokoe]

Another potentially nasty incident in F2 after Matsushita cut his tyre on Drugovic's front wing. Had a big impact as a result.

A year after a detached front wing getting under Correa's car contributed to Hubert's death.

If any other part of a car were causing so many incidents it would be banned post haste. As indeed the original wings were.

Definitely an argument to say that the massive front wings since 2009 have contributed to many accidents.

[Kalmake]

Definitely an argument to say that the massive front wings since 2009 have contributed to many accidents.

We don't know what would have happened with smaller front wings. Drivers know where the edges are and push the limits accordingly.

[ArchieTech]

I believe they're addressing attachment points for the wings in the 2022 F1 regs, and also investigating whether they can have controlled failure points built in.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I believe they're addressing attachment points for the wings in the 2022 F1 regs, and also investigating whether they can have controlled failure points built in.

To impede Mercedes front design my guess would be...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 29 August 2020 - 16:38.

[ensign14]

Might as well ban tyres too, since Vettel and Leclerc got punctures in Brazil.
 

You can race without front wings.  Only Hamilton can race without tyres.

[PayasYouRace]

I refer to my comment from two years ago,

 

Front wings aren’t the problem. Look at IndyCar. Full width front wings, and yet the cars race well and the drivers very rarely knock them off in botched overtakes.

 

and add that that also applies to contacts in general, including cutting tyres.

[kayemod]

You can race without front wings.  Only Hamilton can race without tyres.

 

Not really, "Black Circles Matter".

[midgrid]

Autosport has republished Jochen Rindt's famous letter from 1969 criticising wings as part of its 75th anniversary commemorations.

[Nemo1965]

Autosport has republished Jochen Rindt's famous letter from 1969 criticising wings as part of its 75th anniversary commemorations.

 

Though... Jochen was of course not talking about proper wings like we know them since the seventies ('I'm not talking about spoilers that are incorporated') but aerofoils on thin stalks, which were so demonstrably unable to resist wind-resistance that I am still amazed that a genius like Colin Chapman every thought it was a good idea. 

 

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 April 2025 - 09:44.

[PayasYouRace]

Autosport has republished Jochen Rindt's famous letter from 1969 criticising wings as part of its 75th anniversary commemorations.

He was instantly wrong on point one. We have road going production cars with wings.

Most of his comments really only fall within the context of the time. He says who knows what forces a wing will create as if we don’t have wind tunnels and CFD and engineers capable of designing these things. Actually, CFD excepted they could do that back then too, but the aerospace crossover into F1 had only just begun. The past half century has shown that wings are not especially dangerous or prone to failure.

He is right to point out the problems of turbulent wakes, and it’s interesting that that was experienced right from the start. But we know it’s possible to design winged racing cars that can race well. We’ve seen it all over the world for a long time.

[7MGTEsup]

I'm not an aero person but, how feasible is it to have a ground effect car with no wings at all? Is it hard to balance the car without the wings? If wings aren't required for balance, why not go with 100% ground effect with active suspension so porpoising isn't an issue?

[MikeTekRacing]

I'm not an aero person but, how feasible is it to have a ground effect car with no wings at all? Is it hard to balance the car without the wings? If wings aren't required for balance, why not go with 100% ground effect with active suspension so porpoising isn't an issue?

wings tend to be great for sponsors...

[PayasYouRace]

I'm not an aero person but, how feasible is it to have a ground effect car with no wings at all? Is it hard to balance the car without the wings? If wings aren't required for balance, why not go with 100% ground effect with active suspension so porpoising isn't an issue?

It is possible. However you’d probably want to retain some adjustable flap elements for circuit specific tuning. You want to be able to adjust your overall drag and downforce for lap time, and then also the balance so the driver can achieve it.