83 replies to this topic

[Massa]

http://www.nextgen-a...oins,81541.html

 

A Team director told to french magazine Auto Hebdo that :

 

- Mercedes engine is 1.4 seconds minimum faster than Renault and Ferrari engine.

- 7 tenths because the engine is 18 kgs lighter, and 7 tenths because of the 70 HP power advantage.

- Teams with Mercedes engine can do two laps consecutively at full speed while Ferrari and Renault engines only allow to use 75% of the power on one lap.

- Even with a average chassis and aero, with a Mercedes engine it's the guarantee to be at the four or fifth row at least.

- All these advantage with a price almost equal to Ferrari and Renault.

Edited by Massa, 14 September 2014 - 09:39.

[PokePoke]

 

- Even with a average chassis and aero, with a Mercedes engine it's the guarantee to be at the four or fifth row at least.

- All these advantage with a price almost equal to Ferrari and Renault.

 

 

 

 So why Marussia, Lotus, Sauber and Caterham have not signed deal with Merc for 2015? Cheaper and BETTER engine than Ferrari and Renault - this is killer deal for me.

And how bad is Force India chassis ?

Edited by PokePoke, 14 September 2014 - 09:48.

[rf90]

http://www.nextgen-a...oins,81541.html
 
A Team director told to french magazine Auto Hebdo that :
 
- Mercedes engine is 1.4 seconds minimum faster than Renault and Ferrari engine.
- 7 tenths because the engine is 18 kgs lighter, and 7 tenths because of the 70 HP power advantage.
- Teams with Mercedes engine can do two laps consecutively at full speed while Ferrari and Renault engines only allow to use 75% of the power on one lap.
- Even with a average chassis and aero, with a Mercedes engine it's the guarantee to be at the four or fifth row at least.
- All these advantage with a price almost equal to Ferrari and Renault.

They've done a good job then haven't they.

[Massa]

 So why Marussia, Lotus, Sauber and Caterham have not signed deal with Merc for 2015? Cheaper and BETTER engine than Ferrari and Renault - this is killer deal for me.

And how bad is Force India chassis ?

 

No mate, the Mercedes engine is a little bit more expensive. Sauber is already late in payment with Ferrari who have the cheapest engine. I think Lotus is in talk with Mercedes for next year, Marussia will keep Ferrari engines because Ferrari give them the gearbox, in fact i think Ferrari give to Marussia all the back end but i'm not sure.

Edited by Massa, 14 September 2014 - 09:57.

[Ducks]

Force India must be a Pontiac Aztec if thats the case.

[Kristian]

Lotus have signed for Mercedes haven't they? Or is it not a done deal yet? 

 

Then there is a limit to how many teams can sign for one engine, so that's why the whole grid isn't going for it. 

[Paincake]

Who knows, maybe Honda engines will wipe the floor with Mercedes next year.

[Radion]

Lotus have signed for Mercedes haven't they? Or is it not a done deal yet?

Then there is a limit to how many teams can sign for one engine, so that's why the whole grid isn't going for it.

Yes and yes.
The deal is done, lotus just needs to confirm it. They won't do so because they're still 'working' with Renault.

The other thing, I think I read somewhere that an engine manufacturer is allowed to supply four/five teams max. With McLaren going Honda next year, lotus git the remaining spot.

[MrMan]

Yes and yes.
The deal is done, lotus just needs to confirm it. They won't do so because they're still 'working' with Renault.

The other thing, I think I read somewhere that an engine manufacturer is allowed to supply four/five teams max. With McLaren going Honda next year, lotus git the remaining spot.

 

In Ted's Notebook last week he said that Lotus haven't paid their deposit yet and when he asked Gastaldi about it all he mentioned were Renault engines.

[Lights]

- 7 tenths because the engine is 18 kgs lighter, 

 

Using that logic, weight-corrected Mark Webber is a 4 times WDC.

[Tourgott]

Who knows, maybe Honda engines will wipe the floor with Mercedes next year.

 

Very unlikely. Mercedes worked on their engine for at least 3 years and especially in combination with actual current F1 experience and top engineers.

 

As long as all engines are not equal again, which will take long time, Mercedes domination will stay.

Edited by Tourgott, 14 September 2014 - 10:30.

[Hyatt]

1.4sec huh? I don't buy it ... imagine how crappy the McLaren chassis would be ..

[Jovanotti]

Assuming all the cars are underweight without ballast, the 18kg = 0,7s is BS. It affects the amount of freely distributable weight and costs performance, but the car's not that much heavier or lighter. The advantage thus is never the 1,4s, although it makes for better headlines.

Edited by Jovanotti, 14 September 2014 - 10:35.

[Thomas99]

I would hazard a guess the gap between the RBR and the Merc is entirely down to engine. Look at the gap and you will have your answer.

[zottzell]

1.4sec huh? I don't buy it ... imagine how crappy the McLaren chassis would be ..

Maybe its the drivers, I've never seen Button as a really fast driver and its hard to say if Magnussen is top material as well.

 

Whats clear though is that the outcome of this season was decided even before the season started as its impossible to develop the cars to make up for the engine deficit.

[krapmeister]

Using that logic, weight-corrected Mark Webber is a 4 times WDC.

Not unless F1 also had rolling starts...    

Edited by krapmeister, 14 September 2014 - 10:43.

[Peter3hg]

http://www.nextgen-a...oins,81541.html

 

A Team director told to french magazine Auto Hebdo that :

 

- 7 tenths because the engine is 18 kgs lighter

 

 

Have they never heard of minimum car weight?

Edited by Peter3hg, 14 September 2014 - 10:47.

[nosecone]

WOW that is one crappy estimation

[SealTheDiffuser]

Have they never heard of minimum car weight?

 

have you never heard of overweight 2014 cars/PU's and/or ballast that is weight that is put there where it is perfomance wise the best...

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 14 September 2014 - 10:58.

[TheRacingElf]

A Team director told to french magazine Auto Hebdo that

Let me guess, that "team director" is Christian Horner...

[george1981]

I thought there was a minimum weight for the power unit? Are Mercedes on that limit whereas the other engines are heavier?

[Peter3hg]

have you never heard of overweight 2014 cars/PU's and/or ballast that is weight that is put there where it is perfomance wise the best...

 

I've heard no suggestion that any of the top teams are overweight. Having 18kg extra ballast isn't going to make 0.7 tenths of a second difference.

[goingthedistance]

A timely information drop when you consider Renault and Ferrari have opened up the equalisation dialogue recently...

[Massa]

A timely information drop when you consider Renault and Ferrari have opened up the equalisation dialogue recently...

 

 

Good one

[LORDBYRON]

They've done a good job haven't they. great if lotus get a merc deal.

 

Lets all hail  Pastor for pole at every race

Edited by iii, 14 September 2014 - 11:43.

[SealTheDiffuser]

I've heard no suggestion that any of the top teams are overweight. Having 18kg extra ballast isn't going to make 0.7 tenths of a second difference.

 

then you are badly informed

[ollebompa]

As Thomas99 said, I think the gap between RBR and Merc shows the engine differences, give or take a few tenths.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If you added 18kg of fuel would the car go .7s slower?

[S3baman]

While I do think that Merc has a power advantage, I don't buy at all this 1.4s faster BS. RBR is 100% at the weight limit not above it, and so is Ferrari (Kimi just received a lighter car at Monza, or maybe Spa I forgot which). If you look at fuel corrected numbers, 10kg is worth about 3-4 tenths depending on the race track so at least that estimation is correct. However, simply moving around less or more ballast will not give you the same performance difference.

 

The bigger point imo is the fact that Merc engine can be used in a race situation, for 2 quali laps back to back if such a situation occurs. That is mega considering that neither of the other manufacturers can do one complete lap.

[F1Lurker]

I agree. The alleged weight advantage (~18kilos) can be mitigated to a very significant extent with ballast.

I think that a combination of engine HP advantage and advantages in packaging accounts for MB's superiority.

[ElDictatore]

If you added 18kg of fuel would the car go .7s slower?

 

Depends on the circuit. But I remember from the days of refuelling that in most cases 10kg = 0.4 secs - at least that's what the teams always said.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Is it that high? I remember from CART coverage it was 10lbs(4.5kg?) is .1 second.

[ElDictatore]

Is it that high? I remember from CART coverage it was 10lbs(4.5kg?) is .1 second.

 

Apparently yes. If I remember correctly they lose most of the 4 tenths in high speed corners, which is probably the biggest difference between CART and F1

[maverick69]

That means that the McLaren and Force India chassis are both roughly on par with the Marussia and Caterham.

 

Hmmmmmmm. Bollocks me thinks.............

[Kyo]

So Ferrari and Renault engines have the same weight, produce the same amount of power and both only let you use full power at 75% on one lap. Maybe Ferrari and Renault partnered to build the same engine...

[muramasa]

They want to say their own chassis is mediocre at best?

 

 

 

Inner conflict?

[Metronazol]

No mate, the Mercedes engine is a little bit more expensive. Sauber is already late in payment with Ferrari who have the cheapest engine. I think Lotus is in talk with Mercedes for next year, Marussia will keep Ferrari engines because Ferrari give them the gearbox, in fact i think Ferrari give to Marussia all the back end but i'm not sure.

 

Merc is the cheapest engine according to Joe Saward, hence how Lotus have managed to fudge a deal together for them next year.

[redreni]

1.4 seconds per what? Per lap? Which circuit?

 

As others have mentioned, without fuel, all the top cars weigh the same as they're all down to the minimum limit. An 18KG lighter engine allows more scope to run heavier drivers, but as Merc have two pretty light drivers it probably means they run more ballast, which might help their weight distribution, but it's hard to quantify how much advantage that gives. As far as I know we're not in a 2009 situation where everyone struggled to put enough weight on the front axle, so the non-KERS teams had a big advantage because they could shift the ballast to the front. This year, I'm not at all convinced it makes much difference, as long as you're able to run on the limit.

 

I suspect the more relevant figures are the poneys, both the 70bhp extra from the ICE and, although we don't have figures for it, what sounds like an even bigger advantage in ERS power. If I remember rightly, the rate at which you can discharge stored energy is limited by the regulations, so if Mercedes are able to discharge for two consecutive laps and Ferrari and Renault can only discharge for 0.75 laps at a time, that looks to me like a pretty sound thrashing has been administered there.

 

Personally I think Mercedes has done a much better job and they deserve to win. I think the other teams should be given the opportunity to improve, but not before the end of the agreed freeze. If anything, I think Mercedes are hard done by, because if Mercedes and Renault both bulld a road car and Mercedes' engine is 18KG lighter than Renault's, then all other things being equal the Mercedes car will be 18KG lighter than the Renault, which will give it marginally superior economy and performance. It's only in F1 that if you do the best job in making a lightweight engine, you have to put tungsten ballast in your car to even things up. They should keep the crash tests, and then introduce a minimum weight for the driver and seat (so that lighter drivers have to carry seat ballast to make them all effectively weigh the same as the heaviest driver, which would offer the heavier drivers significantly better protection than they get from the current rules) and then they should free up car weight and have it as a performance differentiator.

Edited by redreni, 14 September 2014 - 16:55.

[MikeV1987]

last year their was talk of merc having a huge power advantage before the 2013 season even ended, so i believe the power numbers. weight i am not so sure, 40 lbs lighter in a 1500 lb car is a significant advantage thats for sure.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Apparently yes. If I remember correctly they lose most of the 4 tenths in high speed corners, which is probably the biggest difference between CART and F1

Makes sense.  High downforce has the effect of leveraging the weight disadvantage.

[SpeedRacer`]

Is it that high? I remember from CART coverage it was 10lbs(4.5kg?) is .1 second.

 

Maybe in F1 it's more, because each kg is a bigger % of the overall weight
 

[johnmhinds]

Is it that high? I remember from CART coverage it was 10lbs(4.5kg?) is .1 second.

 

Wasn't CART's minimum weight around 25% more than an F1 car?

 

That extra fuel weight would have made less difference in a heavier car.

[Clatter]

then you are badly informed

Which teams have stated their cars are overweight then?

[ElDictatore]

Which teams have stated their cars are overweight then?

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113105

 

Otherwise I couldn't find anything official. At the beginning of the season Ted Kravitz has mentioned that the Ferrrari is overweight by around 18kg - and others might face the same problem though he admitted that it's a rumour. Didn't Mercedes just bring an update were they managed to drop a few pounds?

Edited by ElDictatore, 14 September 2014 - 19:54.

[redreni]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113105

 

Otherwise I couldn't find anything official. At the beginning of the season Ted Kravitz has mentioned that the Ferrrari is overweight by around 18kg - and others might face the same problem though he admitted that it's a rumour. Didn't Mercedes just bring an update were they managed to drop a few pounds?

 

Right, so there's no suggestion that the Ferrari was ever over the overall weight limit, only over the PU minimum. Even Sauber have lost weight and have needed ballast to hit the overall minimum weight limit since Barcelona, according to Ben Edwards during Barcelona FP1. So if your PU is heavy but your overall car and driver weight is ballasted up to the minimum weight limit, there's no overall weight penalty. There may be a weight distribution / high centre of gravity issue, but not an actual weight penalty.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

These numbers seem plucked from thin air.

[tifosi]

  Is the 1.4 second advantage over 500 miles, 100 yards, 1 lap, and entire race?

 

  Pretty meaningless number.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Which teams have stated their cars are overweight then?

 

Sauber was overweight, Force India was overweight, and also the Ferrari at the start of the season was above 691KG (yes, rumors, but Ferrari would never admit something like that)

But:

All Teams apart from Mercedes wanted a higher minimum weight at the start of the season, at first Ferrari was also against it together with Mercedes but then Ferrari changed opinion and also wanted a higher minimum weight. Because they had to add a few kilos somewhere? Turbo-cover maybe...

Also 13/18 Kg in the wrong place can cost a tenth or more over one lap even if all cars at 691KG.

[Tommay]

Sauber was overweight, Force India was overweight, and also the Ferrari at the start of the season was above 691KG (yes, rumors, but Ferrari would never admit something like that)
But:
All Teams apart from Mercedes wanted a higher minimum weight at the start of the season, at first Ferrari was also against it together with Mercedes but then Ferrari changed opinion and also wanted a higher minimum weight. Because they had to add a few kilos somewhere? Turbo-cover maybe...
Also 13/18 Kg in the wrong place can cost a tenth or more over one lap even if all cars at 691KG.

Fore India were always good on weight I believe....

[LORDBYRON]

If you added 18kg of fuel would the car go .7s slower?

no all cars have the same 100kg limit per race would only work in places like monaco if you were to massively under fuel the car on a gamble of a lot of safety cars 

 

So Ferrari and Renault engines have the same weight, produce the same amount of power and both only let you use full power at 75% on one lap. Maybe Ferrari and Renault partnered to build the same engine... 

why ? could only think of a cost point.

 

 

? if so why has Renualt jumped leaps and bounds and Ferrari have not.  

Edited by iii, 14 September 2014 - 22:55.