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Chapman and Clark


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#101 Nemo1965

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 08:53

Tony Rudd with 'Chunky' at Silverstone in 1963 when neither dreamed the other would become his employer/employee...  One might debate which one is 'chunkier'?

 

https://www.dropbox....HAPMAN.jpg?dl=0

 

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

 

DCN

 

Forgive me for being an ignoramus, but I never understood the nickname 'Chunky'. That CC was not a basket-player; okay. But I never even remember seeing photo's of him having a sparetyre around his waist. He always looked slender on the pictures I saw. So what is the deal with that?



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#102 bill p

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 10:02

As this thread is now a month old, perhaps HISTORY FAN could let us know how he feels it is going and if he is any closer to getting an answer to his original question?

 

Yes, let's have some feedback HistoryFan



#103 MonzaDriver

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 10:39

This comes from dimly remembered overheard conversations and comments from Lotus colleagues many years ago, but Colin Chapman seemed not to like large engines, preferring high-revving smaller ones, I think he'd have felt that a 7 litre Chevy was somehow "cheating", and not racing in the truest sense as he knew it, a brute force solution. Incidentally, although some might have referred to him as "Chunky" in the wider world, no-one at Lotus used that term, and certainly never in his hearing. He didn't like the name, and the only person who used it often, probably not to his face, was "uncle" Tony Rudd. who was probably fairly safe in his job. Almost without exception our employer was "The Old Man", or sometimes "ACBC", if we were speaking to him it was always "Mr Chapman". Some of the idiotic and sadly uninformed mud-slinging in this thread has obscured the fact that Chapman was hugely respected within Lotus, and to only a slightly lesser extent in the wider racing business, even by people who didn't like him very much.

Dear Kayemod,

we dont see things the same manner and also we dont hear things the same way.

I told you I saw Peterson's Lotus sit / squat on the rear axes almost touching the ground, and you tells me it was a broken brake. But you not specify further.

But it's strange...... a rear brake failure, no more forces on the rear disks, and the car sits on the back.............

About the way mechanics address to him, I heard them saying Colin, but obviously you know more about that.

I am wondering about this dislike of Mr Chapman about big engines. A small hig-revving engine is also something delicate that need a lot of " maintenance"

A 7 liters working at slow revving mean a lot of power and reliability. For example Formula Renault 3.5 an engine last for a season.

But in the history of motorsport, the main choice among the federations is small engine - high revving. Almost everytime.

Another common trait between Mr Chapman and the history of motor racing.

 

Dear Nemo 1965,

the nickname " Chunky " was for his waistline that goes up and down.

MonzaDriver



#104 HistoryFan

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 14:54

Yes, let's have some feedback HistoryFan

 

The discussion is very very interesting, especially the first site of the thread. I have not much time in the last days, so I did not read all posts quite well.

 



#105 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 17:01

Colin was extremely vain and always had problems controlling his weight, and being comfortable with the size he happened to be at any given time. Knowing it was a sensitive matter with him, many rivals adopted the term 'Chunky' simply because it sat well with 'Chapman'. It got to him, and that pleased his friendly tormentors, and his unfriendly ones too...especially those whose cars couldn't touch his on track.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 October 2014 - 17:02.


#106 Rob Ryder

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 19:45

To answer Spa's question above, I joined the company which published 'Motor Racing' monthly straight from school in 1963. The magazine was based in a Portakabin sited in the car park by the Scratcher's Lane gate into Brands Hatch circuit. When teams tested or raced there we would often be visited by the glitterati, or see them in the Brands canteen, for a cup of tea and a wad. I think my principals John Blunsden and Alan Brinton introduced me to them as 'the boy'. I got on well with the magazine's photographer Geoff Goddard, and his friend Cyril Posthumus later became the magazine's editor, and he introduced me to Jenks. With the acceptance of that widely liked and respected group, doors opened...but I was too slow-witted and dumb to take full advantage of that. I would largely hover and watch. Respectfully. But in reality with my jaw dropping. Graham - Gauld - was different - he had grown up in racing with Ecurie Ecosse, the Reivers, Jimmy and Jackie...so pay heed to what he says here.

DCN


Doug, that has me interested!
After BRM Vol.4 is completed how about an autobiography... unabridged of course...
Rob

Edited by Rob Ryder, 19 October 2014 - 19:46.


#107 hillmotorsports

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 19:50

Sign me up for an autographed copy please!

#108 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 20:49

Fellers - please - that is not going to happen. There's no worthwhile story in having merely watched great people achieve great things... I made the mistake of buying former BBC political correspondent John Sergeant's autobiography recently, only to find that he similarly had done just that. The storyline was pathetically thin - his achievements minuscule, seriously diminishing, publication a serious mistake... Almost as great as mine in buying it.

DCN

#109 kayemod

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 22:15

Colin was extremely vain...

DCN

 

That's a bit unfair Doug, "vain" I'll allow, but "extremely" is pushing things a bit. On a scale of one to ten, I'd rate him as something between six and seven, but maybe he was making more of an effort to impress you than he did for his minions. Having said that though, be did sometimes cause amusement among employees, most notably when he went through a brief period of dyeing his hair to disguise the grey, he might have almost got away with this if he hadn't chosen a strange reddish colour, can you imagine a red haired Colin Chapman? I think that Hazel or one of his women friends probably had a word in his ear, as this phase didn't last long, but it came as quite a shock the first time we say him walking through the open plan office. At other times his height varied from day to day depending on which shoes he was wearing, he wasn't a short man, I'd guess at around 5"9" or 5'10", but it seems that he wanted to be taller, so he sometimes wore built-up shoes, maybe when he had a meeting with Engineering Director 6'5"+ Mike Kimberley. I wouldn't describe this trait as vanity, but he was a bit keen on cleanliness and tidyness. Everyone tidied up in the factory if they thought he might be coming round, and there was nothing out of place in his office, everything arranged neatly and square and in-line on his desk, just like the stories I've been told about Bernie Ecclestone. I went to his home two or three times, and it was spotless and absolutely immaculate, just as if it had been readied for a photo shoot by Ideal Home. I left Lotus some years before his death, but I never saw any obvious signs of overweight, not slim maybe, but no rolls of fat either, it's seems odd that the "Chunky" tag stuck with him when in reality he was anything but, and I wondered if it was something dating from his childhood that he'd been unable to shake off. In the earlier acted sequences in that stab in the back TV documentary, Colin was depicted wearing a baggy cardigan, working at a drawing board using a scruffy wood pencil with a rubber on the end. Whoever dreamed all that up didn't know the man at all.



#110 hillmotorsports

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 22:33

Fellers - please - that is not going to happen. There's no worthwhile story in having merely watched great people achieve great things... I made the mistake of buying former BBC political correspondent John Sergeant's autobiography recently, only to find that he similarly had done just that. The storyline was pathetically thin - his achievements minuscule, seriously diminishing, publication a serious mistake... Almost as great as mine in buying it.DCN


Sounds like Shakespeare to me...
Me thinks you protest too loudly!

Having just read Eoin Young's 2 autobiographies for nth time. I feel you have AT LEAST as much to offer your faithful readers
Don't try the shy routine, or hide behind modesty. Even though you have likely forgotten more than most of us will ever know about racing, you STILL could offer many insights that the vast majority of us on the wrong side of the fences would ever be privy to.
Get on with it, your audience hangs in suspense!

#111 Nemo1965

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:12

Regarding the chunky-nick name: if Chapman thought (or his friends thought) he 'struggled' with his weight, he should have been alive to see how obese the current Europeans are. I swear: every male former student of mine who has left the school for about six years (meaning there are 30 or nearly) has a spare-tyre around the waist that mr. Chapman never even threatened to acquire.



#112 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:17

No it is not. You have no time to read the responses to a thread you created? You and your alter-ego Monza Driver should be banned from this forum.

 

I created this thread in the early stage of September. So is there any rule that says that I have to read this thread every day. I'm too busy to spend much time in this forum now due to a big illness I am confronted since about two weeks. Sorry for having cancer... :rolleyes:
 



#113 doc knutsen

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 16:39

I created this thread in the early stage of September. So is there any rule that says that I have to read this thread every day. I'm too busy to spend much time in this forum now due to a big illness I am confronted since about two weeks. Sorry for having cancer... :rolleyes:
 

My best wishes for a speedy recovery, HistoryFan. In view of the aggression shown  by one or two regulars here towards you and MonzaDriver, I hope this piece of news will make future contributions to this thread turn a little bit more decent in their choice of phrase.


Edited by doc knutsen, 21 October 2014 - 17:42.


#114 Dipster

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 16:57

I created this thread in the early stage of September. So is there any rule that says that I have to read this thread every day. I'm too busy to spend much time in this forum now due to a big illness I am confronted since about two weeks. Sorry for having cancer... :rolleyes:
 

Sorry to hear this. I too send my wishes for a speedy recovery for you and hope you and your family find the strength to cope with it.



#115 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 17:01

Include me in this ... best wishes for a good prognosis and speedy recovery.

DCN

#116 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 17:29

Agree absolutely with the above. Very best wishes for a speedy and full recovery, History Fan.

#117 PCC

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 18:46

Please add me to the list of well-wishers. May the fighting spirit of your motorsport heroes be an inspiration.



#118 D-Type

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 19:22

Add my good wishes please.



#119 Graham Gauld

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 20:21

I am sure we are all behind you.

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#120 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:07

I am very sorry to hear this, Michael. Wishing you all the strength in the world for a difficult time ahead.

#121 MonzaDriver

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 13:11

Dear HistoryFan,

I wish you deeply all the fortitude, the physical streght, and the luck,

you'll need on the oncoming weeks.

Good luck, good luck, good luck.

MonzaDriver.



#122 427MkIV

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 13:31

Best wishes, HistoryFan.

 

This thread has been fascinating for me. Growing up in eastern North Carolina, I heard far more about Richard Petty than Colin Chapman. But somehow, I knew the JPS Lotus 72. Probably from the Ford and Firestone ads at local garages and stores.



#123 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 16:44

Dear HistoryFan...

 

Wishing you a speedy recovery.  Any yes, it can happen...  :up:



#124 fuzzi

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 18:31

Very sorry to hear about your illness.

 

Best of luck.



#125 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 19:41

I know what this sort of thing is like...

doc knutsen has said it all, I agree 100%!

#126 HistoryFan

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 19:45

thank you all guys.

 

My chances of recovering is very, very good - it's testicular cancer in the very early stage, so we are all are very optimistic.



#127 Nick Planas

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 22:44

I'd like to ad to the sentiments expressed above, wishing you the best and swiftest recovery.

 

As also mentioned, a good idea for people to think a little before making negative comments about other posters; even comments made perhaps in a light-hearted way don't always come across that way...

 

I've enjoyed this thread very much, especially hearing from people who knew both men personally. I'd love to hear other little snippets; there must surely still be a few untold nuggets about their relationship over the years, which are printable?



#128 JacnGille

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 23:14

Get well soon.



#129 bill p

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:22


 

Wishing you a speedy recovery

 

I had a different cancer some years ago followed by chemo and found the "TNF" a great diversion

 

Thoughts are with you - optimism is importatnt

 

Bill P



#130 RogerFrench

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:34

Best of luck, History Fan. Get well soon.

#131 eccolo

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 02:26

This 1967 interview of Jim Clark seems relevant to the thread and has not been mentioned yet:

 

http://www.motorspor...im-clark-457812

 

One has to admire his forthrightness regardless of Ford, Firestone and Chapman sensitivities. At this stage of his life, apparently no longer the shy or reserved figure depicted at times.

 

 



#132 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 10:16

Great piece isn't it. Jimmy was very comfortable with David Phipps who had been close to him and the team for years. Just peerlessly honest too. No media minder hovering at their elbows there...

DCN

#133 kayemod

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 10:50

Great piece isn't it. Jimmy was very comfortable with David Phipps who had been close to him and the team for years. Just peerlessly honest too. No media minder hovering at their elbows there...

DCN

 

Yes, an interesting piece, but don't we have a small pachyderm dans la chambre here in the form of Ford and Cosworth? Keith Duckworth seems to have been fairly confident of luring Jim Clark over to drive their 4wd car in 1969, presumably with help and financial inducements from Ford. While Cosworth eventually gave up on their 4wd car, they were making progress, and development continued more or less until Jim's death at Hockenheim, after which the project was more or less abandoned. I haven't got much more to go on here than excerpts from Graham Robson's Duckworth-authorised work on Cosworth company history, but why was Keith apparently confident of being able to prise Jim away from Lotus, and did Jim ever reveal his views on this scheme?



#134 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 17:16

Interesting - sadly we won't know the principals' answers now.

DCN

#135 TIPO61

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 20:47

On and Off Topic, There is a wonderful picture of Clark & Chapman at, I believe, the Glen Motor Inn (year unremembered), basking in the CASH from the F-1 race just won. Maybe Mike Argetsinger has it. Don't know. Great photo though. Love to see it again.


Edited by TIPO61, 23 October 2014 - 20:48.


#136 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 22:02

Maybe Jerry Entin can find it?

Probably there's a copy at the Glen Motor Inn... I don't recall seeing it there, though. But there's lots of pictures there.

#137 DogEarred

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:42

Great piece isn't it. Jimmy was very comfortable with David Phipps who had been close to him and the team for years. Just peerlessly honest too. No media minder hovering at their elbows there...

DCN

 

May I be allowed to go O/T for just a second?

 

Can anyone tell us a briefly about David Phipps? I guess he was a respected jounalist? I had started reading Motor Sport in them days but hadn't yet started reading Autosport.

 

Thanks in advance.



#138 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 07:08

There are many, many mentions of David Phipps on this forum in relation to his books, articles and photos, but very little info on the man himself. There's one brief thread about his photographic agency:

http://forums.autosp...s-photographic/

and there's a thread about his former wife Priscilla, who wrote as Elizabeth Hayward:

http://forums.autosp...zabeth-hayward/

This thread includes a post from their son Simon Phipps.

#139 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:34

This 1967 interview of Jim Clark seems relevant to the thread and has not been mentioned yet:

 

http://www.motorspor...im-clark-457812

 

One has to admire his forthrightness regardless of Ford, Firestone and Chapman sensitivities. At this stage of his life, apparently no longer the shy or reserved figure depicted at times.

 

Fascinating stuff. Especially because the idea about the Ford Cosworth in general is, that it was such a technological leap forward, one assumes this automatically meant that the driveability of the engine (and the car) was improved immediately after it was bolted against the Lotus. Which was obviously not the case, considering the adapting troubles Jim Clark describes.

 

The other thing that I find fascinating, is that I always held the belief that Clark was unbeatable in the 1,5 litre F1 (banning mechanical failures), and ' only the best' in the 3-litre F1. In this article - if you hold this prejudice - that seems to filter through somehow... 



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#140 2F-001

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 10:02

I think the DFV was well-known for being rather peaky in its early incarnations; but Clark never really got to experience 3-litre cars in a fully developed and more refined state did he?

#141 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 10:56

I think the DFV was well-known for being rather peaky in its early incarnations; but Clark never really got to experience 3-litre cars in a fully developed and more refined state did he?

 

I think that is true. I have an article somewhere, written by Jim Clark himself, about 'The Art of Driving a F1-car', I believed it described driving a 1,5 litre car... and there sounds not a shred of doubt in it how, where and when. I would not say it is 'cocky' but it is very, very full of confidence.

 

The above posted interview has shown me a Jim Clark I never encountered in historic material before: someone who is genuinely puzzled by the way his race-car reacts.

 

But perhaps I have not yet read enough...  :blush:



#142 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 13:25

Obviously, judging from your DFV comment...

#143 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 14:00

I don't think he cares what country they inhabit...

He's ready to irritate anyone who comes along.

#144 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 14:42

I'm sorry if I "offended" you, I was just encouraging you to follow through on your own observation!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 October 2014 - 14:43.


#145 D-Type

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 16:53

Nemo1965, don't you realise that Michael Ferner is German.  You should make allowances for those who are not native English speakers!