36 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

Does anyone here wish that the FIA would finally let the Imola circuit to be remodelled back to its former glory without both of these Chicanes.

Villeneuve is bad enough but with the Tamburello Chicane passing is almost impossible.

I know its dangerous but the chicane put there was only a panic move by the FIA to make it look like they were doin something in the light of both deaths at the circuit.

But to be honest the only other big crash I can think of is Berger in 89. And to be honest that was only bad because of the big fire.
So who here would like a return to the old circuit.

Niall

[Ross Stonefeld]

Get rid of the final chicane, the first two chicanes, and tighten the hairpin and man oh man the overtaking battles would be insane. They'd be hard on the power from Rivazza 2 all the way to braking for the hairpin. Although I wonder if the approach speed would then make Tamburello a corner that would cause the aero-understeer problems

[ehagar]

No, not unless you only want touring cars to run there.

If they could move the walls back, I'm sure they would. But with all of the houses, rivers, etc. near by, that doesn't look likely.

I believe there have been a few bad accidents at Imola. Gilles Villeneuve had one, and he walked away. Berger, Rubens, there are probably more...

[Ali_G]

Yes, but I think only Bergers one was at Tamburello if I am right.

THe real danger on the track is Tosa.

Villeneuve is sort of needed but not the Tamburello chicane. it was just knee jerk from the FIA to put tha one in.

Remember after Senna's death. Remember all the chicanes.

Do any of ye remember the insanely slow one they put into Estoril for 95. It was jus stupid.

Niall

[Bodzolca]

I would definitely get rid of Villeneuve chicane, but not so sure about Tamburello. Accidents were really rare at Tamburello as it was taken flat out, but if something was wrong in that corner, the accident was severe. The runoff area is just too short due to the river.

[Ali_G]

Tamburello really isn't that dangerous. They could simpley straighten it out a bit more.

The real danger is the run up to Tosa.

As shown to what happened to Ratzenburger, if your steering column broke or something you wouldn't stand a chance.

Niall

[kenny]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Tamburello really isn't that dangerous. They could simpley straighten it out a bit more.


Niall

Tamburello never actually was a danger part... to the drivers it was just a straight line... the problem was that IF you had a problem there... It would be serious accident...

They made the changes bcs of Senna... But I honestly feel, Senna would NOT have liked all this...

[ehagar]

Oh, accidents at Tamburello only... got to think about that one for a minute.

The only ones that cross my mind are Nelson Piquet, Riccardo Patrese, Michele Alboreto, and Gerhard Berger. Of course the only fatality that springs to mind is Senna

I don't want to remember it vividly, but what corner did poor Roland Ratzenberger go off on? Was it Villeneuve? The only image I have of him was how sick I felt when I saw his head rolling around.

[Ali_G]

As, I said, it was simpley a knee jerk reaction by the FIA.

Tosa, though could be dangerous if you were going 200 mph + going into it.

Niall

[Paste]

Ali, I thought exactly the same thing to myself today. It's been 7 years since Senna and Ratzenberger's accidents. Given the increased safety of the cars, along with the fact that they could put a lot of tirewalls along there, I think it's time to restore the circuit to it's 1994 and earlier glory. With the cars being so close now we'd likely see some great battles!

[Paste]

Ehagar, yes, it was the Villeneuve corner where Roland had his accident, as far as I can recall, hence the current chicane config of the corner.

[cartfan76]

As I"m finishing my race @ Imola on GP3, I began thinging that I don't really mind Tamburello chicane...it's the Villeneuve one I really hate..it basicly makes the entrance into Tosa usless as far as an overtaking spot. W/out the V. Chicane, you've have enough speed built up from coming out of the first one to possibly set up a pass goin' into Tosa..I'm guessing in the ballpark or around 190mph or so..'cause I'm just getting into 6th gear as I've got to break for the V. Chicane at around 170 or so.. Just thought I'd add my 2cents.
Regards,
Justin

[whit]

How about restoring Tamburello to it's old glory, but instead of trying to find more run-off area, eliminate it all together. Put the wall right up against the circuit like at Indy. That way the cars, if they lost control, would never be at a severe angle to the wall. They'd just slide along it. Maybe even bank the corner.

[Bodzolca]

Hm Whit, you know what, you're probably right. I've never even thought of that, but it makes sense. The only way you can lose it at Tamburello is if steering column brakes (as allegedly happened to Senna) or if the front or rear wing falls down (as happened to Ratzenberger in Villeneuve). It's impossible to find more runoff area at Tamburello, so yeah, why not eliminate it.

As for Villeneuve, I would change the pre-95 corner to be longer and thus have larger radius.

[Witt]

Couldn't agree with you more Ali. Seriously, it makes me sick with frustration watching races at Imola because the cars can just not overtake there anymore. As Paste has already said, the cars themselves have advanced far enough in terms of safety to make up the difference the lack of run-off area creates.

At the very least they should get rid of Villeneuve chicane. As almost everyone has noticed, it ruined the overtaking opportunity into tosa, and if Villeneuve was restored to it's rightful glory, the cars might have enough time to negotiate an overtaking manouver.

[Ali_G]

Very true. Today's race just showed us that if these two chicanes were not present then passing would be easy at the circuit.

Niall

[ehagar]

At least Montoya showed it can be done...

[Ali_G]

it has to be said though that Trulli got a bad run ot of the last chicane, that coupled with Williams straight line speed and the balls of Montoya. I don't think many other drivers would have tried to go around the outside there.

Niall

[ehagar]

Apparently Raikkonen lost his steering wheel through Tosa at 150 mph.

Not a good irony

[Schummy]

I agree with whit. Tamburello could be treated as a oval curve. When I was watching the race I was thinking about what magnificent could be Imola reverted to former status, even without the hateful Variante Alta and maybe without Variante Bassa. It could be a hell of a track, with Tamburello (with less downforce it would not be flat out), the great Tossa breaking zone (a F1 classic), the great blind Piratella lovely Acqua Minerale and the wonderful off camber breaking Rivazza. And a lot of long-long straights (Rivazza-Tamburello-Tossa and Acqua-Rivazza)

I know it would not be politically correct at all because the high speed and the difficulties making bigger run off areas, but this kind of great tracks are so crucial for me that I'd prefer to modify the cars in order to be able to run a GP there (or in glorious circuits like that). Frankly, I'd like to reduce a lot of downforce (what I hate, because it does car feel like karts and destroy racing action) and even, if it is absolutely necesary I'd do for a partial cover of wheels, because I increasingly get very scared of those cars at 300kph touching wheels and launching one another at the air.

I'd sacrifice the classic image if we would get proper tracks and great racing. But... I know with the current powers and money, this is not going to happen. They just look the viewing figures and go on with their show (money). They don't bother about the hardcore F1 tiffosi, who lives for the sport, and who, ultimately are who will go to support the sport in the future, when another new megamoney sport steals the show off F1.

[Mirko Pavlovic]

Villeneuve makes Tosa quite useless, they might as well join Villeneuve with Piratella (if that is possible) and make it in to a real turn.

They also need to drop Variante Alta, all it does is prevent any overtaking into Rivazza.

[Ali_G]

Yeah Variante Alta is just a joke. There is plenty of run of area at the bottom of Rivazza.

How about taking away the chicane before the start line. Could give a lot of passing into Tamburello.

Niall

[Mirko Pavlovic]

You're right there, Niall. Imola without Variante Alta and the final chicane would be a much more entertaining circuit than the we have right now.

[Ali_G]

But just imagine Imola without any chicanes. A drivers dream.

Another circuit which would be great without chicanes would be imola.

Just imagine the speeds.

Niall

[senninha]

Remove Dino and Enzo Ferrari circuit totally!

simply ...

[Mirko Pavlovic]

Senninha, Imola sans the chicanes is amazing. With the chicanes it's just another Hungaroring.

[Mirko Pavlovic]

Just noticed I'm no longer a junior member. Pretty cool

[senninha]

Originally posted by Mirko Pavlovic
Senninha, Imola sans the chicanes is amazing. With the chicanes it's just another Hungaroring.

Agree. I still remember the first race there. Piquet won and Villeneuve had a big crash in 80.

But the track is narrow and i don't like this circuit for SOME reasons... (87/89/94, specially).

[Ali_G]

Yes, but from i remember before 95 passing was easy.

I couldn't imagine the speed of the circuit pre chicanes though.

Niall

[Zeus]

Sorry, I think Imola is too fast, with too little run off. It should be removed from the calander, in favor of Mugello.

Rivizza and Aqua Minerali are beautiful, but the rest of the track is chicaine, straight, chicaine, straight.

[Ali_G]

Zeus: no way. Compared to 10 years ago F1 is unbelievabley safe.

If we lose Imola what's next. Spa ?

Remove Tamburello Chicane and Villenueve.

Tamburello is not that dangerous. If is was banked or made straighter it would be fine.

And as others have said. Its a tradgedy that Senna's legacy is a chicane.

And leaving Imola would be like the FIA giving p. For the sake of the memory of Senna. F1 must not leave Imola.

Niall

[Dan_G]

Allow me to offer a new idea...

Why not get rid of the chicane at Tamburello and make it a tighter left turn (perhaps something taken in 3rd gear). Straighten out the front straight a bit on the approach to Tamburello to make it easier to take an over taking line into the corner. Make the turn right about at the same point where the chicane entrance is now, and move the straight up to Villeneuve inside it's present course by a bit.

That would improve things in a few ways...

1. It would make Tamburello a turn requiring more braking and a straighter approach to the braking zone to promote passing there.

2. With the more direct straight from Tamburello to Villeneuve, you would be able to increasse the run-off room outside Tamburello.

3. The shorter Tamburello would mean a longer straight from Tamburello to Villeneuve, for the cars to get a bit more speed and requiring more braking for villeneuve.

4. The more direct route of the straight from Tamburello to Villeneuve would mean that the first part of Villeneuve would be tighter. That, combined with the faster straight, would mean more braking for Villeneuve and better overtaking oppurtunities.

The nice thing about these changes it that it would increase the run-off area at these corners, while still slowing the cars (per Max's desires), promote better racing, and fit within the current track's alotted land (since we know they have no room to expand beyond the current track area).

[917k]

I loved the old Imola but I don't think we would even have f1 in Italy if there was another death.

So,better imasculated,than nothing at all.

[DEVO]

What corner did JPM pass Truli on? What a pass! I think it was on one of the chicanes that Ali wants removed. I agree that they should do something about those chicanes but a pass can be done.

[Xodiac]

Everyone has a point. Tamburello can't be restored because there is no run-off area. Directly behind it is a street or a river I think. What they might consider is reprofiling it like they did to the Curva Grande at Monza. There they kept the radius of the curve the same, but moved it back some creating more runoff area.

I am a purist. If it was up to me all the tracks would be at their fastest. The problem with the Variante Alta is I think the car can get light there as it is the crest of a hill? The best run by far is now Tosa through to the Alta chicane.

I don't have a problem with the Variante Bassa as there is inevitably a chicane just before the start/finish straight at almost every track.

I also do not like Villeneuve either. it ruins what passing there could be. I don't really know what could be done with this corner. Every track has an identifying corner, and at Imola it will always be Tamburello. So that is where the changes should happen.

They won't.

[Ali_G]

DEVO: That was tamburello.

Before 95 Tamberello was a glorius, very high speed corner, like 130R.

Villeneuve was a slight turn before Tosa. (Was it even named as a corner ?)

But after 94 The Tamburello chicane was installed to slow down Tamburello. Villeneuve was installed to slow down the cars going into Tosa where Ratzenburger died.

Dan: Tamburello needs to be brought back and banked so it would be easy to take. Get rid of Villeneuve and there would be plenty of passing going into Tosa.

As I see it, F1 is a dangerous sport. The driver would like to see the Circuit back to its glory days. So why not. The chances of another death with today's cars s vertually nil.

Niall

[Mila]

Ali_G, I think that we're forgetting something about the old Tamburello--it wasn't a challenge for the drivers. in this respect, it pales to Suzuka's 130R.

I tend to find Dan_G's suggestion appealing. in order to make it a challenging corner--with decent run-off--my guess is that they would have to do some mighty reconfiguring along the inside of the track in order to move the apex back, away from the outside retaining wall, and to allow the drivers vision while entering the corner.

whit, I believe that your idea was actually applied at Magny-Cour. take a good look at outside wall along the straight leading to the Adelaide hairpin. you can see what I think is evidence that they had initially optioned for some very modest run-off as the straight bends slightly to the right. someone was smart enough to see that this was insufficient, and thus a metal guardrail was erected in front of the run-off area. for me, your idea seems practical if we wish for the old Tamburello; but my thinking, like Dan_G's, is that it could potentially become something better.

one way or another the current Imola track is absolute garbage. it has one--ONE--very good corner--Piratella (which, by the way, is singularly dangerous, given the lack of run-off). Rivazza is decent; and the (much-improved) Aqua Minerale is something of a technical test.

it doesn't deserve GP cars.