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McLaren-Honda MP4-30 (New Era)


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#51 P0inters

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 15:31

How is everyone so optimistic about this ? I'm not really expecting much this season to be honest. All the other engine manufactures have a season's worth of driving. Honda have next to none. I expect the engine to be less reliable than the others and I'd be delighted if it was on par with the Renault and Ferrari engine. Nevertheless , I'll be delighted if we are .5 off at the start of the season and I still expect this partnership to be very successful in 2-3 years time.  :D



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#52 CHIUNDA

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 15:31

Most of the engine making will be adopting the Mercedes layout and whatever is known about the engine so it makes sense for Honda to do the same. I wouldn't over estimate McLarens access to the Mercedes engine unit and its metrics (while they will have performance data I doubt they have any of the internal metrics) and even if they did - they would get into a pile of trouble if they were to hand it over to Honda.


True about Honda not having access to to the internals.

What I am thinking their design philosophy would have been is to mirror the layout because of its advantageous aerodynamic benefits and then work backwards to fix the internals without risking IP conflicts with Mercedes.

#53 Christophe77

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 17:05

Livery wise I'm betting my money on a return to red/white. Fits nicely with Honda, is widely regarded as being Mclaren legacy racing colors, and also fits nicely with the Mclaren look&feel:

 

http://theformula1.w...aren_logo_2.jpg

 

And, if they returned to their older logo, they might even pull of a copy of the Marlboro livery: see the resemblance?

http://wallpho.com/9...go-id-50945.htm

 

 

Only problem would be a title sponsor. Red/white is not compatible with everything. Fe Movistar colours



#54 HPT

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 17:26

How is everyone so optimistic about this ? I'm not really expecting much this season to be honest. All the other engine manufactures have a season's worth of driving. Honda have next to none. I expect the engine to be less reliable than the others and I'd be delighted if it was on par with the Renault and Ferrari engine. Nevertheless , I'll be delighted if we are .5 off at the start of the season and I still expect this partnership to be very successful in 2-3 years time.  :D

 

While I'm not optimistic enough to think Honda will match Merc (although I am hoping), they did have an extra 12 months of development time with targets to aim for. Mercedes engine was good out of the box and if Honda could match what Merc had at the beginning of this year, then that will be quite a feat. And it's not undoable as Merc has already done it.



#55 MirNyet

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 21:06

True about Honda not having access to to the internals.

What I am thinking their design philosophy would have been is to mirror the layout because of its advantageous aerodynamic benefits and then work backwards to fix the internals without risking IP conflicts with Mercedes.

 

McLaren would have been making demands on layout for just that reason, also Honda have a lot of knowledge on how to put an engine together - they know what they're doing regardless of what Mercedes have already done - it could be that Honda bring some new tricks to the table.



#56 onewingedangel

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 23:26

Are McLaren still using the Toyota wind tunnel in Cologne?



#57 ATM

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 23:46

How is everyone so optimistic about this ? 

 

 

Yeah, good point...let's all remember that Newey joined RBR in 2006, and they started winning races only in 2009. Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 (with a lot of staff too) but they begun to be a serious threat only in 1998-1999. Mercedes took the WCC reigning team and it took them 3 years to win again. So, it does take some time for a team to grow into a championship contender...unless they can find the next big gizmo (F-duct, blown diffuser, blown driver's behind, blown whatever) which would bring them 2+ seconds/lap...

 

I said it on another thread too, I would be very happy if the team would to finish 3rd in the standings. With a new engine, and a lot of new personnel, that's a realistic target. 



#58 El_Rápido

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 00:04

Yeah, good point...let's all remember that Newey joined RBR in 2006, and they started winning races only in 2009. Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 (with a lot of staff too) but they begun to be a serious threat only in 1998-1999. Mercedes took the WCC reigning team and it took them 3 years to win again. So, it does take some time for a team to grow into a championship contender...unless they can find the next big gizmo (F-duct, blown diffuser, blown driver's behind, blown whatever) which would bring them 2+ seconds/lap...

 

I said it on another thread too, I would be very happy if the team would to finish 3rd in the standings. With a new engine, and a lot of new personnel, that's a realistic target. 

.

Neither Newey nor Schumacher had one of the largest car/motorcycle manufacturers at their disposal (and all the data that comes with it). 

 

I suspect McLaren are going to hit the ground running.


Edited by El_Rápido, 15 December 2014 - 00:05.


#59 ATM

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 05:25

Well, let's take then Honda's most recent example then. Acquired BAR in 2005, raced under the Honda full-fledged name since 2006, retired in 2008 (result, one odd win and a lot of flunked cars), and only their 2009 chassis proved to be a winning one. Ad that one was with a Mercedes engine; we'll never know whether the 2009 Honda engine would have been good enough to secure the title had it been run.

 

And even if their engine will be beating Mercedes silly (which, I somehow doubt), their manufacturer's global data does not refer to making a winning F1 chassis. Not at 2014 F1 level, anyway. 2009? eh, maybe they can use some of it,  but most of it it's  prehistoric data already. 

 

 

Again, stranger things have happened -  so maybe they will actually hit the ground running. But going by history, most of the examples show that a new project won't blow everybody away from the start. 


Edited by ATM, 15 December 2014 - 05:26.


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#60 femi

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 06:11

Even Alonso insisted he is not regarding McLaren as a one-year project, admitting it may take longer for McLaren-Honda to reach its goals.

"This first season will be learning," he is quoted by EFE news agency, "as we have not seen a super-competitive McLaren in the last two or three years.

"We hope to have a good winter and then I will be happy if we can start to be competitive, we learn things, we go on the podium and win some races."


http://www.motorspor...ing-villeneuve/

#61 Timstr11

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 08:07

Are McLaren still using the Toyota wind tunnel in Cologne?

Given that their current Windtunnel is outdated and that next year teams can only use 1 nominated windtunnel, I think they will use the TMG one exclusively.

#62 WitnessX

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 08:41

Are McLaren still using the Toyota wind tunnel in Cologne?

They have rekindled there expansion plans at MTC:

 

http://www.getsurrey...e-anger-8283305

 

HCPS trustee Ron Neale has questioned why the new wind tunnel cannot be at the site across the road. “Their planning statements say their current wind tunnel is obsolete so they are regularly transporting staff and equipment to a bespoke facility in Cologne,” he said.



#63 Hyatt

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 08:57

 

HCPS trustee Ron Neale has questioned why the new wind tunnel cannot be at the site across the road. “Their planning statements say their current wind tunnel is obsolete so they are regularly transporting staff and equipment to a bespoke facility in Cologne,” he said.

 

so their impressive paragon facility is already outdated?  :drunk:



#64 Dalton007

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 09:21

Looks like it takes 3 years for the partnerships to come to fruition, will Alonso wait that long?



#65 Brod

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 10:46

Yeah, good point...let's all remember that Newey joined RBR in 2006, and they started winning races only in 2009.

 

RB started winning not only because of Newey, but also because of new regulations. I'm not confident that RBR would've been successful without them. 

If Alonso will have a year like Schumacher in 1996 he will be very happy. Ferrari and Schumacher needed time to do the last step, but they already started at a high level together. 



#66 kosmos

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 10:52

Looks like it takes 3 years for the partnerships to come to fruition, will Alonso wait that long?

 

He already said that this is a long term project, the only thing McLaren need to do is improve race by race, year by year and he will be happy.



#67 adumbo

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 10:54

Looks like it takes 3 years for the partnerships to come to fruition, will Alonso wait that long?


If there is an upward trend of development, im sure he will be fired up every season. With ferrari even a regular fan can see no upward trend and im pretty sure alonso has a clearer picture on the inside.

#68 Qel

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 11:11

Never really been a fan of Alonso but surprisingly finding myself more interested in McLaren next season with the more interesting driver lineup and Honda returning. Not expecting much but hopefully the engine will be good and the car at least decent enough to challenge for podiums or the occasional win. Really hope we get a more interesting livery though, the black/chrome is so boring...


Edited by Qel, 15 December 2014 - 11:12.


#69 StudMuffin

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 11:32

I guess the car will be really good. Prodromou would have been working on it for a long time. Plus the engine should be good. Alonso mentioned he went to the factory in Japan and liked what he saw. He wouldn't change teams for nothing.

I thought there were 25million reasons why Alonso changed teams :lol:



#70 hittheapex

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 11:55

I expect McLaren to get at least a victory after a 2 year drought but I would be surprised if they challenge for the title in 2015. It would be a nice surprise though.



#71 Ncedi

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 14:08

I expect McLaren to get at least a victory after a 2 year drought but I would be surprised if they challenge for the title in 2015. It would be a nice surprise though.

 

I think fighting for the podium on a regular basis will be a success next year, victories and title challenges from there...



#72 topical

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 16:59

Alonso will be happy as long as McLaren are in front of Ferrari - that already will justify the decision, with potential for further development.

Regular podiums will have to be considered a success, anything above that is a bonus.



#73 Hollow

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 17:12

Honda is here to win! Don't be fooled by the small talk, the samurais are thirsty!  No-one is safe, not even Mercedes.



#74 FullWets

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 17:37

Honda was very intelligent waiting to see which concept works and which are a dead-end street. They know what they have to achieve, and in one way or the other they must have gained access to relevant technical information from Mercedes, even with all precautions that could have been taken there is simply no way you can hide it to hundreds of information-hungry engineers. Even been optimistic, I cannot imagine Honda investing hundreds of millions and waiting one extra year only to fall short, that would really be incredible



#75 Nigol

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 17:50

Haha for a moment I thought McLaren will use New Era caps now.  :rotfl:



#76 kevinracefan

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 17:50

all he saw were huge piles of YEN when he visited the factory



#77 DinocoBlue

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 17:57

Haha for a moment I thought McLaren will use New Era caps now.  :rotfl:

Ughhh don't give 'em ideas! I don't know what'd be worse; McLaren New Era fashion caps in blue, yellow or Ferrari red, or those hideous flat billed ones (like Alonso and Hamilton have both worn in the past).



#78 Lemans

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 18:22

Ughhh don't give 'em ideas! I don't know what'd be worse; McLaren New Era fashion caps in blue, yellow or Ferrari red, or those hideous flat billed ones (like Alonso and Hamilton have both worn in the past).

 

How dare you! Are you trying to say this looks idiotic? Clearly you don't have any style!

 

Lewis_Hamilton_shades_and_cap.jpg



#79 DinocoBlue

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 19:17

How dare you! Are you trying to say this looks idiotic? Clearly you don't have any style!

 

 

Actually that one isn't too bad, there's a bit of curve in the bill. Certainty not calling it idiotic. Just not my style of hat.

 

Moving on...

I think fighting for the podium on a regular basis will be a success next year, victories and title challenges from there...

Agreed, although it'd be great if they were back at the front full time again, but I'd settle for podiums and victories.

 

I know its to early to tell, but it should be a great season. Lewis and Nico surely have the momentum, and do Williams.. imagine if McLaren could join them. But I won't get my hopes up until the Winter tests.


Edited by DinocoBlue, 15 December 2014 - 20:17.


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#80 10e10

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 23:01

Actually that one isn't too bad, there's a bit of curve in the bill. Certainty not calling it idiotic. Just not my style of hat.

 

Moving on...

Agreed, although it'd be great if they were back at the front full time again, but I'd settle for podiums and victories.

 

I know its to early to tell, but it should be a great season. Lewis and Nico surely have the momentum, and do Williams.. imagine if McLaren could join them. But I won't get my hopes up until the Winter tests.

 

I won't even if the winter tests are any good. This year McLaren's first winter tests weren't half bad, but the disappointment came soon after. 



#81 BillBald

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 23:27

I won't even if the winter tests are any good. This year McLaren's first winter tests weren't half bad, but the disappointment came soon after. 

 

Bahrain isn't a track which highlights a lack of downforce, but we did get a clue when Ricciardo drove around Jenson in turn 11.

 

Is it Jerez and Bahrain again this year?



#82 Exb

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 23:42

Is it Jerez and Bahrain again this year?


No - Jerez and Barcelona (x2) :)

#83 ATM

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:26

I won't even if the winter tests are any good. This year McLaren's first winter tests weren't half bad, but the disappointment came soon after. 

 

Aaaaand let's not forget the classical 2013 testing..."oh, wow, look, our car is so fast...sh!t, we built the suspension upside down"... :clap:



#84 RedOne

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:36

I haven't been more excited for a season since 2010 when Alonso joined Ferrari. Infact I'm even more excited now that he is back at McLaren.

Edited by RedOne, 16 December 2014 - 01:37.


#85 hittheapex

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 02:11

While we're on the subject of caps and style:

Nigel-Mansell-Cap.jpg



#86 RedOne

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 02:27

While we're on the subject of caps and style:
Nigel-Mansell-Cap.jpg


article-0-1B6A6082000005DC-78_634x452.jp

#87 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 02:45

I don't think we'll see either McLaren driver fighting for the 2015 title but it's possible. Just look back at 2012 with Fernando and Clifford. I think fighting for podiums in 2015 is a very good starting point.

I do expect McLaren to be stronger than most ppl think. With the extra time Honda had to develop their engine, I think it's possible for them to have the 2nd best PU by the end of 2015 and I fully expect them to challenge for the 2016 WCC/WDC.

#88 EarnardBeccelstone

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 02:48

Gut feeling:

 

Engine will be good

Chassis will be good

Integration of the two and reliability will be poor

Race strategy will be mixed

 

I'm forecasting 4th in the CC for 2015, with a possibility of winning it in 2016

 

Unless the car is a clear winner, I think Button will probably retire at the end of 2015, making way for Magnussen.



#89 keshav

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 05:03

Gut feeling:

 

Engine will be good

Chassis will be good

Integration of the two and reliability will be poor

Race strategy will be mixed

 

I'm forecasting 4th in the CC for 2015, with a possibility of winning it in 2016

 

Unless the car is a clear winner, I think Button will probably retire at the end of 2015, making way for Magnussen.

Mercedes and Red Bull might be ahead. Who will be the 3rd team? Williams or Ferrari? Certainly 3rd is possible for them. They should be happy with that.



#90 aguri

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 06:41

I reckon McLaren will win a race next year, but not until late in the season. 

 

3rd in the CC. Fast in patches but no consistency.

 

Expect a lot of Button and Alonso nursing the car home whilst stuck in 4th gear, with shagged tyres and an overheated engine.



#91 femi

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 07:01

article-0-1B6A6082000005DC-78_634x452.jp

I prefer her's

#92 purpleturtle

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 11:42

Just to add a little bit of info about the new McLaren Wind Tunnel: 

 

McLaren have resubmitted plans to build "the world's most advanced aerodynamic research facility" among offices and meeting places for McLaren Applied Technology. The building would sit in between the McLaren Technology Centre and the McLaren Production Centre. The building of the McLaren Wind Tunnel is "urgent" to "deliver ongoing success of McLaren Racing, Automotive and Applied Technology"

I dug up a summary of the plans here: http://caps.woking.g... ... 303102.pdf
And some maps of the plans:
http://caps.woking.g... ... 303027.pdf
http://caps.woking.g... ... 303023.pdf



#93 ZuTiMa

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 12:35

Livery wise I am expecting a solid stripe of McLaren corporate orange. Traditionally engine suppliers don't have much influence on livery. But the rest of the body being white would suit both McLaren and Honda nicely I think. If Movistar are sponsoring then an inspired dash of blue would make an appealingly colourful MP4-30.

 

I would love to see the rendering of the above livery .... McLaren Corporate Orange, White and a bit of Movistar Blue! .... who is good at photoshop? lol



#94 Clatter

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 13:48

Honda was very intelligent waiting to see which concept works and which are a dead-end street. They know what they have to achieve, and in one way or the other they must have gained access to relevant technical information from Mercedes, even with all precautions that could have been taken there is simply no way you can hide it to hundreds of information-hungry engineers. Even been optimistic, I cannot imagine Honda investing hundreds of millions and waiting one extra year only to fall short, that would really be incredible

Are you suggesting that they have access to the engine details of all the manufacturers to be able to decide what worked and what didn't?



#95 bogi

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 13:50

McLaren_P1_GTR_Design_Concept_2014_MPP29

9-mclaren-p1-gtr-front.jpg

6-mclaren-p1-gtr-rear-front.jpg

I think we have a winner livery.

 

Source F1Technical forum.



#96 CHIUNDA

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 18:06

McLaren would have been making demands on layout for just that reason, also Honda have a lot of knowledge on how to put an engine together - they know what they're doing regardless of what Mercedes have already done - it could be that Honda bring some new tricks to the table.

 

Which would be refreshing and totally exciting for very competitive 2015 and 2016 seasons - although it is hard to imagine another engine being more dominant than the already very dominant Mercedes PU.



#97 DinocoBlue

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 18:43

McLaren_P1_GTR_Design_Concept_2014_MPP29

 

 

I think we have a winner livery.

 

Source F1Technical forum.

Ron....

Make. It. Happen.



#98 igoru

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 18:46

Judging by engine sound Honda would have been nbr 1 in 2015   ;)



#99 mclarensmps

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 20:05

That doesn't look that great... The livery makes it look like a toy. Well, I guess it is a toy, but still :p



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#100 Hollow

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 20:36

This myth about the Mercedes engine is getting tiresome. It's unbeatable, Honda can only hope to match it....blah, blah, blah. Long winter coming.

 

* That livery sucks.