1867 replies to this topic

[LORDBYRON]

Haas will officially get their operations with Dallara on their 2016 challenger and wind tunnel test will be coming later.

 

so bang goes the theory that Marussia could use there old facility as they are doing work in there on the car to

 

http://www.motorspor...n-2016-haas-car

Edited by LORDBYRON, 24 January 2015 - 16:15.

[Newbrray]

Am wondering who Haas will go for regards to drivers. quite a few experienced guys out there with no drives but he could also opt for pay drivers. will be interesting to see how he goes

[KnucklesAgain]

Interesting info, but can the mods please fix the atrocious thread title?

[Rasputin]

Intriguing this, given that Gene Haas is serious, which I still very much doubt; Will those cars be designed in Italy, built in the US and raced from base in UK?

[northell]

Didn't dallara design cars for BAR team years ago?

[Timstr11]

Haas will officially get their operations with Dallara on their 2016 challenger and wind tunnel test will be coming later.

 

so bang goes the theory that Marussia could use there old facility as they are doing work in there on the car to

 

http://www.motorspor...n-2016-haas-car

 

From what I understand, Dallara will produce the wind tunnel model to be used in the NC Windshear wind tunnel and later on produce the monocoque.

So the design of the model/car is done in Kannapolis, NC. Who are behind the design (not production) of the first Haas car? To be honest, I find that a far more interesting question than a Marussia building to be used as a logistics operation.

 

Edit:

 

The tunnel model will be produced in Kanapolis as well.

This is what Haas said in the latest issue of F1 Racing mag. when asked what they will be doing themsleves.

 

Initially we will be responsible for CFD and design work, but we’ll use sub-contractors to build the frst chassis. We’ve got facilities at the factory in Kannapolis, North Carolina, to manufacture parts, but, at the moment, we will just make scale model parts for the windtunnel. Once we know what we’re doing, we’ll start doing more of the engineering in Kannapolis.

Edited by Timstr11, 24 January 2015 - 18:18.

[Myrvold]

Didn't dallara design cars for BAR team years ago?

Reynard ;)

[LORDBYRON]

Interesting info, but can the mods please fix the atrocious thread title?

Yes that would be good as I cant edit the title 

[LORDBYRON]

Intriguing this, given that Gene Haas is serious, which I still very much doubt; Will those cars be designed in Italy, built in the US and raced from base in UK?

Lets hope the don't modify the HRT designs 

[maverick69]

Hmmmmm. Dallara. Thier 91 car was a little cracker - but the rest have been average at best. Geoff Willis had to bolt a two year old Brawn front wing on to the HRT to make it turn in.

Great mass manufacturer of single seaters...... But they're yet to show that they can be effective in F1.

Then again...... If you go to the pound shop - then don't expect to walk away with any more than a pack of Haribo and some toenail clippers.

Edited by maverick69, 24 January 2015 - 18:32.

[Rasputin]

@ Timstr11;

 

But if the design of the model/car will be done in Kannapolis NC, does the Haas organization have anyone with experience remotely close to designing a modern single-seater from scratch?

[loki]

@ Timstr11;

 

But if the design of the model/car will be done in Kannapolis NC, does the Haas organization have anyone with experience remotely close to designing a modern single-seater from scratch?

Yes.  Ferrari.  As stated in another thread, a Dallara manufactured, Haas chassis with support from Ferrari.  The requirement for the constructor is to own the IP.  You can use a subcontractor to create it you just have to own it.

[loki]

Lets hope the don't modify the HRT designs 

This has been hashed to death here as well, the HRT designs were never finished.  HRT ran out of money and the project was stopped with only a handful of parts.  In this case Dallara is the manufacturer not the designer.

[Timstr11]

@ Timstr11;

 

But if the design of the model/car will be done in Kannapolis NC, does the Haas organization have anyone with experience remotely close to designing a modern single-seater from scratch?

 

I think the collaboration with Ferrari goes much further than just sourcing of power unit and gearbox.  

For example, Mclaren were providing consultancy services to Marussia with McLaren employees actually working at Marussia.

I think Haas will have the same  type relationship with Ferrari.

[Timstr11]

Yes.  Ferrari.  As stated in another thread, a Dallara manufactured, Haas chassis with support from Ferrari.  The requirement for the constructor is to own the IP.  You can use a subcontractor to create it you just have to own it.

 

Yes, that's my understanding as well.

[loki]

I think the collaboration with Ferrari goes much further than just sourcing of power unit and gearbox.  

For example, Mclaren were providing consultancy services to Marussia with McLaren employees actually working at Marussia.

I think Haas will have the same  type relationship with Ferrari.

In fact according to Steiner they do have that sort of relationship.  From http://www.motorspor...f1-s-next-move/

 

We’re working quite closely with Ferrari. We have to. They have the knowledge and we want to build our knowledge up. They are a good partner.

 

[Rasputin]

Good Lord, Kannapolis, Dallara, Ferrari and what is left of Marussia, some assembly I must say? 

Edited by Rasputin, 24 January 2015 - 19:47.

[Wes350]

Does anyone know what sort of testing restrictions that they may be under?

 

Are they operating under the same CFD/wind tunnel/road testing, restrictions that everyone else is now on...

 

Or do those things come into play when they officially apply for 2016 entry?

 

Is there a way Haas can take advantage of a year of unlimited testing? And make a car that won't be dead last first run out of the gate?

 

Or is he stuck hoping Ferrari helps him enough that his car won't be another HRT special...

 

I'm hoping Hass can be the American equivalent of Stewart GP...

Edited by Wes350, 24 January 2015 - 20:03.

[InSearchOfThe]

Great news. 

 

Haas knows what he's doing, and what he doesn't know he'll learn as he goes.

 

This is what I love about these fourms, experts that know how other people should spend their money and do things. A million laughs.

 

He's got 3 years to score more than 1 point. It will take time. And I can wait.

[Ali_G]

Reynard ;)

Infamously Adrian Reynard stated before BAR's first race, that every a Reynard chassis won every first race they entered in various series and to expect something big at Aus 1999.

[stewie]

I'm sure if you actually pay dallara they can build a decent f1 car. After all, their gp2 car is as fast as the back of the f1 pack.

[wonk123]

Does anyone know what sort of testing restrictions that they may be under?

 

Are they operating under the same CFD/wind tunnel/road testing, restrictions that everyone else is now on...

 

Or do those things come into play when they officially apply for 2016 entry?

 

Is there a way Haas can take advantage of a year of unlimited testing? And make a car that won't be dead last first run out of the gate?

...

I wondered this last year when they decided to put off their entry until 2016. After all, windshear is a 100% tunnel with a rolling road. Could they test as much as they want until Feb 2016?

[turssi]

Yeah, I bet it will be interesting if they get their best talent to work and pay tô see the results from start to finish.

[loki]

Does anyone know what sort of testing restrictions that they may be under?

 

Are they operating under the same CFD/wind tunnel/road testing, restrictions that everyone else is now on...

 

Or do those things come into play when they officially apply for 2016 entry?

 

Is there a way Haas can take advantage of a year of unlimited testing? And make a car that won't be dead last first run out of the gate?

 

Or is he stuck hoping Ferrari helps him enough that his car won't be another HRT special...

 

I'm hoping Hass can be the American equivalent of Stewart GP...

According to Steiner they aren't interested in testing prior to the 2016 launch.  He feels it will take away from designing the car.  Much of what used to be gathered only during testing can now be gotten in CFD.  The design tools are readily available in Concord, Corvid CFD, Windshear.  The lynch pin is going to be the who it is inside Haas on the design.  I'm wondering if it may be some young new engineer that Ferrari helped pick to groom for the job.  Much in the way Minardi used to do that with not only drivers but mechanics and engineers as well.

 

http://www.motorspor...f1-s-next-move/

 

“We’re not having a car before everyone else,” Steiner said. “We don’t want to. It doesn’t make sense. You build a car which is obsolete before you finish it. You try to build a car as late as possible to get in as much of development beforehand.

“If we build a car just for testing, we spend a lot of money and time but it’s worth nothing because we could be developing at the same time. So we’ll be testing in January ’16 like everyone else.”

 

[Brazzers]

Dallara's track record is about as good as Emile Heskey's scoring record. 

[chipmcdonald]

I think one should not underestimate Dallara.

 

Because full-scale wind tunnel development today, this year, is no doubt drastically, fundamentally faster/different than it was maybe even just a year ago.  With a small array of off the shelf 3D printers they can mock up prototypes of wings in a few hours.  They almost certainly would be using 3D printing for such things this year, and I would think that would possibly yield a 10-fold better time factor and probably the same from a finance side of hiring model builders.  They could start off 3D printing a clone of the Mercedes chassis just as a baseline and at least be only a year behind, whereas previously spending the time and money to construct a clone would probably fall under a "big risk" column. 

[Nathan]

Was buying the Marussia chassis for correlation purposes?  Any mention of where Haas is with their simulator?

[loki]

I think one should not underestimate Dallara.

 

Because full-scale wind tunnel development today, this year, is no doubt drastically, fundamentally faster/different than it was maybe even just a year ago.  With a small array of off the shelf 3D printers they can mock up prototypes of wings in a few hours.  They almost certainly would be using 3D printing for such things this year, and I would think that would possibly yield a 10-fold better time factor and probably the same from a finance side of hiring model builders.  They could start off 3D printing a clone of the Mercedes chassis just as a baseline and at least be only a year behind, whereas previously spending the time and money to construct a clone would probably fall under a "big risk" column. 

The current crop of desktop 3D printers aren't suitable for such work.  The technology is about 30 years old at this point and the desktop models use that technology.   The process is also painstakingly slow.  It would take hours or days to print a scale model of a wing.  That development is done with CFD then validated with hadmade CF scale models.  There are other additive manufacturing processes that can use material other than plastics but for this app CFD and scale models are the best bet.

[loki]

Was buying the Marussia chassis for correlation purposes?  Any mention of where Haas is with their simulator?

They didn't buy the chassis or the IP.  That was a rumor in the press that was debunked by Steiner.    All they bought was the building and Marussia didn't own that, a Russian connected to the team did.  They may buy some test equipment tooling but that's it.

 

They won't be ready for a sim for several months.  Contrary to what the thread title says there is no design for the car at this time and the process has not yet started according to Steiner.  The design isn't coming from Dallara, they are the manufacturing subcontractor.  They're probably a good 6-9 months away from being able to use a sim.  A sim is relatively easy to get, you just need to cut a check and know what the lead time is for the installation.

[Timstr11]

They didn't buy the chassis or the IP.  That was a rumor in the press that was debunked by Steiner.    All they bought was the building and Marussia didn't own that, a Russian connected to the team did.  They may buy some test equipment tooling but that's it.

 

They won't be ready for a sim for several months.  Contrary to what the thread title says there is no design for the car at this time and the process has not yet started according to Steiner.  The design isn't coming from Dallara, they are the manufacturing subcontractor.  They're probably a good 6-9 months away from being able to use a sim.  A sim is relatively easy to get, you just need to cut a check and know what the lead time is for the installation.

 

Not unlikely they will make use of the Ferrari sim like Marussia made use of Mclaren's sim.

[Baddoer]

Surely they will be using glorious F110 concept as a base?

[Rasputin]

In all honesty, I find it most entertaining that people still believe that Gene Haas is serious about this, when he's just a marketing genius.

 

Just consider all the attention he got from that tiny sticker on the F14T;

 

http://images.thecar...100471968_m.jpg

Edited by Rasputin, 26 January 2015 - 18:30.

[Widefoot2]

In all honesty, I find it most entertaining that people still believe that Gene Haas is serious about this, when he's just a marketing genius.

 

Just consider all the attention he got from that tiny sticker on the F14T;

 

http://images.thecar...100471968_m.jpg

 

Yes, Gene Haas is definitely doing the F1 team on a shoe string - that new 125,000 square foot (11,613 square meter) building that was recently finished in North Carolina just for the F1 team must have cost no more than twenty bucks, and the Marussia facility even less.  And hiring Dallara for car construction - bah, everyone knows they work for free, right?  And the Ferrari sponsorship, why that must have been a few lira, nothing more.  Thanks for clarifying all this, its must be of great comfort to the (billionaire) Mr. Haas that such astute minds appreciate how good he is at value for money.

Edited by Widefoot2, 26 January 2015 - 20:39.

[loki]

Yes, Gene Haas is definitely doing the F1 team on a shoe string - that new 125,000 square foot (11,613 square meter) building that was recently finished in North Carolina just for the F1 team must have cost no more than twenty bucks, and the Marussia facility even less.  And hiring Dallara for car construction - bah, everyone knows they work for free, right?  And the Ferrari sponsorship, why that must have been a few lira, nothing more.  Thanks for clarifying all this, its must be of great comfort to the (billionaire) Mr. Haas that such astute minds appreciate how good he is at value for money.

 

I suppose if one is HRT then Dallara will work for free....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Widefoot2]

I suppose if one is HRT then Dallara will work for free....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly... 

Edited by Widefoot2, 26 January 2015 - 21:40.

[teejay]

Dallara inspires me with little confidence.

 

Hope they prove me wrong

[FPV GTHO]

The HRT Dallara was have baked at the start of the year, had no updates through the year yet the team still found speed out of it through the year. I wouldn't rule out a properly prepared Dallara.

[loki]

Dallara inspires me with little confidence.

 

Hope they prove me wrong

Pay attention folks...

 

Dallara isn't designing the the car.  They are the fabricators.  They'll lay up and form whatever design is given to them.

[Timstr11]

It strikes me that many here have trouble distinguishing between design and manufacture.

 

I'm not saying there's no link, because design choices will depend on the capability to manufacture structures like the tub and wishbones, which are light but strong enough.

I have no idea if Dallara's capabilities in the area of carbon structures is on the level of front running F1 teams. Likely not. There certainly is difference between teams in F1 to begin with.

 

But in terms of designing the aerodynamic shapes, designing the installation of the PU, designing the cooling, designing the suspension etc. that will be in the hands of Haas in Kannaplois, NC.

Edited by Timstr11, 27 January 2015 - 10:45.

[BRG]

 

I have no idea if Dallara's capabilities in the area of carbon structures is on the level of front running F1 teams. Likely not. There certainly is difference between teams in F1 to begin with.

I'd say that Dallara are better than any F1 team at that.  After all, they make far more cars than the entire F1 grid put together so it would be odd if they weren't more accomplished at working with carbon structures.  As others have said, it is the design that matters - if that is good, then Dallara will do their bit fine.

[Imateria]

I'd say that Dallara are better than any F1 team at that.  After all, they make far more cars than the entire F1 grid put together so it would be odd if they weren't more accomplished at working with carbon structures.  As others have said, it is the design that matters - if that is good, then Dallara will do their bit fine.

I don't know. For the most part I agree with you but they have no experience of doing something fancy like Red Bull's carbon layering techniques to produce flexy wings. Still, if Haas are trying their hand at flexi wings and trick carbon layering right off the bat then I'd be more worried about them running before they can walk.

[Timstr11]

I don't know. For the most part I agree with you but they have no experience of doing something fancy like Red Bull's carbon layering techniques to produce flexy wings. Still, if Haas are trying their hand at flexi wings and trick carbon layering right off the bat then I'd be more worried about them running before they can walk.

 

 

 

I'd say that Dallara are better than any F1 team at that.  After all, they make far more cars than the entire F1 grid put together so it would be odd if they weren't more accomplished at working with carbon structures.  As others have said, it is the design that matters - if that is good, then Dallara will do their bit fine.

 

I'm one of those who remarked that as far as design goes, it will be in the hands of Haas.

However, there definitely is a link with the capabilities of Dallara when it comes to structural design and I do doubt Dallara is on the level of front running teams.

@Imateria provides a good example of lay-up techniques that leverage flex within the constraints of the rules. I doubt Dallara has developed much expertise in those areas as they mostly design for spec series and they're not pushed to develop those competencies. 

Another example is the Mercedes nose box which many teams say is hard to achieve in terms of structural strength combine with a short length.

Edited by Timstr11, 27 January 2015 - 13:12.

[BRG]

I don't know. For the most part I agree with you but they have no experience of doing something fancy like Red Bull's carbon layering techniques to produce flexy wings. Still, if Haas are trying their hand at flexi wings and trick carbon layering right off the bat then I'd be more worried about them running before they can walk.

Flexy wings? I agree that Dallara probably don't have Red Bull's expertise in cheating, but that isn't a bad thing.

[Imateria]

Red Bull aren't the only team with flexy wing tech, they just push the limits of it within the rules more than most. For a first car though it probably wont matter as they're looking to get on the grid in a respectable manner and not reinvent the wheel.

[RA2]

I would say Dallara has very little it can contribute to the CF layup of the monocoque.

 

For years they have been doing cars for spec racing series where in the demands of weight saving is not an issue. F1 teams year on year try to save a few grams on the monocoque, wings etc that they have tried a lot of things, know what works and what does not work.

 

If an avg weight of the mid and tail enders monocoque weighs in at 35 kgs Dallara will certainly have trouble getting there.

 

Yet Haas's priority for first year is learning, Dallara certainly are not going to hinder that by reducing the ballast by a few kgs.

[BRG]

I would say Dallara has very little it can contribute to the CF layup of the monocoque.

 

For years they have been doing cars for spec racing series where in the demands of weight saving is not an issue. F1 teams year on year try to save a few grams on the monocoque, wings etc that they have tried a lot of things, know what works and what does not work.

 

If Dallara have been building big old hefty dogs for F3 for all these years, why haven't they been blown away by competitor constructors?  They have build chassises for WEC as well, which is not spec.  I reckon Dallara have forgotten more about CF working than the F1 teams have ever known.  If they need to build a lightweight moncocque, they will certainly be able to.  The idea that F1 teams are some sort of paragons of ability compared to everyone else is risible.  

[turssi]

Flexy wings? I agree that Dallara probably don't have Red Bull's expertise in cheating, but that isn't a bad thing.

It is a bad thing as in F1 you need to bend the rules (or in this case the wings) if you want to win!

[paulb]

I'd say that Dallara are better than any F1 team at that.  After all, they make far more cars than the entire F1 grid put together so it would be odd if they weren't more accomplished at working with carbon structures.  As others have said, it is the design that matters - if that is good, then Dallara will do their bit fine.

 

If its a simple prime/supplier relationship, Dallara will build what the Haas specification directs them to build.  While being competent in mass production, Dallara should also have a quick turnaround system for fabricating development parts.  Production runs will be small, but they will need to be able to respond to Haas' needs to change parts as development progresses.

[maverick69]

I would argue that Dallara are very much involved with the design and aerodynamics. There are lots of suppliers who will build you a tub or a front wing PDQ..... Many based close to their proposed base.

[Timstr11]

I would argue that Dallara are very much involved with the design and aerodynamics. There are lots of suppliers who will build you a tub or a front wing PDQ..... Many based close to their proposed base.

 

So you don't believe Haas when he says that his own Windshear wind tunnel will be used for design?