44 replies to this topic

[ronsingapore]

Just exactly how many race drivers are there in the world?

 

Let's do a breakdown by:

 

1) Country/region

 

2) Professional (Full-time) or amateur/gentlemen drivers

 

3) Category: Stock-car/touring car/open-wheel/rallying/sprint car

[Ross Stonefeld]

2-3000 depending on what categories you include. There are a lot, a lot, of gentelman racers(and in the junior single seater ranks almost everyone brings money) so you'll have to have a cut-off. So obviously you include Formula 3 drivers. Do you include Formula 4 and Formula Renault or is that too low?

[HaydenFan]

Less than 200 people are paid to race cars in the world. Number might actually be closer to 100 people. 

 

What qualifies someone as a pro driver? Is someone in F1 racing for a team because he bought the seat make him a pro? Because to me, that is the complete definition of a gentleman driver. Just in recent years it went from the wealthy businessmen wanting to race the big cars, to those wealthy businessmen buying their kid a seat in the big cars. 

Edited by HaydenFan, 26 January 2015 - 17:29.

[ronsingapore]

2-3000 depending on what categories you include. There are a lot, a lot, of gentelman racers(and in the junior single seater ranks almost everyone brings money) so you'll have to have a cut-off. So obviously you include Formula 3 drivers. Do you include Formula 4 and Formula Renault or is that too low?

 

I think I would include all the categories, even Formula Renault and Formula Nippon

 

Less than 200 people are paid to race cars in the world. Number might actually be closer to 100 people. 

 

What qualifies someone as a pro driver? Is someone in F1 racing for a team because he bought the seat make him a pro? Because to me, that is the complete definition of a gentleman driver. Just in recent years it went from the wealthy businessmen wanting to race the big cars, to those wealthy businessmen buying their kid a seat in the big cars. 

 

Hmmm. good point here; sometime that somehow did not occurred to me; for me, I would define a Pro driver as someone whom does racing as a full-time job (never mind if he buys seat with the family's money or sponsor money) and an amateur driver as someone whom does racing on a part-time basis; i.e Hollywood actor most of the time and racer on some days.

 

Of course, the above definition can be disputed.

[Jon83]

2845

[DS27]

Which type of license? I am one of probably a couple of thousand in the UK to have a race national A, does that mean i'm classed as an Amateur? (apparently I'm no Gentleman). MSA do licenses for Race, Speed, Rally, Drag Racing, Hill Climbing, Karting, etc, so depends how wide you want to throw the net.

Edited by DS27, 26 January 2015 - 18:06.

[chunder27]

Far more than you would expect are actually competing

 

There are tens of thousands of people doing bike enduros, short oval racing, autograss etc, probably a vast percentage mroe than wasting their money with excessive MSA licence fees.

 

I would expect if you totted up the licences issued by the ORCi, NASA, and a few smaller organisations they would double or triple the ones issued by the MSA.

 

As for full time job, in this country not very many. Having your ride paid for is sponsorship, if you get a wage form that then its your job.  But the industry itself emplys tens of thousands, a far more relevant number

[Risil]

Less than 200 people are paid to race cars in the world. Number might actually be closer to 100 people.

 

Roughly as you like, what proportion of those are stock car racers? I'm untutored in this sort of thing but I sort of assumed you had a better chance making a living in the NASCAR leagues than elsewhere.

 

I also wonder what happens to the figure when you include part-time racers who make the rest of their salary on racing-related activities like test driving, driver coaching and engineering things.

Edited by Risil, 26 January 2015 - 19:01.

[hittheapex]

Perry McCarthy told a recent podcast that he believed there were about 3 million competition licences worldwide.

[Lee Nicolle]

Perry McCarthy told a recent podcast that he believed there were about 3 million competition licences worldwide.

That does seem a little excessive but their is a LOT. Hundreds of thousands of people who RACE cars bikes, trucks etc at the multitude of organisational bodies. . Plus the huge amount again who do simple one car at a time events, hillclimbs, Sprints, motorkhanas , autocross etc etc.

How many proffesional? Tens of thousands though many would never make a living directly from it. But do pro type events in a pro type of standard. Semi Pro? At the thousands of championships in every type of the sport. World wide. 

[ensign14]

However many there are, it's easy to see who is bottom of the list...

 

[ronsingapore]

2845

 

Uhmmm, am i missing something here?....

[Nemo1965]

Interesting topic. 'How many racing drivers' I gather to take: 'How many people in the world get PAID to race a car, either by their team or by their sponsors?'

 

Another interesting question, for me at least: 'How many drivers are there in the world who can drive a F1 car within the 110 percent range of the pole-position time?' I think about 150...

[Rob29]

Sorry-the term 'race driver' certainly does not incude bikes.

[loki]

Less than 200 people are paid to race cars in the world. Number might actually be closer to 100 people. 

 

What qualifies someone as a pro driver? Is someone in F1 racing for a team because he bought the seat make him a pro? Because to me, that is the complete definition of a gentleman driver. Just in recent years it went from the wealthy businessmen wanting to race the big cars, to those wealthy businessmen buying their kid a seat in the big cars. 

There are more than 200 making a living racing ovals at places most on the forum have never heard.  There are several thousand in the US that make a living racing vehicles.  Off road, drags, short track.  In just the touring NASCAR series there are more than 100.  Plenty of people make a living racing.  Not that many make mega bucks.

[ardbeg]

However many there are, it's easy to see who is bottom of the list...

 

Tom Waits once said "If you make a mistake, do it again; then it's a composition". Guess that does not apply to racing.

[KiloWatt]

Why do you ask?

 

(neutral question)

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Perry McCarthy told a recent podcast that he believed there were about 3 million competition licences worldwide.

IMO that number is closer to reality. Of course, we have to define the OP's question. Since it did not specify whether they made a decent living, I am including all competition licences.

 

It is estimated that there are over 9,000 licensed drivers in NASCAR. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, there are drags, the SCCA, off road racing, and outlaw dirt tracks, to name a few.

 

[BRG]

 

Another interesting question, for me at least: 'How many drivers are there in the world who can drive a F1 car within the 110 percent range of the pole-position time?' I think about 150...

150?  I would say that there are at least 150 in a small country like, say, Malawi.  But none will ever get the chance to show it.  

 

World-wide there are probably millions who are potentially better than anyone currently racing - but again, they will never get the chance, or simply aren't that interested.  The Nissan GT Academy has shown that they can find gamers who are very competent real-life racers when given the opportunity.  

[KWSN - DSM]

Any one with a current racing license from their national federation is a racer, much much much more than 2845. Minimum 50.000 but I would expect even higher.

 

[hittheapex]

IMO that number is closer to reality. Of course, we have to define the OP's question. Since it did not specify whether they made a decent living, I am including all competition licences.

 

It is estimated that there are over 9,000 licensed drivers in NASCAR. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, there are drags, the SCCA, off road racing, and outlaw dirt tracks, to name a few.

 

 

 

I suppose the key point for answering the question is the distinction between serious race drivers who hold competition licences but can't make a living off racing alone, and then there are the fortunate and very talented minority who can make it their life's work.

[chunder27]

Interesting point about the GT Academy thing.

 

I think that kind of series actually should to a point degenerate the value of a lot of race drivers in some series. If you are a paid driver in something like GT racing or the US and some kid in his bedroom is able to just get into racecars and go quick its a real eye opener.

 

Having said that, Nissan, Sony and the like are spending in inordinate amount of money training these kids. I know for a fact that Mardenborough was nowhere near the quickest guy in the trials when he won the award, there was a very interesting discussion on here about it, he just "fitted the profile"  And that says it all sadly. Its about PR and marketing after all, not getting a driver to the top, they have a tv series for Gods sake!

 

Anyone can have the twitch mechanisms and time to be good on a simulator, you are learning a lot. "the alien" from Iracing (a far more representative sim than the garbage that Polyphony churn out) was put into a real race car and though reasonably quick and clearly able to drive, he was not stellar, why?  Because he was not trained, dieted, instructed and had millions spent on him like the Academy guys have. AsI say it is in the investors interest to make it work.

 

As a poster says earlier, race CAR drivers are very, very overrated in my view. I have seen kids at bike enduros, motocross events with staggering levels of talent at 10, no money, Mum bringing them down and renting a bike, you know they would be good. It sickens me watching some race series and seeing blokes with more money than sense piffling about in expensive racecars coz they can. It is pure jealousy yes, but it is a truly depressing and for me embarassing sight.

 

That Russin cretin in that Ferrari, shuld be banned for life for that stuff, yet there he is racing in a top level world race series, I mean cmon have a word.

 

Motorsport in cars is a very privileged sport, when you can have people running in Historic F1 at 30 seconds a lap off the pace becase they are linked to the organising club, that tells you all you need to know about the extremes compared to the above. I have seen talent in banger racing, budget autograss, rallycross. All sorts of sport. I dont see much of it in top level racing, all I see is money and contacts to be honest. I watched a bloke blatting up Shelsley last year that impressed me far more than anything else I saw in top level racing. His name was Jos Goodyear!

Edited by chunder27, 27 January 2015 - 14:24.

[sopa]

150?  I would say that there are at least 150 in a small country like, say, Malawi.  But none will ever get the chance to show it.  

 

World-wide there are probably millions who are potentially better than anyone currently racing - but again, they will never get the chance, or simply aren't that interested.  The Nissan GT Academy has shown that they can find gamers who are very competent real-life racers when given the opportunity.  

 

Depends on definition. If we mean being within 110% by jumping into the car right now and being on the pace, there are not that many. Though I think more than 150, for sure. Because 110% is a pretty "loose" gap and we expect it in the same car as the best driver, right? Rather than in a Marussia compared to Mercedes GP? But the thing is most talented people are nowhere prepared to go fast in F1 cars, because it demands special training for years. And this we really can't count or guesstimate here.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah isn't that 9 seconds a lap off the pace in a pole-winning car?

[sopa]

9 seconds is quite a lot. Maybe 105% would be a better challenge for those, who really want to feel themselves like racing drivers.

 

110% was a challenge perhaps for the likes of Chanoch Nissany, for example. And I don't think the likes of Richard Hammond made it, he found the F1 car a real handful to drive...

 

Actually going slower than the 110% mark isn't really that "easy", because it means the driver is struggling to heat up brakes, etc. So if you want to seriously go around in that thing, you have no other option than to be within 110%.

 

A bit better gentleman drivers (not so much racers) like Giovanni Lavaggi would easily make the 110% and there is a pretty good chance they'd make the 105% too.

[Nemo1965]

9 seconds is quite a lot. Maybe 105% would be a better challenge for those, who really want to feel themselves like racing drivers.

 

110% was a challenge perhaps for the likes of Chanoch Nissany, for example. And I don't think the likes of Richard Hammond made it, he found the F1 car a real handful to drive...

 

Actually going slower than the 110% mark isn't really that "easy", because it means the driver is struggling to heat up brakes, etc. So if you want to seriously go around in that thing, you have no other option than to be within 110%.

 

A bit better gentleman drivers (not so much racers) like Giovanni Lavaggi would easily make the 110% and there is a pretty good chance they'd make the 105% too.

 

I am quit sure that none of the regulars here - except perhaps Ross - would be able to drive a time within 10 seconds of that of Max Chilton in the Marussia (presuming the laptime is a 1.40 or so). Sorry guys! So I guess that there are indeed about 150 drivers in the world who would immediately be able to qualify a F1 car.

 

Just think about how shockingly slow both Luca Badoer (idiotically experienced F1 tester) and Giancarlo Fisichella (former race-winner, scored a podium in a midfield-car two weeks before) fared when they had to jump over into the Ferrari F1 car, just ANOTHER F1 car! And look what a cock Niki Lauda made of himself when he tried the F1 Jaguar. Albeit that was several years ago... perhaps the current cars...

Edited by Nemo1965, 27 January 2015 - 16:05.

[sopa]

I am quit sure that none of the regulars here - except perhaps Ross - would be able to drive within 10 seconds of Max Chilton in the same car. Sorry guys!

 

I was pretty shocked how both Luca Badoer (idiotically experienced F1 tester) and Giancarlo Fisichella (former race-winner, scored a podium in a midfield-car two weeks before) fared when they had to jump in the Ferrari.

 

And look what a cock Niki Lauda made of himself when he tried the F1 Jaguar. Albeit that was several years ago... perhaps the current cars... I don't know.

 

No probs.  But Luca Badoer was really 2 seconds off Raikkonen's pace, not 10. So that is a pretty significant difference and depends, at which gap % you want to draw the line. And I think the GP2, IndyCar, GP3, and many other series drivers can easily manage the 10 second gap. Basically lots of serious racing drivers.

 

Lauda was more than 50 years old at that time and not been seriously racing for a while. I think this should count for something!

[paipa]

150?  I would say that there are at least 150 in a small country like, say, Malawi.  But none will ever get the chance to show it.  

 

World-wide there are probably millions who are potentially better than anyone currently racing - but again, they will never get the chance, or simply aren't that interested.  The Nissan GT Academy has shown that they can find gamers who are very competent real-life racers when given the opportunity.  

This is not really specific to racing though, it applies to most high-profile professions. It's not much easier for those kids to become film directors or medical researchers either. A scientific counterpart to the GT Academy would be the Foldit project which has shown that gamers can determine protein structures that nobody managed to before. The problem of never getting a chance is extremely general. I wish it only existed in something as inconsequential as motor racing.

Edited by paipa, 27 January 2015 - 16:53.

[Supertourer]

The MSA represents 30,000 licence holders in the UK alone.

[7MGTEsup]

I am quit sure that none of the regulars here - except perhaps Ross - would be able to drive a time within 10 seconds of that of Max Chilton in the Marussia (presuming the laptime is a 1.40 or so). Sorry guys! So I guess that there are indeed about 150 drivers in the world who would immediately be able to qualify a F1 car.

 

 

 

Driving a racing car is like everything else in the world all it takes is practice. I'm pretty sure a large portion of drivers given some time could do a time witin 10 seconds of Max Chilton hell even Lewis Hamilton given the same car.

[shonguiz]

Uhmmm, am i missing something here?....

it's the 2014 statistic by the WDA.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I am quit sure that none of the regulars here - except perhaps Ross - would be able to drive a time within 10 seconds of that of Max Chilton in the Marussia (presuming the laptime is a 1.40 or so). Sorry guys! So I guess that there are indeed about 150 drivers in the world who would immediately be able to qualify a F1 car.

 

Just think about how shockingly slow both Luca Badoer (idiotically experienced F1 tester) and Giancarlo Fisichella (former race-winner, scored a podium in a midfield-car two weeks before) fared when they had to jump over into the Ferrari F1 car, just ANOTHER F1 car! And look what a cock Niki Lauda made of himself when he tried the F1 Jaguar. Albeit that was several years ago... perhaps the current cars...

 

While I appreciate the compliment, that was kind of my point   I think I could do +10% of an F1 cars potential. I was within that of a Formula 3000 champion in the same(non-F3000) car. If you've got the basic mileage under your belt and have driven a single seater you could probably do it. Someone coming out of Renault Clio Cup might struggle.

 

Especially with simulators these days. It'd cut down your learning curve *a lot*. So anyone we'd reasonably call a pro driver could probably get an F1 car within 110%. 110% of that specific car. Getting a Caterham within 110% requires a lot because you have to drive the Caterham much closer to it's maximum because you already have the laptime deficit.

[Nemo1965]

While I appreciate the compliment, that was kind of my point   I think I could do +10% of an F1 cars potential. I was within that of a Formula 3000 champion in the same(non-F3000) car. If you've got the basic mileage under your belt and have driven a single seater you could probably do it. Someone coming out of Renault Clio Cup might struggle.

 

Especially with simulators these days. It'd cut down your learning curve *a lot*. So anyone we'd reasonably call a pro driver could probably get an F1 car within 110%. 110% of that specific car. Getting a Caterham within 110% requires a lot because you have to drive the Caterham much closer to it's maximum because you already have the laptime deficit.

 

Well, we agree then. I think the notion that in ANY country you could find hundreds of people who could qualify a F1 car within 10 percent of the original driver (even if it is Max Chilton) is ridiculous. I find it baffling how many people underestimate how good you have to be to compete with Chilton or other drivers that are mocked so much on these boards... For me, a professional driver SHOULD be able to be within 110 percent of another F1 driver... by my estimation is that there can't be more than about 150 people who would be able to do what Andre Loterrer did at Spa: jump in a F1 car, and be quick enough to qualify.

[chunder27]

The point with Lotterer is not really a fair one, he has driven single seaters for years on and off, also drives very high grip cars in WEC and is used to G, the big team and dealing with the media, quality engineers etc.

 

More interesting would be to put someone like Loeb, Ogier, Marquez in there, guys at the very top and above in their game, and see how they adapted. Fitness would be the issue as always

[Risil]

Having said that, Nissan, Sony and the like are spending in inordinate amount of money training these kids. I know for a fact that Mardenborough was nowhere near the quickest guy in the trials when he won the award, there was a very interesting discussion on here about it, he just "fitted the profile"  And that says it all sadly. Its about PR and marketing after all, not getting a driver to the top, they have a tv series for Gods sake!

 

I heard that story too. Although there was a more positive spin, that Mardenborough scored very well on ability to learn, determination, mental resilience, relationships with the team and so on. Given that no established racers have come up through the Nissan Academy and been compared with some no-names in equal equipment at a very early stage of their career, it's unfair to single out Mardenborough for that treatment.

[Jimisgod]

150? I would say that there are at least 150 in a small country like, say, Malawi. But none will ever get the chance to show it.

World-wide there are probably millions who are potentially better than anyone currently racing - but again, they will never get the chance, or simply aren't that interested. The Nissan GT Academy has shown that they can find gamers who are very competent real-life racers when given the opportunity.

That is an interesting point. F1 these days isn't overly athletic, aside from weight restrictions. You don't need to be 18 to be at your peak (despite the drop off that seems to come at ~35).

Conventional wisdom says start at 6 or lower so you have 10 years experience by F3 level. There might be far more talented drivers at 16 who were never given the chance by their parents and are now ignored due to lack of experience. Damon Hill, although much maligned on here, didn't start cars until adulthood and was still champion. In fact, the sheer number of racing sons in F1 proves that (unless talent is inherited) those with early exposure to motorsport have an advantage regardless of natural talent.

[Jimisgod]

The point with Lotterer is not really a fair one, he has driven single seaters for years on and off, also drives very high grip cars in WEC and is used to G, the big team and dealing with the media, quality engineers etc.

More interesting would be to put someone like Loeb, Ogier, Marquez in there, guys at the very top and above in their game, and see how they adapted. Fitness would be the issue as always

I think Rossi, Loeb, Marquez are so talented that they could probably outdo the Ericssons and Chiltons after a season. They might not be winners but they wouldn't be outside 107% either.

[sopa]

Loeb actually tested F1 car and from what I remember, he was easily within 110 or whatever %. A few seconds off ultimate pace perhaps, but nonetheless pretty good for a complete newcomer.

 

The thing with Rossi, Loeb and Marquez is that even though they participate in a different discipline, they are physically very fit, so from that front F1 car shouldn't cause as much problems as for an average Joe from the street. Even if F1 car puts an extra emphasis for several specific muscles, like neck.

[hittheapex]

Loeb actually tested F1 car and from what I remember, he was easily within 110 or whatever %. A few seconds off ultimate pace perhaps, but nonetheless pretty good for a complete newcomer.

 

The thing with Rossi, Loeb and Marquez is that even though they participate in a different discipline, they are physically very fit, so from that front F1 car shouldn't cause as much problems as for an average Joe from the street. Even if F1 car puts an extra emphasis for several specific muscles, like neck.

That's a good point. I remember that Steve Sutcliffe, a journalist who has done some track racing, got within 4 tenths of James Rossiter's time when he tested a Honda F1 car in 2005 or 2006. It was a 48 second lap but still, an outstanding effort. He said his neck was gone after two laps though, obviously not as much of a problem for Rossi, Loeb and Marquez with their fitness regimen and day jobs.

 

I think some members of the public could get within 110% for a couple of laps, but they would have to be fitter to maintain that speed through a session of a Grand Prix weekend.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

This conversation has started to slide from racers to Formula One. Not unexpected.

 

Generally any professional driver has to posses "talent". But even then that does not mean that any specific driver is capable in another type of racing. One good example is Steve Kinser, undeniably a God on dirt tracks. But when he attempted to translate his skills into NASCAR, it was a huge flop.

 

Formula One requires a very specialized and unique skill set, and specific experience. Fisichella was at the top of his game when he switched from Force India to Ferrari. The Ferrari required very specific driving, so different from the Force India that he could not master it quick enough.

 

IMO there are thousands of drivers with the potential to become Formula One drivers but for countless reasons did not get there. It is not that they had the potential, but did not have (just a few common examples) the financing, political support, or even chose not to go down that road.

[Jimisgod]

Less than 200 people are paid to race cars in the world. Number might actually be closer to 100 people.

What qualifies someone as a pro driver? Is someone in F1 racing for a team because he bought the seat make him a pro? Because to me, that is the complete definition of a gentleman driver. Just in recent years it went from the wealthy businessmen wanting to race the big cars, to those wealthy businessmen buying their kid a seat in the big cars.

What? I'm sure every year there are 100 drivers in Australia alone who earn the majority of their earnings from competition. There will probably be dozens of drivers earning cash for their drives at the Bathurst 12 hour.

So long as it isn't your own company, even bringing money to a team counts as earning because those sponsors obviously pay you so you don't starve and go homeless. Ericsson isn't working at the corner shop to get by.

Globally there are probably something like a few thousand drivers who earn enough to live from racing. F1 is somewhat of an anomaly because there is a privilege factor just getting a drive there. Rookie F1 drivers are now more like interns who earn the right for big bucks after proving themselves.

The days of the 00s when salaries for midfield drivers were $2-5 million are gone, but let's not pretend they're not actually earning money. Except maybe the unlucky Red Bull drivers who apparently get saddled with debts.

[Knot]

Millions and millions and millions and millions, judging by all the lead foots I see on the road every day.

[ChrisF1MyLife]

whatever it is, add 1 cause I beat a Mini Cooper S this morning when he picked the wrong lane, all about looking ahead and spotting a gap. Fiat for the win yeoooo

[prty]

9 seconds is quite a lot. Maybe 105% would be a better challenge for those, who really want to feel themselves like racing drivers.

 

110% was a challenge perhaps for the likes of Chanoch Nissany, for example. And I don't think the likes of Richard Hammond made it, he found the F1 car a real handful to drive...

 

Actually going slower than the 110% mark isn't really that "easy", because it means the driver is struggling to heat up brakes, etc. So if you want to seriously go around in that thing, you have no other option than to be within 110%.

 

A bit better gentleman drivers (not so much racers) like Giovanni Lavaggi would easily make the 110% and there is a pretty good chance they'd make the 105% too.

 

I remember when Carlos Sainz tested a F1 in Montmelo for a few laps in 2005 or so, de la Rosa told him that he'd be impressed if he was less than 20 secs off the pace, which he managed easily.

With some seat time (and equally important to assimilate things, rest time), 3 secs off the pace is where it starts to get tough, see the likes of Rossi. And for the last second, years and plenty of talent is needed.
 

[loki]

I am quit sure that none of the regulars here - except perhaps Ross - would be able to drive a time within 10 seconds of that of Max Chilton in the Marussia (presuming the laptime is a 1.40 or so). Sorry guys! So I guess that there are indeed about 150 drivers in the world who would immediately be able to qualify a F1 car.

 

Just think about how shockingly slow both Luca Badoer (idiotically experienced F1 tester) and Giancarlo Fisichella (former race-winner, scored a podium in a midfield-car two weeks before) fared when they had to jump over into the Ferrari F1 car, just ANOTHER F1 car! And look what a cock Niki Lauda made of himself when he tried the F1 Jaguar. Albeit that was several years ago... perhaps the current cars...

And of F1 drivers, how many could hit a 300 + 1000 ft in a Top Fuel car?  How many could qualify in the top of the field at Daytona?  Or even an oval at all in an Indycar?  How many could finish within 9 minutes of the leader of the Baja 1000?

 

There is much more to pro racing than F1. While there are some exceptional drivers of formula cars, most of them don't do well when they go to other disciplines.    Seeing how they have focused most of thier lives on racing this type of vehicle they better be good.  But that doesn't make most of them any better than any other form of race driver.