374 replies to this topic

[charly0418]

 

 

 

Part 2 of this interesting pair. Even though it looks a little darker because of not having a competitive car for this year. 

 

Can they still impress top teams with a crappy car? Will one finally stop doing stupid mistakes (guess who!) and will the other one finally get his podium?

Edited by charly0418, 11 March 2015 - 20:25.

[DutchQuicksilver]

I expect a 2014 Lotus esque season for them with Pérez in the Maldonado role and Hulkenberg in the Grosjean role. The car didn't look impressive in Barcelona and was slowest of all in the long runs. Hulkenberg will drive patiently like always and Pérez will still be unpredictable. Being in an uncompetitive car could make Pérez revert back to erratic Pérez from 2013 at McLaren.

[charly0418]

I expect a 2014 Lotus esque season for them with Pérez in the Maldonado role and Hulkenberg in the Grosjean role. The car didn't look impressive in Barcelona and was slowest of all in the long runs. Hulkenberg will drive patiently like always and Pérez will still be unpredictable. Being in an uncompetitive car could make Pérez revert back to erratic Pérez from 2013 at McLaren.

 

agree, lets see if he doesnt go nuts again

[Afterburner]

I'm getting deja vu here. Weren't they at Force India last time they were together?

[sopa]

Is this now a common knowledge that they have a "crappy car"? I mean I think they should still get at least into points with it. Which is better than Sauber and also Lotus last year. Maybe around Toro Rosso?

 

One thing is sure - if a car is uncompetitive and points are harder to come by, all points comparisons will be less adequate and scores will be more dependent on circumstances. A single P7 in an attrition race will far outweigh consistent string of 10th and 11th positions, while your team-mate is 12th or 13th.

[Vesuvius]

Pretty even pairing, 2014 Hulkenberg started strongly and Perez wasn´t as strong, but when season went forward, Perez looked faster than Hulkenberg. I expect Hulkenberg to be ahead by a little margin.

Edited by Vesuvius, 12 March 2015 - 09:18.

[Laster]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they have a crap car yet, just a woefully underprepared one. Their fastest laps were only 7 tenths of the likes of Sauber and Toro Rosso and those two teams had 8 and a half days more testing done, they've been discovering what their car can do and pushing it, Force India has not. They will make some huge gains over the course of the first 5 or so races as they begin to push the car. So yeah their season will start out crap but I don't expect them to have a season like Saubers or Lotuses 2014.

Concerning Perez and Hulk, I expect Hulk to have the edge again through consistency.

[Collective]

New weight limit will play into Nico's hands...

[charly0418]

Welp, car is slow as hell as expected lol. Kind of sad to read Nico and Checos quotes today. At least they're realistic

[charly0418]

.001 difference between em. Damnit if they had a better car

[rosscamero]

Good job by both of them. Given their lack of testing I am sure both of them would have taken those slots coming into the race.

[Laster]

If Hulk hadn't lost so much time in that last corner he may well have made Q3 he was 3 tenths up on what was the tenth spot at that moment in time. I don't think it went nearly as bad as people seemed to expect.

[SheIsDisaster]

Checo & Nico post race interview

 

 

[Krchan]

It'll be close between them this year i think. But sadly most of the time out of the points. The car is soooo slow. Such a shame,

[warp]

How did Checo ended up in front of Hulk?

There was a point in the race that he was being passed by everyone and complaning about the car not going anywhere... then he played bumping cars with Grosjean and got the penalty.

 

I'm aware Hulk got a penalty too (not really deserved??) but he was far in front of Checo, only to come behind him. Was he screwed by the pitwall or what? I didn't get that part.

Edited by warp, 30 March 2015 - 06:43.

[Krchan]

His tyres were gone. He told the team on the radio that they won't last till the end, so they pitted him for the third time.

[Exb]

So on top of the two fairly questionable time penalties given out in the race to both Force India drivers the stewards also decided the incidents warrented 2 penalty points on each of their licenses.

[Gareth]

Right decision for Perez, IMO.  He seems to think there was nothing he could do.  For him, lifting off the right hand peddle or pressing the left hand one is not an option.  Doesn't matter if the other car is ahead of him, he's taking the racing line and pushing them off track and it's their fault for being near him.

 

Wrong decision for Hulkenberg, IMO.  I thought he was far enough alongside to deserve a car's width on the apex.

[selespeed]

2 penalty points for racing incidents???

again stupidity from FIA...

[henke1972]

I feel that these drivers both of them are going in the wrong directions...last year they both impressed; Perez with the speed (incl the podium place) and Hulkenberg with the consistency. 

 

But so far this year...well...maybe they should not be judged after two races and limited testing, but it looks like they are both doing a bit of too much errors. 

 

Going from the future stars to a has-been can go very fast sometimes...and i feel that they both are on that slope...

 

Hope I am wrong, because I like both of the drivers. 

[Jon83]

I feel that these drivers both of them are going in the wrong directions...last year they both impressed; Perez with the speed (incl the podium place) and Hulkenberg with the consistency. 

 

But so far this year...well...maybe they should not be judged after two races and limited testing, but it looks like they are both doing a bit of too much errors. 

 

Going from the future stars to a has-been can go very fast sometimes...and i feel that they both are on that slope...

 

Hope I am wrong, because I like both of the drivers. 

 

To be honest, I think the car is the main factor here. 

 

Yesterday, both were either being overtaken or had a queue of cars behind ready to pass. Throw in the penalties and it was just a horrible day all round. Soul destroying if you're a FI supporter I'd imagine. 

 

I think Hulk is a good, solid driver who would excel in a better car / bigger team. Perez has some excellent weekends but gets involved in too many incidents. I still feel it's a strong combination, especially in comparison to other midfield teams. 

[Jon83]

PS - If Hulk is getting penalty points for that incident, I'd expect multiple points to be applied to a number of licences every race weekend.

 

I really do wonder what these 'driver stewards' actually do.  

[Lights]

The Hulkenberg penalty was undeserved in my opinion. He still had his front alongside Ricciardo, and the flow of the next corner would have most likely put them side by side on the exit. Ricciardo should not have turned in on the apex like that.

 

The Perez penalty was deserved, and oh dear me how surprising is it that he cannot admit blame for it. I really cannot stand drivers who refuse to admit anything was their mistake. Grosjean is ahead and on the faster outside line, Perez was never going to win that corner.

Edit: realized Gareth already wrote basically the same 

Edited by Lights, 30 March 2015 - 10:32.

[Collective]

The Perez penalty was deserved, and oh dear me how surprising is it that he cannot admit blame for it. I really cannot stand drivers who refuse to admit anything was their mistake. Grosjean is ahead and on the faster outside line, Perez was never going to win that corner.

 

It was an exaggeration. The move was risky, on the outside, and the section is fast and on the limit, the possibility of a touch comes with the territory. You are always going to have some oversteer/pull there even while backing off (unless you consider backing off to mean stump on the brakes on a fast section so the guy making a move on the outside can go his merry way without inconvenience, in which case we might as well introduce lights blinking and horns and penalty people who defend after the overtaker has blinked and beeped).

 

Some times racing incidents are just that. Heck, if you really need to assign blame we have smaller penalties... I have seen a lot worse stuff getting no penalties, reprimands or just 5 seconds. Stewarding was over the top here IMO.

Edited by Collective, 30 March 2015 - 13:30.

[Myrvold]

It was an exaggeration. The move was risky, on the outside, and the section is fast and on the limit, the possibility of a touch comes with the territory.

The move wasn't that risky, seeing how much faster Grosjean was out of the previous corner. But when you are fighting with Perez. Everything is risky.

[toniovodka]

The move wasn't that risky, seeing how much faster Grosjean was out of the previous corner. But when you are fighting with Perez. Everything is risky.

it was a risky move, no other driver tried that move, they waited a bit, it was a matter of time before he could pass checo. 2 hothead drivers + 1 corner its a potential disaster.

 

Hulk-Checo remind me a lot to Heidfield-Villenueve, one consistent and the other with a glory or nothing mind

[henke1972]

To be honest, I think the car is the main factor here. 

 

Yesterday, both were either being overtaken or had a queue of cars behind ready to pass. Throw in the penalties and it was just a horrible day all round. Soul destroying if you're a FI supporter I'd imagine. 

 

I think Hulk is a good, solid driver who would excel in a better car / bigger team. Perez has some excellent weekends but gets involved in too many incidents. I still feel it's a strong combination, especially in comparison to other midfield teams. 

 

For sure the car does not help...but Hulk have been promising for some years now, and Checo have also been around for some time as well, and it is a risk that they both become like Heidfield and de Chesaris (or Webber before the RBR-years...); solid drivers but neither THAT hungry or having the extreme experience (read: Barichello, Lafitte, Boutsen, Patrese...) that can sort of help the team to sort the car out.    

 

For last year I also agreed that it is among the best driver combination on the grid, and probably the best of the mid-field, but...this year. Time will tell. It is tough on the Midfield and both Lotus, Sauber and Toro Rosso would like to play...

[thuGG]

it was a risky move, no other driver tried that move, they waited a bit, it was a matter of time before he could pass checo. 2 hothead drivers + 1 corner its a potential disaster.

 

Hulk-Checo remind me a lot to Heidfield-Villenueve, one consistent and the other with a glory or nothing mind

 

Even if it was risky, Perez isn't a rookie, he should give Grosjean some space since he was alongside. Bad driving from Perez here.

Also think that Hulk didn't deserve penalty, RA at most.

[Requiem84]

Somehow this pairing devaluates the market value and perception of both drivers.

Hulk was expected to beat Checo comfortably over a season. He obviously didn't. Checo however can't beat Hulk either, or if he has a streak he starts to make silly (rookie?) mistakes.

After last year and this year, being a teamboss, I wouldn't rate either highly.

More people who feel like this, or is it just me?

[MikeV1987]

I still rate Hulk very high, I think Perez is just as fast but he is a pretty dirty racer and is no where near as consistent as Hulk is.

Edited by MikeV1987, 01 April 2015 - 16:20.

[Jon83]

For sure the car does not help...but Hulk have been promising for some years now, and Checo have also been around for some time as well, and it is a risk that they both become like Heidfield and de Chesaris (or Webber before the RBR-years...); solid drivers but neither THAT hungry or having the extreme experience (read: Barichello, Lafitte, Boutsen, Patrese...) that can sort of help the team to sort the car out.    

 

For last year I also agreed that it is among the best driver combination on the grid, and probably the best of the mid-field, but...this year. Time will tell. It is tough on the Midfield and both Lotus, Sauber and Toro Rosso would like to play...

 

If Hulk isn't given the chance in a top team then there is little he can do to fulfill the promise he has. Perez to some extent as well, as the McLaren car of 2013 was poor.

 

The car issues - I take your point but would say that there is a limited amount they can do, especially considering how little testing either was able to do. 

 

They both had good results in the first race but on a normal track, with all cars starting for a start, I think they'll only score points if unreliability strikes others. Whether or not the team has the ability to change that mid-season, when they say things will improve, remains to be seen. 

[Jon83]

Somehow this pairing devaluates the market value and perception of both drivers.

Hulk was expected to beat Checo comfortably over a season. He obviously didn't. Checo however can't beat Hulk either, or if he has a streak he starts to make silly (rookie?) mistakes.

After last year and this year, being a teamboss, I wouldn't rate either highly.

More people who feel like this, or is it just me?

 

Nico beat Perez by 37 points last season in a midfield car. I can't remember what the qualifying comparison was and I appreciate Perez missed a race but I'd say Hulk won the battle more than comfortably. I didn't think there was much dispute about it to be honest. 

[Kyo]

As far as teammates battle goes, Hulk lost his rookie season to RB and then beat di Resta, Gutierrez and Perez. Perez lost his rookie season to Kamui, won his second against the same Kamui and then lost against JB and Hulk.

[emmanuelrubi]

With things going this way i wouldnt be surprised if any of the drivers if not both abandon the sport in 2016 or leave the team for another mid field team.

[DS27]

I almost hope NH goes off and does something else next year for his own sake

[sopa]

The "loser" of this team-mate battle will have a hard time keeping himself in the sport. Because in a crap car you are not in the spotlight, new guys are coming in all the time. And if you lose the battle too... In this situation you can carry on only if you are already a well-established star (Button) or have a big wallet (Maldonado), or you are simply a very new driver (1st or 2nd season) and teams still believe in your potential.

 

I still have a fair amount of belief in the potential of especially Hulkenberg. You can only look at the likes of Ricciardo, Alonso and Button to realize that good drivers can end up in crap cars.

 

Button himself was also at the back in 2007-2008 Hondas. Heidfeld was in the backmarker Jordan in 2004, Fisichella also at the back in 2003. Looking at these examples - it is possible to climb out of the hell and get into better teams/cars. It could also be that Force India is simply having a slump-season like Sauber did in 2014, and Williams in 2011 and 2013. And that next year FI will be "back to normal" again once they have restructured the team.

[Kyo]

The "loser" of this team-mate battle will have a hard time keeping himself in the sport. Because in a crap car you are not in the spotlight, new guys are coming in all the time. And if you lose the battle too... In this situation you can carry on only if you are already a well-established star (Button) or have a big wallet (Maldonado), or you are simply a very new driver (1st or 2nd season) and teams still believe in your potential.

 

I still have a fair amount of belief in the potential of especially Hulkenberg. You can only look at the likes of Ricciardo, Alonso and Button to realize that good drivers can end up in crap cars.

 

Button himself was also at the back in 2007-2008 Hondas. Heidfeld was in the backmarker Jordan in 2004, Fisichella also at the back in 2003. Looking at these examples - it is possible to climb out of the hell and get into better teams/cars. It could also be that Force India is simply having a slump-season like Sauber did in 2014, and Williams in 2011 and 2013. And that next year FI will be "back to normal" again once they have restructured the team.

Thats true to Hulk, not to Perez since he brings in a lot of sponsors.

[emmanuelrubi]

More Chances of performing better: Nico
More chances of staying in F1: Perez

Imo and a wild guess based on talks last year IF Maldonado underperforms again this year he is leaving the sport his contract ends this season, then Perez enters Lotus. Nico either staying at FI or leaving full time WEC

[Gyan]

I think the Hulk's done a good thing keeping his options open for next year. In case he got that podium, things would work out well for next year. If they didn't, then he has a clear route into WEC. Perez will probably shift to Lotus and FI will need Maldonado otherwise face tough times probably.

[emmanuelrubi]

So with Nico Retiring is Perez 2-1 in Qualy and Race ?

[Kyo]

So with Nico Retiring is Perez 2-1 in Qualy and Race ?

Not in my book

 

Qualy is 2-1 for Nico

Races is 1-0 for Nico. (Malysia the team gave the order for no overtaking and they finished next to each other and in China Nico was ahead when he retired with mechanical issues. So both I consider non scores)

[emmanuelrubi]

Quali indeed i was wrong, races is 2-1 for Sergio otherwise we also should consider the races where Sergio did not finished last year and by those means so the hughly rated nico wouldnt be that good last year.

[Kyo]

Quali indeed i was wrong, races is 2-1 for Sergio otherwise we also should consider the races where Sergio did not finished last year and by those means so the hughly rated nico wouldnt be that good last year.

Well, I have my own method to score. Basically if driver ahead retires with mechanical problems race becomes a non score, if driver behind retires with mechanical problems points go for driver ahead. Any driver retires because a wheel to wheel touch or a mistake of his own points go for the other driver.

 

Using this method for scoring teammates battle I have achieved results much closer to my personal feeling of how the drivers fared against each others compared to scoring all races to the driver who finished ahead or scoring only the races both drivers finished the race.

[Krchan]

Well, I have my own method to score. Basically if driver ahead retires with mechanical problems race becomes a non score, if driver behind retires with mechanical problems points go for driver ahead. Any driver retires because a wheel to wheel touch or a mistake of his own points go for the other driver.

 

Using this method for scoring teammates battle I have achieved results much closer to my personal feeling of how the drivers fared against each others compared to scoring all races to the driver who finished ahead or scoring only the races both drivers finished the race.

 

I have my own method too. In quali I tolerate 0.001s, so that makes their quali battle 1-1 (or 2-2). In races I give points to the driver that finishes higher, so that makes it 2-1 to Sergio. On the career ratings, i give points for WDC, race wins and podiums, so the score here is 4-0 to Sergio. And i don't care about the points... hey, it looks like Checo is obviously a better driver...  beeing a little sarcastic. It obviously depends on how you look at it or who do you prefer. But realisticly, they're both pretty good drivers, sadly Checo isn't as popular as some others on this forum and gets a lot of criticism for every mistake. I agree that he deserves some, but let's say that he would rear-end Pastor instead of Button yesterday, there would allready be a 5-page thread and a poll about it...

[charly0418]

He obsiouly aint gonna get much praise but Sergio had a great race Sunday, even did some good overtakes. If Hulk would have continued he would have probably ended up like 5 seconds ahead of him, but we'll never know. Either way same story. Car is ****

[Krchan]

Checo very good, Hulk pretty bad. 3-1 for Checo in races.

[charly0418]

Hulkenbergs strategy was never going to work. The car is too slow to do a normal strategy

[emmanuelrubi]

3-1 in Quali for Hulk
3-1 in Races for Perez

[RAGE12463]

Sergio is so damn good at making 1 less stop strategies work. 

[warp]

Somehow this pairing devaluates the market value and perception of both drivers.

Hulk was expected to beat Checo comfortably over a season. He obviously didn't. Checo however can't beat Hulk either, or if he has a streak he starts to make silly (rookie?) mistakes.

After last year and this year, being a teamboss, I wouldn't rate either highly.

More people who feel like this, or is it just me?

 

 

You are not alone. Call me stupid, but I am of the same opinion.

One is showing the flaws on the other and it ain't looking good for both. Shame, as they would both be capable of much more in another car.

 

Probably the teams don't help. Should they be tossing away a championship or podiums, then we would still think "but they have a place in a midfield team". But they are in a midfield team already.

Future ain't looking bright for neither of them.

 

Checo may have it a little easier until the next Mexican wonder comes up or Slim decides to pull out of F1. Heck, now he is a Ferrari sponsor, they may not even need a driver to promote his brand, just his logo on the scarlet cars.