131 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

I feel that the discussion about hybrid technology in F1 gets muddled in the discussions about viewing figures and the current engine noise. The relevance of hybrid technology in F1, not just about the current engines which are only the first implementation, is surely worth a discussion on it's own merits.

 

Switzerland has just mandated that motorsport is legal once again, albeit only for electric vehicles. This is a huge step in reversing a 60-year taboo, one which has repeatedly been upheld by the Swiss legislator over the years on environmental grounds. This was not possible without the rise of Formula E and effectively, hybrid technology becoming the motorsport mainstream.

 

Alas, the discussion can't really be made without referring to the broader world, either. Climate change is settled ground in the scientific community, and it's only really self-interested parties in power that prevent anything being done about it. So surely it's left to the engineering profession to find the solutions to global problems.

 

These two factors suggest to me that if F1 wants to remain relevant both politically and in engineering terms, surely hybrid or other forms of green technology are essential to it's long-term survival. I'd quite like to hear the concrete reasons why some believe it isn't.

[TomNokoe]

Yay. Yay yay yay yay. The technology is remarkable. There is a beauty in the future, the excellence of what these terrifically smart engineers bring to the sport.

[Ben1445]

Absolutely. I think it's quite sad that these engines are going not much slower than years before on so much less fuel. All we can talk about is the bloomin' sound. Come on people, they're impressive bits of kit!

Besides, one day F1 will merge with Formula E*

 

*(I will now run and hide.)

Edited by Ben1445, 18 March 2015 - 17:44.

[Victor_RO]

Yes. Top-level motorsport should be a mix of entertainment and the cutting edge of what the automotive industry has to offer in terms of technology, and since hybrid powertrains are the big current area of development, F1 and LMP1 should lead the way. And then gradually, over the next few years, improve them so much that they must move on to newer, even more cutting-edge technologies.

[Giz]

Yes

I'd like to see a reduction in restrictions on development (to the hybrid components) for any manufacturer who was willing to reduce their race fuel limit in exchange

Edited by Giz, 18 March 2015 - 17:43.

[TF110]

Yes it should be in f1. Too bad its not more open.

[Ben1445]

Yes

I'd like to see a reduction in restrictions on development (to the hybrid components) for any manufacturer who was willing to reduce their race fuel limit in exchange

That is inspired. 

Edited by Ben1445, 18 March 2015 - 17:46.

[SUPRAF1]

Does old school KERS count as hybrid or do you mean pure electrical motor only with an ICE+generator to provide the electricity?

[Fastcake]

Yes. Top-level motorsport should be a mix of entertainment and the cutting edge of what the automotive industry has to offer in terms of technology, and since hybrid powertrains are the big current area of development, F1 and LMP1 should lead the way. And then gradually, over the next few years, improve them so much that they must move on to newer, even more cutting-edge technologies.

 

Pretty much what you said.

 

At its heart, Motorsport is about getting to the finish line in the quickest possible time. What technology is used to achieve that shouldn't really matter - as long as you're using a motor of some sort and a set of tyres, it's all good with me.   

[Rasputin]

No, hybrids already has its arena, at Le Mans and similar attactions.

[Tourgott]

Yes but not on the expense of the sound and emotions. The mistake they made with these engines is that they are just build by engineers and not by people who actually love F1 and/or understand the needs of the fans.

The same happens if companies put engineers in sales/marketing positions. They are clever guys but they have absolutey no idea about business.

Edited by Tourgott, 18 March 2015 - 17:54.

[Enzoluis]

I voted  F1 should pursue a different form of "green" technology because I would prefer a limitation on the quantities of CO2 emited by race and let the engine manufacturers reach the goal in the way they want. 

[Ben1445]

Yes but not on the expense of the sound. The mistake they made with these engines is that they are just build by engineers and not by people who actually love F1 and/or understand the needs of the fans.

The same happens if companies put engineers in sales/marketing positions. They are clever guys but they have absolutey no idea about business.

See, to me the sound pales into insignificance in comparison to the wider issue, sound is wasted energy after all. I'd much rather see cutting edge development in hybrid/electric racing machines then continue with what we have. There will always be classic events to go to, but the future is exciting!

[Giz]

What other forms of green energy could be used?

[Tourgott]

See, to me the sound pales into insignificance in comparison to the wider issue, sound is wasted energy after all. I'd much rather see cutting edge development in hybrid/electric racing machines then continue with what we have. There will always be classic events to go to, but the future is exciting!

 

That's ok. But you guys have to accept that the minority of people think that way.

[Ben1445]

That's ok. But you guys have to accept that the minority of people think that way.

For now, maybe. But that will change at some point, and if you don't then that's ok. 

[Tourgott]

For now, maybe. But that will change at some point, and if you don't then that's ok. 

 

Maybe, but not soon enough for F1. Which means it will be too late for F1. That's why something has to be done right now.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Does hybrid technology have a place in F1?

YES - but why limit it to 160 BHP and not have it unlimited or a higher BHP?

 

and F1 needs to highlight just how good these V6T's are - less fuel and marginally slower now and a lot better for your hearing. Need to concentrate on the GOOD and not the BAD...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 18 March 2015 - 20:55.

[Ben1445]

Maybe, but not soon enough for F1. Which means it will be too late for F1. That's why something has to be done right now.

F1 really has mismanaged the whole rule set. Yes something needs to be done but the idea of going away from the 'green' developments is to me worrying and would be a retrograde step. 

So maybe you're right, yes there is a place but not exactly as it is right now 

Edited by Ben1445, 18 March 2015 - 18:29.

[beute]

What other forms of green energy could be used?

Why does it have to be green?

 

Think about how many people and their equipment attend those races and how they get there. Fans, Teams, Track people, TV guys, journalists and so on... do we really have to worry about what 24 cars (at best) produce in their 8hours of running per weekend?

[D1rtyHarry]

Now do a new poll asking if anyone cares about how much fuel an F1 car uses for a race. I can't fathom how anyone would. These are race cars, it's not like people are watching to compare it's fuel economy with the family car.

[Giz]

Why does it have to be green?

Think about how many people and their equipment attend those races and how they get there. Fans, Teams, Track people, TV guys, journalists and so on... do we really have to worry about what 24 cars (at best) produce in their 8hours of running per weekend?

Yes of course, whilst doing something to help the things you mention would of course help the 24 cars are "the show"

[Lazy]

YES - but why limited it to 160 BHP and not have it unlimited or a higher BHP?

 

and F1 needs to highlight just how good these V6T's are - less fuel and marginally slower now and a lot better for your hearing. Need to concentrate on the GOOD and not the BAD...

Imagine how far Merc would be ahead if they had done that.

[Tourgott]

F1 really has mismanaged the whole rule set. Yes something needs to be done but the idea of going away from the 'green' developments is to me worrying and would be a retrograde step. 

So maybe you're right, yes there is a place but not exactly as it is right now 

 

That's why I plead in favor of a compromise. I'm not an engineer but maybe an V8 aspirated engine with a much more effective ERS or anything like that.

The problem is that it is much too expensive to develop such an engine just two years after these V6's. They should have done that from the beginning. Now we are stuck and F1 is killing itself.

Edited by Tourgott, 18 March 2015 - 18:38.

[Ben1445]

That's why I plead in favor of a compromise. I'm not an engineer but maybe an V8 aspirated engine with a much more effective ERS or anything like that.

The problem is that it is much too expensive to develop such an engine just two years after these V6's. They should have done that from the beginning. Now we are stuck and F1 is killing itself.

I believe we are in agreement 

[Gyno]

 

Alas, the discussion can't really be made without referring to the broader world, either. Climate change is settled ground in the scientific community, and it's only really self-interested parties in power that prevent anything being done about it. So surely it's left to the engineering profession to find the solutions to global problems.

 

Nope, Not even close to being true.

 

Also

 

Todays Hybrid technology is worse for the planet than modern combustion engines are.

They are infact very very clean compared to the so called Green tech eco hybrid cars.

 

 

 

BTW for those who think Crude oil are from Fossils.

There is a Moon around a Planet in our solar System that have OCEANS of oil on it.

Where did all that oil came from?

 

It's a Well known fact within the industry that oil does not come from Fossils.

If that was really the case, then we would have run out of oil Long long long time ago.

BTW they found oil fields that hold more oil in them then what have been burnt up by us Humans in our short history on this planet.

So we wont be running out of oil in a very long time.

[Ben1445]

Nope, Not even close to being true.

 

Also

 

Todays Hybrid technology is worse for the planet than modern combustion engines are.

They are infact very very clean compared to the so called Green tech eco hybrid cars.

 

 

 

BTW for those who think Crude oil are from Fossils.

There is a Moon around a Planet in our solar System that have OCEANS of oil on it.

Where did all that oil came from?

 

It's a Well known fact within the industry that oil does not come from Fossils.

If that was really the case, then we would have run out of oil Long long long time ago.

BTW they found oil fields that hold more oil in them then what have been burnt up by us Humans in our short history on this planet.

So we wont be running out of oil in a very long time.

O_o

[MikeV1987]

Yay

 

I really don't care for saving fuel and all that boring stuff, but we'll see these technologies trickle down into road cars some day which I think is pretty cool.

Edited by MikeV1987, 18 March 2015 - 18:59.

[Giz]

Perhaps the teams should research how to get the oil down from the moon it'd probably be cheaper than running a season of F1

They can get some more cheese whilst they are up there cut down on methane emissions from dairy cows

[superden]

Yes, if you are talking about F1 having a future in the current political and social climate. The green agenda in the West, whilst questionable in its application when China and India pump crud into the sky, is fashionable, socially and politically.

No, if you are talking on a personal level. I just don't find electric power, hybrids and all that jazz 'interesting'. I admit it, I'm old. I love big noisy engines that burn dinosaurs.

The same applies to road cars. Electric? Batteries? It just does nothing for me. I have always had a passion for cars but the new breed of automobiles just leave me cold. They are like a washing machine, useful, essential even, but utterly bland. Not to mention the damage all this crap does to the planet, in the name of being socially responsible. I'm sure many find this future 'exciting' but it's left me behind.

I'll stick with 70's V8's, polluting though they may be, for as long as it remains logistically and financially feasible. When I do eventually have to buy something 'green', the car will go from being something to aspire to, to a utilitarian box overnight.

Just like the green lobby want.

Edited by superden, 18 March 2015 - 18:54.

[AustinF1]

Nope, Not even close to being true.

 

Also

 

Todays Hybrid technology is worse for the planet than modern combustion engines are.

They are infact very very clean compared to the so called Green tech eco hybrid cars.

 

 

 

....

Yep...the electric car folks sell this neat little bundle that tells everyone electric cars are "green" when nothing could really be further from the truth ... unless you ignore all the nastiness involved in creating and disposing of the batteries, and ignore where most of the energy comes from to charge the batteries, etc...

[Risil]

Yes. But I'd like more emphasis on power than fuel consumption.

[Disgrace]

Yes, if you are talking about F1 having a future in the current political and social climate. Green, whilst questionable in its application when China and India pump crud into the sky, is fashionable, socially and politically.

No, if you are talking on a personal level. I just don't find electric power, hybrids and all that jazz 'interesting'. I admit it, I'm old. I love big noisy engines that burn dinosaurs.

The same applies to road cars. Electric? Batteries? It just does nothing for me. I have always had a passion for cars but the new breed of automobiles just leave me cold. They are like a washing machine, useful, essential even, but utterly bland. I'm sure many find this future 'exciting' but it's left me behind.

I'll stick with 70's V8's, polluting though they may be, for as long as it remains logistically and financially feasible. When I do eventually have to buy something 'green', the car will go from being something to aspire to, to a utilitarian box overnight.

Just like the green lobby want.

 

But this is the racing fan speaking - most people see their cars as utilitarian boxes, and this is a trend that will be accelerated by self-driving cars. So it isn't about what any "green lobby" wants but how the majority of people who aren't motoring enthusiasts, never mind racing fans, see their cars already.

 

If motorsport and green technologies cannot ultimately be reconciled, due to diminished noise/excitement/whatever, then the fact is that motorsport itself doesn't have a future anyway. Perhaps motorsport is a historical quirk made possible by the industrial revolution, a couple of world wars and the invention of the car all occurring within a short space of time.

 

The car is no longer a novelty and once this novelty wears off, whether it's a car, an aeroplane or a computer, we start taking it for granted. At this point, the only time we will think of them consciously is when something goes wrong. 

 

Now do a new poll asking if anyone cares about how much fuel an F1 car uses for a race. I can't fathom how anyone would. These are race cars, it's not like people are watching to compare it's fuel economy with the family car.

 

No, but I think people care about how much fuel the drivers use relative to each other. It's from this that the likes of Alain Prost get their legendary reputations and nicknames. In this case, what the fuel is doesn't matter.

[ocp]

I clicked yes only because of performance.

And I have evolved... I think.

Edited by ocp, 18 March 2015 - 19:13.

[Ben1445]

The fact is that we will need to find a better energy source than burning fossil fuels. And if you don't accept that as fact then with significant evidence that it might be a bad idea to burn fossil fuels than it is worth trying to minimise that risk. 
 

Motorsport has a place in the future if it can be allowed to develop and pioneer new 'green' technologies and make them exciting and mainstream. If not, it really just becomes irrelevant. Just look at the first internal combustion engines; leaving a trail of smoke and the smell of unburnt hydrocarbons. Look at one now; they are pretty darn efficient in comparison. Some new 'green' technologies that may seem bad now have not had the same development. That needs to happen, and motorsport can be a big part of that if people will let it. 

 

[Fastcake]

Yep...the electric car folks sell this neat little bundle that tells everyone electric cars are "green" when nothing could really be further from the truth ... unless you ignore all the nastiness involved in creating and disposing of the batteries, and ignore where most of the energy comes from to charge the batteries, etc...

 

You need to look at the entire ecosystem. The cost of manufacturing and disposing of batteries, not that developing a combustion engine is that environmentally friendly anyway, is far outweighed by the reduction of emissions from the refinement and transport of petrol, and the large increase in air quality in urban areas that will be seen as vehicles switch over.

 

Full electric cars aren't really ready for racing or mass public use, but hybrids are the medium-term future, which is why manufacturers are so keen to be racing them. If hybrids can be seen racing at the same level as a standard internal combustion engine, it certainly helps to sell them.

[BlackCat]

get rid of it ASAP

[superden]

But this is the racing fan speaking - most people see their cars as utilitarian boxes, and this is a trend that will be accelerated by self-driving cars. So it isn't about what any "green lobby" wants but how the majority of people who aren't motoring enthusiasts, never mind racing fans, see their cars already.

And that's the sad part. I grew up at the tail end of car culture in its traditional form and am glad I did. Traffic was light, speed cameras were nonexistent and petrol was (relatively) cheap. Cars were aspirational items and advertising made much of BHP and 0-60 times. Now it's MPG and iPod connectivity. I don't own an iPod, and MPG isn't really relevant, for various reasons.

As for self driving cars, I'd rather just get on a bike and get some exercise. At least you can modify a bike and take pride in owning it. Google cars and their ilk really are the end point of the process of turning the car from a cultural icon, into a wheeled washing machine.

[WalterTrout]

Yes.

 

I'd like to see the reigns taken off these engines though and see another arms race between the manufacturers, especially on the electric side. However, that would probably put the nail in the coffin of the smaller teams.

[Disgrace]

Yep...the electric car folks sell this neat little bundle that tells everyone electric cars are "green" when nothing could really be further from the truth ... unless you ignore all the nastiness involved in creating and disposing of the batteries, and ignore where most of the energy comes from to charge the batteries, etc...

 

This is why there's a third option to the poll. There is a perfectly reasonable school of thought that suggests electric technology isn't the way to go, but hydrogen fuel cells or biofuel for instance.

[ninetyzero]

Hybrid tech is fine in itself, but they should have more freedom. Manufacturers should be able to use different systems and engine configurations (a la WEC). It's too restrictive as it is now. Hybrid and alternative fuel is the future and you can't change that.

[Ferrari2183]

Nay.

The technology is remarkable but it's cost is going to be the straw that broke the camels back. Also, I'm not too sure if F1 is the place to showcase this sort of tech.

[Rasputin]

Nay.

The technology is remarkable but it's cost is going to be the straw that broke the camels back. Also, I'm not too sure if F1 is the place to showcase this sort of tech.

Truer words never spoken.

[SCUDmissile]

yes, because if F1 doesn't move with the times and evolve, it will become a niche dinosaur sport and eventually die out.

 

the tech now in these cars may be in the teams' cars, trucks etc. soon in the future anyways.

 

F1 has, and can lead the way. It shouldn't stop now. (In saying that, other green technologies shouldn't be discounted, any feasible renewable technology's use should be encouraged.)

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7934857.stm

http://www.confused....la-1-technology

Edited by SCUDmissile, 18 March 2015 - 20:32.

[Atreiu]

I voted  F1 should pursue a different form of "green" technology because I would prefer a limitation on the quantities of CO2 emited by race and let the engine manufacturers reach the goal in the way they want. 

 

 

I voted yay but you sugestion makes perfect sense as well. I usually wonder what would happen if they were limited in their fuel and then could attempt whatever solution they desired. But I also think the cars should be a lot lighter than they currently are. Is lightness the most effective way of promoting efficiency? I think.

[Risil]

Nay.

The technology is remarkable but it's cost is going to be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

The straw that broke the camels back isn't an argument against straw!

[Lazy]

I'd love to see turbo with mguh v aspirated with mguh and see which is the most efficient at retrieving that energy from the exhaust gases. The problem with that is the people who going go the wrong route are stuck with a non competitive concept. 

Same goes for all the "any config/fixed energy" ideas. There's too much risk of teams getting stuck with uncompetitive motors with no hope of doing anything about it.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Imagine how far Merc would be ahead if they had done that.

They might not be..

[TecnoRacing]

Some of the best things in life are superflous, 'irrelevant', and somewhat destructive...I would prefer F1 giving up pretensions as far as supposedly leading or contributing to the road car industry, which is obviously moving rapidly to more sterile ends (undertsandably so.) Time to let them go their own way - I think F1's relevance has always been overtstated (by the marketeers, and those who have a compulsive need to put a purpose on all things) There will always be things to learn and trickle down from esquisite engineering under extreme conditions.

[Shambolic]

Now do a new poll asking if anyone cares about how much fuel an F1 car uses for a race. I can't fathom how anyone would.

 

I do. I think an engineering contest based on extracting the ultimate performace from a ruleset, should be focused on every aspect of performance gains - And that includes carrying less weight. Fuel is weight, so the less of it you can use (some of which goes purely into the act of carrying its own weight) whilst maintaining performance, the better. This is why teams, even with limited fuel allowance, are still under-fuelling and resorting to fuel saving at times in a race. It's quite simply faster overall to go slower at times, as juxtaposed as that sounds.

 

Plus, from a resource perspective it makes no sense to me to piss away a finite resource for no other reason than "Because we can". Yes, you can argue every activity other than sleep, eat and reproduce is frivolous, but we can still find a balance between quality of life and quantity of resources spent. So as long as F1 is fossil (not moon juice, ffs) fuel based, why not look to using technology, even developing technologies, that can go racing on less of a resource binge?