131 replies to this topic

[Kalmake]

WEC has this equivalency chart for hybrid vs non-hybrid. Accounting for fuel efficiency, hybrids get slightly more energy output per lap if they are able to use all the allowance. And obviously they need less pit stops.

[sergey1308]

It should and it always will be. Not just F1, motorsport in general.

Absolutely agree, Formula 1 only as a marketing is about Red Bull. For car manufacturers, for example for Renault Sport department motorsport is about technology, competition and marketing of course too.

[Ali_G]

Nope, Not even close to being true.

Also

Todays Hybrid technology is worse for the planet than modern combustion engines are.
They are infact very very clean compared to the so called Green tech eco hybrid cars.



BTW for those who think Crude oil are from Fossils.
There is a Moon around a Planet in our solar System that have OCEANS of oil on it.
Where did all that oil came from?

It's a Well known fact within the industry that oil does not come from Fossils.
If that was really the case, then we would have run out of oil Long long long time ago.
BTW they found oil fields that hold more oil in them then what have been burnt up by us Humans in our short history on this planet.
So we wont be running out of oil in a very long time.

Fan of the "History Channel" perchance ?

[chrisPB15]

"Renault Sport department motorsport is about technology,"

 

I noticed that after-market motorcycle exhaust manufacture Akrapovic have cozied up to Renault Sport and you can now get a carbon, titanium pipe hanging out the back of your RS with the "Akrapovic sound"

This is backwards thinking and nothing to do with technology.  Noisy exhausts are just an ego massage and should never have become the defining part of F1's spectacle. Akrapovic exhausts are a "look at me" fashion accessory for insecure males  with a 5-10HP gain in power that is pathetic to what Renault Sport can gain when they tinker.

 

You take other noisy motor-sports and they all have something going for them to add to the spectacle rather than relying on noise,  jumps, sliding, crushing, flames, sparks, smell. Formula One should be about the actual racing and the technology. I watch F1 when it's boring because I admire the technology and the way F1 teams work.

 

Electric motors are vastly more efficient and give better performance with better low down torque and an even torque range giving superior drive-ability.   Colin Chapman wouldn't have turned them down if the rules had allowed and of course the battery problem had been solved back then.

 

Having said all that, Formula One may as well use monster truck engines to keep the whinging fans quiet, because the only problem that needs solving for road cars, is at least doubling the battery density. (companies are currently hard at work on this)

Electric motorcycles have come a long way in a short space of time, and now have the fastest production machine with superior handling to boot.

 

http://lightningmotorcycle.com/

 

So they may as well return F1 to a noisy inefficiency Formula, with basic engines that everyone can understand, than to waste millions on half way house hybrid technology that wont be needed once batteries are improved.

 

http://www.gizmag.co...nterview/36506/

 

Edited by chrisPB15, 20 March 2015 - 10:00.

[Wuzak]

F1 has had KERS since 2009 so it did happen without the new F1 engines. And we've had some good racing since 2009. If F1's stakeholders want it to survive, I guess it's a matter of knowing how to pick their battles. KERS IMO has been a good addition to F1 and also a good contribution to road-cars without sacrificing racing.  Current fuel saving however is damaging racing so why not leave that aspect of research to the labs or test tracks?

 

Fuel saving has been a feature of F1 since 2010.

 

Tyre preservation since Pirelli started as well.

 

But if you look back in time, the period before refuelling was re-introduced also had fuel saving and tyre saving. More particularly in the turbo era, where there was a fuel tank size limit.

 

It may be due to the increased coverage with the availability of pit communications that the viewing public is more aware of this situation.

 

Of course last season there was very little fuel saving required at most tracks. There are a few, like Australia and Russia, which are heavy on fuel usage. That number may increase with the faster pace of the cars this year, but that has to be offset with the knowledge that at some races there were teams underfilling their cars deliberately.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

I'm going to ask a purely hypothetical question. Imagine one day I show up at your door, with tickets for four people to two completely different events, the travel and event time is exactly the same. You can only pick one, the limo is sitting there waiting. One event is a solar power race, and other is the X games. Travis Pastrama is booked and he's going to compete.

 

 

Let's cut to the chase and ignore the distractions. People watch racing because first and foremost it's exciting. Let's not pretend otherwise, when something exciting or dramatic happens in a race, forums get flooded with lots of traffic. If someone ekes out better fuel mileage, how many posts will there be?  When the race gets boring, people switch off.

 

When the cars take to the starting line and the red lights go out, what is occupying your mind, what's going to happen in turn one, or who is going to get the best fuel mileage?

 

 

How may of you are Lewis Hamilton fans? Were you drawn to him because he's a bold, talented and exciting driver or was it the fact that he is very good on fuel mileage? The truth is, it's because he's exciting, the fact that he's efficient is used only to bolster any arguments.

 

Motor racing, and thus Formula One, is a socially irresponsible activity that burns up resources for zero environmental or social gain. It's fun, it's foolish, it's entertaining, it's even stupid, never lose sight of that.

 

For many weird and perverse reasons Formula One has been tied to the auto industry, we get all the advertising propaganda that they are connected. But one day, eventually Formula One will die. And it will be before the last car rolls off the production line.

 

Screw it all, we need more younger fans drawn into the sport, it should be about adrenaline and excitement. The bodywork hides all the cool technology, and if I want to see even more superior technology on display, I go to the airport and watch the airliners take off. Take the friggen rules book, retain all the safety stuff, write in the requirement to meet current emissions laws, and chuck all the rest in the trash bin.

 

As spectators and fans we watch the X games, football, whatever, not because of any social responsibility but for the sole reason that it entertains us.

[sopa]

Yay. There is no doubt green technology is the future in the grand scheme of things. But on a smaller scale, as seen, there is a huge conflict in motorsports and also among traditional motorsport enthusiasts, who are used to valuing different things. I must admit, the sound issue last year also caught me in nostalgia of past eras, though I think step-by-step I am getting used to the new era.

 

Also there is the issue of cars (including motorsports) generating lesser interest among people than in the past. I think we are in a critical crossover point, but it needs to be done in order to survive. How and in which form does it survive - interesting times ahead! Sure enough, many will not like the results. It is like in politics. You choose a strategy to lead the country, but there are always people, usually a pretty significant opposition, who disagree with it.

[sopa]

 

 

 

Pretty creative and almost surreal picture I have to say. Now that the Formula E series has been inaugurated, perhaps an idea to president Todt as the next big innovative project to start working on.

[superden]

F1, motorsport and cars in general need, like anything, to offer you something in order to maintain your interest. Now, alongside that, is the inescapable fact that time marches on, things change and not always in a way you might like.

There is no point fighting the tide, unless you enjoy being a martyr and fairly miserable all the time. At some point, the majority of things will fade from your focus of interest.

For now, F1 still holds my interest, though for many reasons this is being eroded over time. When it no longer fulfils its purpose, I will let it be, move on and find something else. I won't miss it, as by that point it is no longer of interest. I might miss what it was, but that is something else entirely. This is just the way of things.

[johnmhinds]

I'd much watch that solar powered car race over watching Travis Pastrana doing to back flips.

[bobellsmore]

The great thing about F1 - from a purely engineering point of view - is the incredibly rapid rate of progress that it is capable of. When KERS was first brought in, Mercedes used its road-car knowledge. Within less than a year, the F1 version was was much lighter, more efficient and more powerful. The knowledge gained HAS to have influenced the road-car development.

 

At the end of the day, F1 regulations are there to a) ensure a level playing field and b) stop the cars getting too fast. (it's much cheaper to slow the cars down than beef up the circuits.)

 

I hate the talk of increasing the fuel allowance to enable the "1000hp" cars. When you think that the cars are now going faster on 2/3rds of the fuel they had 2 years ago, the mind just boggles.

 

It would be interesting to consider an F1 regulation that limited fuel usage to say 90kg now, reducing by a fixed percentage (5% maybe?), each year with all other regulations covering safety and appearance only. Mind you, the FIA would have to reserve the right the reduce the allowance faster than that if they deemed it necessary. What price Adrian Newey with a free hand plus Brixworth limited only by the amount of fuel allowed between pit-exit and parc ferme?

[RealRacing]

Fuel saving has been a feature of F1 since 2010.

 

Tyre preservation since Pirelli started as well.

 

But if you look back in time, the period before refuelling was re-introduced also had fuel saving and tyre saving. More particularly in the turbo era, where there was a fuel tank size limit.

 

It may be due to the increased coverage with the availability of pit communications that the viewing public is more aware of this situation.

 

Of course last season there was very little fuel saving required at most tracks. There are a few, like Australia and Russia, which are heavy on fuel usage. That number may increase with the faster pace of the cars this year, but that has to be offset with the knowledge that at some races there were teams underfilling their cars deliberately.

I was referring to current fuel saving, 2014 and 2015. I'm well aware drivers had to save fuel in other F1 eras, but it was never a built-in objective of the rules. So, the paradigm was never, "F1 cars have to be fuel efficient"; they just had to be because of the limitations of the formula in those times and the way they chose to design their cars. In any case, if it existed or exists today, I think it takes away from the potential show. If they want to limit costs and that they don't want them to use all the fuel they want, set realistic limits so that drivers can push as much as they want/need during the race. It'll only increase the likelihood of better racing and make drivers and fans happier.

 

Same with tyres. Tyre preservation has been a factor in F1 long before Pirelli, but it has never affected racing so much, at least as the first couple of years with Pirelli. Different compounds and strategies are ok (although I'd like to see the one tyre set per GP tried again), but that is far from making the tyres a defining factor in all or most races. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of unlimited development and completely open rules and I would like to see the idea of refueling buried for ever.  But it does bother me a lot that they are curtailing what for me is the essence of this sport, racing, in order to fulfill the manufacturers' agenda. Make it more balanced towards drivers and racing as the main focus and things will be fine.

[Ben1445]

It's always felt to me that having limited in season testing and therefore development has actually been a big issue to this.

When do some people say F1's decline started? 2008. That might not be a coincidence, that's when testing stopped.
If you start the season with a car that's a bit behind the winners there is little opportunity with engine freezing and track testing highly controlled to actually put in the development hours to catch up. Only problem with that is that increases the budgets massively and you're back to square one. 

[Lazy]

Yes but not on the expense of the sound and emotions. The mistake they made with these engines is that they are just build by engineers and not by people who actually love F1 and/or understand the needs of the fans.

The same happens if companies put engineers in sales/marketing positions. They are clever guys but they have absolutey no idea about business.

Sacrilege.

[Giz]

Fuel was hardly even a problem and barely mentioned last year - are they fuel saving because they need to or are they just starting under fuelled on purpose to save weight?

[Lee Nicolle]

I'm going to ask a purely hypothetical question. Imagine one day I show up at your door, with tickets for four people to two completely different events, the travel and event time is exactly the same. You can only pick one, the limo is sitting there waiting. One event is a solar power race, and other is the X games. Travis Pastrama is booked and he's going to compete.

 

 

Let's cut to the chase and ignore the distractions. People watch racing because first and foremost it's exciting. Let's not pretend otherwise, when something exciting or dramatic happens in a race, forums get flooded with lots of traffic. If someone ekes out better fuel mileage, how many posts will there be?  When the race gets boring, people switch off.

 

When the cars take to the starting line and the red lights go out, what is occupying your mind, what's going to happen in turn one, or who is going to get the best fuel mileage?

 

 

How may of you are Lewis Hamilton fans? Were you drawn to him because he's a bold, talented and exciting driver or was it the fact that he is very good on fuel mileage? The truth is, it's because he's exciting, the fact that he's efficient is used only to bolster any arguments.

 

Motor racing, and thus Formula One, is a socially irresponsible activity that burns up resources for zero environmental or social gain. It's fun, it's foolish, it's entertaining, it's even stupid, never lose sight of that.

 

For many weird and perverse reasons Formula One has been tied to the auto industry, we get all the advertising propaganda that they are connected. But one day, eventually Formula One will die. And it will be before the last car rolls off the production line.

 

Screw it all, we need more younger fans drawn into the sport, it should be about adrenaline and excitement. The bodywork hides all the cool technology, and if I want to see even more superior technology on display, I go to the airport and watch the airliners take off. Take the friggen rules book, retain all the safety stuff, write in the requirement to meet current emissions laws, and chuck all the rest in the trash bin.

 

As spectators and fans we watch the X games, football, whatever, not because of any social responsibility but for the sole reason that it entertains us.

Will F1 even be around next year?  Tracks being dropped, literally half the teams in some sort of difficulty and probably the worst race in several years in Melbourne. Boring to watch and boring to listen too. And so stupidly expensive. = self destruct!  Oh and most of the races are on pay TV!!

So the tech heads can have their electric motors,, go play with Formula E which is a travesty on motorsport.

[Ben1445]

Will F1 even be around next year?  Tracks being dropped, literally half the teams in some sort of difficulty and probably the worst race in several years in Melbourne. Boring to watch and boring to listen too. And so stupidly expensive. = self destruct!  Oh and most of the races are on pay TV!!

So the tech heads can have their electric motors,, go play with Formula E which is a travesty on motorsport.

Formula E...a travesty?! Really?!

[Lazy]

Will F1 even be around next year?  Tracks being dropped, literally half the teams in some sort of difficulty and probably the worst race in several years in Melbourne. Boring to watch and boring to listen too. And so stupidly expensive. = self destruct!  Oh and most of the races are on pay TV!!

So the tech heads can have their electric motors,, go play with Formula E which is a travesty on motorsport.

F1 is, and always has been, a "techhead" sport. There are plenty of series that cater for the more superficially minded.

 

I personally resent attempts to "dumb down" F1 because being a techhead sport has made it into the most prestigious series in Motorsport.

[Tourgott]

Fuel was hardly even a problem 

 

Fuel was a huge problem. Nico Hulkenberg explained in German television how lift & coast works, how often he has to do it (almost every turn) and how much slower he is because of it.

Edited by Tourgott, 21 March 2015 - 09:01.

[Hyatt]

"Renault Sport department motorsport is about technology,"

 

I noticed that after-market motorcycle exhaust manufacture Akrapovic have cozied up to Renault Sport and you can now get a carbon, titanium pipe hanging out the back of your RS with the "Akrapovic sound"

This is backwards thinking and nothing to do with technology.  Noisy exhausts are just an ego massage and should never have become the defining part of F1's spectacle. Akrapovic exhausts are a "look at me" fashion accessory for insecure males  with a 5-10HP gain in power that is pathetic to what Renault Sport can gain when they tinker.

 

You take other noisy motor-sports and they all have something going for them to add to the spectacle rather than relying on noise,  jumps, sliding, crushing, flames, sparks, smell. Formula One should be about the actual racing and the technology. I watch F1 when it's boring because I admire the technology and the way F1 teams work.

 

Electric motors are vastly more efficient and give better performance with better low down torque and an even torque range giving superior drive-ability.   Colin Chapman wouldn't have turned them down if the rules had allowed and of course the battery problem had been solved back then.

 

 

 100% agree

[Burtros]

I completely changed my view on technology and F1 last year.

 

Bottom line it this, the hybrid technology is all kept secret as much as possible. We cant see it. It doesn't make the racing more exciting - I honestly don't care if an F1 car does a race on 100kg of fuel or 150kg of fuel.

 

What I do care about is not knowing which team is going to win before a race weekend has even started. I blame the overly complicated hybrid technology for creating such massive gaps between the teams and basically, making the sport very dull.

[BRK]

Funny thing. Five years ago I'd have said hell no. Being a purist (of sorts), saw F1 as the last bastion untouched by greenisms (despite having always been pro-envi myself). Got to change with the times, though. Definitely an 'aye' on this one.

[Gyno]

For anyone who got 30min and wanna LEARN something.

 

From the Co funder of Greenpeace on Climate change.

 

https://www.youtube....tcNjoDe5Pg#t=59

[Kalmake]

For anyone who got 30min and wanna LEARN something.

 

From the Co funder of Greenpeace on Climate change.

 

https://www.youtube....tcNjoDe5Pg#t=59

"The International Conference on Climate Change is a conference series organized and sponsored by The Heartland Institute. The Heartland Institute is an American conservative and libertarian public policy think tank."

 

For further learning head to http://en.wikipedia....e_change_denial

[MikeV1987]

For anyone who got 30min and wanna LEARN something.

 

From the Co funder of Greenpeace on Climate change.

 

https://www.youtube....tcNjoDe5Pg#t=59

 

Seen this today on reddit, interesting stuff...

[KnucklesAgain]

Nope, Not even close to being true.

 

Also

 

Todays Hybrid technology is worse for the planet than modern combustion engines are.

They are infact very very clean compared to the so called Green tech eco hybrid cars.

 

 

 

BTW for those who think Crude oil are from Fossils.

There is a Moon around a Planet in our solar System that have OCEANS of oil on it.

Where did all that oil came from?

 

It's a Well known fact within the industry that oil does not come from Fossils.

If that was really the case, then we would have run out of oil Long long long time ago.

BTW they found oil fields that hold more oil in them then what have been burnt up by us Humans in our short history on this planet.

So we wont be running out of oil in a very long time.

 

Seems to me that where oil comes from and whether we will run out of oil has little to do with the question of what happens to the global climate when we burn lots of it and put is carbon into the atmosphere.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 22 March 2015 - 19:58.

[LORDBYRON]

I'd much watch that Formula E

[Jvr]

Here is a nice history story of F1 engines over all time by Michael Schmidt of AMuS (in German):

 

http://www.auto-moto...er-9335521.html

[Clatter]

Yes - a version of KERS is filtering down to road cars and hopefully a MGU-H variation will also in the future. I'd prefer more efficiency and trickle down technology is beneficial to all rather than a technology that is only ever going to be used within the F1 circle. 

 

Look at the La Ferrari and McLaren hybrids. That is KERS working to increase power and lower emissions to get to EU regs.

None of which will be thanks to F1. This is all technology that the car manufacturers have been working on, and introducing, before F1 started using it. 

[Jamiednm]

I don't have an issue with hybrid technology in F1. I just don't like the artificial way the sport goes about it.

 

They use it as a marketing exercise (literally in Mercedes' case) to say 'Our hybrids dominate the worlds race tracks and your roads', with a picture of a W05 next to an S Class. Totally superficial, there is no link.

 

It needs to be a natural process. If F1 wanted to be truly road-relevant on such a big issue like hybrid technology, then there should be an open engine formula that would lead to teams creating all sorts of different power unit configurations, ultimately leading to greater efficiency - whether that's hybrids or super efficient ICEs. That would surely produce innovations that could naturally be adopted by the road car industry so that we all benefit from higher MPG and lower emissions. At the same time, the F1 cars shouldn't be stymied by fuel flow limits etc. So what if a road car doesn't rev to 17,000RPM. An F1 car shouldn't be concerned with that, but if it can rev to 17,000RPM and return excellent fuel consumption, then the principle thinking behind how that is achievable can surely be passed down to the automotive industry.

 

I'm not concerned about F1 cars and motorsports in general creating all sorts of carbon emissions each race weekend. An entire F1 season in that regard is insignificant next to one day worth of traffic in Shanghai for example. If F1 creates loads of emissions while learning how to make their cars more fuel efficient (and as a by-product, more environmentally friendly through hybrid innovations), then it will be worth it when these innovations are passed on to mass production road cars.

[superden]

Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

The implementation of this concept may have changed somewhat, but for the manufacturers it still holds as true today as it did then. Is the current hybrid technology really road relevant? Not for most car buyers. Is it marketed as road relevant? Yes, the S Class advert noted above shows that it aids sales, brand positioning and identity more than anything else and provides the manufacturers with a tangible return for their investment.

Nothing is new under the sun.

[SenorSjon]

I voted no, because I think making it mandatory is the wrong way. IF someone can make good use of it, then by all means. But not the predefined MGU-xyz we have now.

 

 

If you don't want hybrid then you don't want car manufacturers

I really can't see Merc, Renault and Honda or even Ferrari making a 'normal' engine just for F1

 

We had seven of them in the V10 era and now 3.1, what progress? Car manufacturers are fickle beings. They got us in this mess in the first place with all the hybrid tinkering.

 

BTW:

Renault makes normal race engines for WSR and GP2.

Mercedes makes normal race engines for F3.

Honda makes normal race engines in MotoGP.

Ferrari makes normal race engines for GT.