80 replies to this topic

[HamiltonFanboy]

Button and its not even close. If you remember how bad he was back in the Benetton days then he can be the only answer. He was solid in his first season yes but I would argue up until 2009 no one considered him a top driver. What went unnoticed by most people was a solid state of improvement throughout the BAR years, starting with beating Villeneuve, dominating Sato and then slightly outperforming Barrichello. Still though after 2007 and 2008 he was still only a "good" driver. 2009 and the following years vs Hamilton he took himself to a new level. I would argue Button has been through 3 fairly significant stages of improvement as a driver.

 

Massa on the other hand has only ever been average. Always beaten by the top drivers, fairly close to the average drivers and ahead of the poor drivers. Yes he used to crash all the time but even now he still has the ability to do really stupid things. As a driver he was flattered by 2 years driving superb Ferrari cars against an overrated(at the time) team-mate who was having difficulty with the car. His year preceding the 2007/2008 Ferrari vs Schumi showed his level of talent. His years after vs Alonso confirmed that level of talent. There was no improvement.

[sopa]

Well, when I made my post I used debut as the basis for comparison. Which is 2007 for Vettel and 2000 for Button. I'd say in this comparison it is a close call. And sure enough Button had way more hype around him in 2000 than Vettel had in 2007 before the wet weather races...

 

But if Button's 2001 were used as the yardstick, then yeah - I'd also have to vote for Button here. That was a serious dip in performance.

[Kyo]

Massa has always done poor in traffic and well outside of it. So no surprise why people believe he improved tremendously when he had a top car and would face very little traffic compared to when he had a midfield car and why he seemed to be a way better driver in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm not sure how Hamilton qualifies.  He was within two points of being a champion in his first ever season, with Alonso as his teammate.  Sure, he rounded out the rough edges, but all drivers do.

 

Except Massa.  I'm not at all sold that he improved all that much.  He still seems unreliable, inconsistent, and to be blunt, dumb as a rock.  Yes, he had a good season in 2008, but a lot of mediocre drivers can look good in fast cars that suit their driving style.

 

It seems like Button clearly takes this.  He went from being considered a good but second tier driver, to an almost champion caliber driver.  His 2009 year can be written off in much the same way that Massa's 2008 year can be, but he backed it up with repeat performances later on.

[sabjit]

I thought his 2009 had moments of true greatness.

[Kyo]

What I find curious is that IMO any of the newer drivers (Ricciardo, Grosjean, Maldonado, Hulkenberg, Perez) improved more in 4 years than any of the drivers in the poll improved in more than 7 years.

[George Costanza]

Mika Hakkinen needs credit.

[FerrariV12]

Mika Hakkinen needs credit.

 

He qualified that box of a Lotus 13th (out of 34) on his debut, scored points in his third race, and generally outpaced Herbert (no slouch) over his first two years. His ability was there for all to see before he got into a McLaren.

Edited by FerrariV12, 23 March 2015 - 00:06.

[TheCaptain]

I think JB always showed glimpses of his talent, but by his own admission in the Benetton days was a bit of playboy and not the dedicated driver he is now.

[ensign14]

Amazed anyone can vote for anyone other than Massa.  All the others have obvious massive talent before coming to F1 and had stellar records in their respective formulae.  Massa's one championship came in a series in which Adam Khan once came 3rd.  Not in a race, in the championship.  And remember his first season with Sauber?  At times he did de Cesaris proud.

[Lotusseven]

It´s easy to improve if you have the best car on the grid, and perhaps difficult when FIA/FOM change the rules and regulations now and then. 

So for me it´s impossible to vote. I also think everybody improve (themselves as a person, not necessarily as a driver) and learn new knowledge every year.

[Lotusseven]

Amazed anyone can vote for anyone other than Massa.  All the others have obvious massive talent before coming to F1 and had stellar records in their respective formulae.  Massa's one championship came in a series in which Adam Khan once came 3rd.  Not in a race, in the championship.  And remember his first season with Sauber?  At times he did de Cesaris proud.

 

Agreed. Massa isn´t much to hang in the christmas tree imo. What he has improved his psyche. 

[HoldenRT]

Hamilton. Yes, he was quick from the off, but he was making a lot of mistakes which he ironed out throughout the years. I don't remember the beginnings of Massa and Button's careers so can't judge them.

 

Did you see Hungary first lap last year?  Or Austrian GP qualifying?  If he makes less mistakes now (relative to then) how must they have been at the start of his career to be an improvement?

 

To me, he started out as a top driver from the first races of his career, with some mistakes but a great raw pace and he's still a top driver with a great raw pace.. so yeah.

 

I find this a really hard question to answer to be honest, it's a really good question.

 

Button impressed me more in his BAR days, than anything in Brawn or McLaren so not sure where that puts him.  He's always been a smooth safe, calculated driver but also with great raw pace in the right situation (and poor pace at other times).  Not sure if he's any better now (other than being more mature as a person overall).  He seemed to drive a really mature season last year, but hard to compare that against a rookie teammate and to know where the car would have been with Lewis alongside or someone else.

 

Nico arguably was better in his first race than anything since.  Set fastest lap with numerous overtakes after a first corner accident, recovering to points position and setting fastest lap in Cosworth powered Williams (while they were declining).  Nico's always been a good solid driver, except maybe lacking a little speed or killer instinct that sets him apart as one of the top top drivers.  There's never been many weaknesses with Nico though.

 

Kimi impressed me most in his McLaren days.  2007 and 2008 were hard to take as a Kimi fan, and it wasn't a surprise to me that he left the sport afterwards.

 

I don't remember much of Alonso's early years but by 2004 onwards he seemed quite solid and since 2005 (with the top car challenging championships), has seemed to stay at a really high reliable level year after year.  Regardless of the car he is driving.

 

Vettel started out really strong at STR and that continued into Redbull.  Mistakes or pace didn't ever seem a problem, the one criticism was that he couldn't overtake but during 2012 onwards people stopped saying that.  By the end of 2013, no one could say anything about his overtaking anymore.  And then last year.. hard to fit that in to everything else.  Separate from the car's pace there were plenty of things, errors etc.. to criticise.  Vettel had suddenly morphed into Webber.. was bizarre to watch.  And also very ironic, given the years earlier.  If it were before last season, maybe Vettel would be a contender for most improved?  But it was only really the overtaking that improved.

 

So I guess that leaves Massa.  If everyone keeps saying Massa.. maybe they are onto something.

[HoldenRT]

What I find curious is that IMO any of the newer drivers (Ricciardo, Grosjean, Maldonado, Hulkenberg, Perez) improved more in 4 years than any of the drivers in the poll improved in more than 7 years.

 

IMO the cars are easier to drive now and it's easier to come into the sport and be on the right level.  Or if you aren't on the right level, it's easier to catch up.  A big part of that is the fuel saving during races and managing tyres, but also other factors.  The aero is so advanced, the cars are so planted.  With DRS, there is less risks and impatience and more chance for all cars to finish races and also higher reliability.

 

The lack of testing is hard on them but in pretty much every other way, it's easier.  So it's hard to compare eras IMO.  For example entering the sport in 2002, or 2005, or even 2007 or 2008 like Lewis and Seb did.  Don't think Verstappen could have walked into F1 at the age he is, if he had entered during those seasons.
 

[Baddoer]

Grosjean?

[Nemo1965]

What I find curious is that IMO any of the newer drivers (Ricciardo, Grosjean, Maldonado, Hulkenberg, Perez) improved more in 4 years than any of the drivers in the poll improved in more than 7 years.

 

The reason I took seven years is seven-fold, haha. In ye old days F1 careers took about seven years. Furthermore: in seven years a driver probably has had a bad car, an okay car, a good car and a great car. What I find satisfying about this thread is that because of the limitation posters really post good explanations about their choice...

 

The drivers you mention: we can't really judge how much they improved, or: even less than the drivers that included in this poll. I stand by my choice as OP.

 

EDIT: Reading your post, perhaps I took it totally the wrong way. You meant perhaps: curious as in 'intriguing'?

Edited by Nemo1965, 23 March 2015 - 07:50.

[aramos]

Did you see Hungary first lap last year?  Or Austrian GP qualifying?  If he makes less mistakes now (relative to then) how must they have been at the start of his career to be an improvement?

 

Those are really the only two errors he made all season. Which in the context of an F1 driver is actually very quite low. Neither of them were race ending errors either.

 

Compare that to 2009 and 2011 when he would regularly get tangled in on track collisions with other driver, and at times (monza 2009, china 2007) just completely lose the car on his own resulting in non finishes. Hamilton is a much more mature driver now than back in those days its quite clear.

 

Meanwhile Massa, I dunno, he seems as bad as ever. He had quite a few collisions last season that could be avoided. Canada and Germany spring to mind but I'm sure there are more.

[Nemo1965]

Those are really the only two errors he made all season. Which in the context of an F1 driver is actually very quite low. Neither of them were race ending errors either.

 

Compare that to 2009 and 2011 when he would regularly get tangled in on track collisions with other driver, and at times (monza 2009, china 2007) just completely lose the car on his own resulting in non finishes. Hamilton is a much more mature driver now than back in those days its quite clear.

 

Meanwhile Massa, I dunno, he seems as bad as ever. He had quite a few collisions last season that could be avoided. Canada and Germany spring to mind but I'm sure there are more.

 

Funny. My idea is: when a drivers makes a mistake, for me that is less important than how he deals with that mistake. Hamilton in the years 2008-2011 often reacted foolishly after he had a stroke of bad luck, by his own making or not. What I find him improved in, is exactly that. Mistakes or bad luck does not seem to throw him of the rails anymore.

[tifosiMac]

I voted Hamilton because I think his racing head has matured massively over the past 3 years. 

[The Kanisteri]

Sebastian Vettel,

 

He came to BMW-Sauber as 3rd driver and when Kubica got injured he scored point in first GP as substitute driver. Next two seasons there were learning curve at midfield team Toro Rosso which brought him decent points, pole position and GP victory - with Toro Rosso!

Next seasons with Red Bull he and team came from midfield to regular race winners and gained 4 world championships. Still there are people who taunt he need to prove himself.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Sebastian Vettel,

 

He came to BMW-Sauber as 3rd driver and when Kubica got injured he scored point in first GP as substitute driver. Next two seasons there were learning curve at midfield team Toro Rosso which brought him decent points, pole position and GP victory - with Toro Rosso!

Next seasons with Red Bull he and team came from midfield to regular race winners and gained 4 world championships. Still there are people who taunt he need to prove himself.

Vettel is definitely talented, it's just that many people think he overperformed for his talent level.  As a driver he isn't quite up there with Hamilton or Alonso, but he has the same championship total as the two of them combined.

[Imateria]

For me it's a tough choice between Massa and Button.

 

Massa was occasionally quick, often error prone in his first year, to the point were Viellneuve said he couldn't drive in a straight line after the British GP. Yet by 2007 he was regularly challenging for wins and holding his own against Raikkonen. The problem here though is that there was still a few times when he would be accident prone or just anonymous (Silverstone and Spa 2008 come to mind) and after his return from injury he let his head drop really badly. I know he was never really going to beat Alonso on anything other than an irregular basis but sometimes tha gap between them was enormous, though since the second half of last year there does appear to be signs he's getting back to his best.

 

With Button he came into the sport too early, just wasn't ready for it. The 2000 Williams was a decent car and he was able to show several really good performances but the 2001 Benetton really showed how far off he was from being ready for it and was well behind Fisichella in getting the best from that car for most of the year. But his rate of improvement was huge, he generally had the measure of Trulli for much of 2002, wiped the floor with Viellneuve and Sato, had a good advantage over Barichello for 3 of their 4 years together (2008 being the odd year out) and then showed really well against Hamilton for their 3 years together when most predicted he'd be destroyed.

 

With the others, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso all started out from a really high level of personal performance so though they have got better, it's not been by as much as others since they were starting from a higher level. I would include Raikkonen in that as well but I get the feeling he peaked 10 years ago with his 2005 performance, I haven't seen him regularly drive at that level since then. Rosberg started out well and has improved a good deal but I don't think it's as much as the others.

 

I think Button gets it, mainly because he was starting from a much lower position than almost everyone else on this list.

[ensign14]

The all-time winner of the category incidentally has to be Lauda.  In 1972, everyone beat him; in 1975, he beat everyone.

[Nemo1965]

The all-time winner of the category incidentally has to be Lauda.  In 1972, everyone beat him; in 1975, he beat everyone.

 

I was ahead of you Ensign... See page 1. But I agree: it was shocking to read afterwards how slow he was in his first season of F1, especially compared to his teammate Ronnie Peterson... who was probably the least improving driver of all time, during his career. 

 

I have to say that arguments in favour of Felipe Massa do strike a chord. I had forgotten how meagre his pre-F1 record was and how erratic his driving before he became Ferrari's testdriver...

[RealRacing]

Is this another Alonso consolation thread?

[Blundle]

Button and its not even close. If you remember how bad he was back in the Benetton days then he can be the only answer. He was solid in his first season yes but I would argue up until 2009 no one considered him a top driver. What went unnoticed by most people was a solid state of improvement throughout the BAR years, starting with beating Villeneuve, dominating Sato and then slightly outperforming Barrichello. Still though after 2007 and 2008 he was still only a "good" driver. 2009 and the following years vs Hamilton he took himself to a new level. I would argue Button has been through 3 fairly significant stages of improvement as a driver.

 

Massa on the other hand has only ever been average. Always beaten by the top drivers, fairly close to the average drivers and ahead of the poor drivers. Yes he used to crash all the time but even now he still has the ability to do really stupid things. As a driver he was flattered by 2 years driving superb Ferrari cars against an overrated(at the time) team-mate who was having difficulty with the car. His year preceding the 2007/2008 Ferrari vs Schumi showed his level of talent. His years after vs Alonso confirmed that level of talent. There was no improvement.

From 2003 onwards he was very impressive. His performances in the recalcitrant Honda in 07 were especially good.

 

Button himself has said he came in to F1 too young but the signs were there from very early on at that he had the requisite talent. One season of FFord and one of British F3  was insufficient and incomparable to the preparation Hamilton and Alonso had.  

[Nemo1965]

From 2003 onwards he was very impressive. His performances in the recalcitrant Honda in 07 were especially good.

 

Button himself has said he came in to F1 too young but the signs were there from very early on at that he had the requisite talent. One season of FFord and one of British F3  was insufficient and incomparable to the preparation Hamilton and Alonso had.  

 

Good of you to remind us of that.

[RubberKubrick]

With Button it's also an anomaly that he is or remains the only one (unless Rosberg proves the opposite) who could achieve a WDC, although he belongs to the drivers who needed more than 100 GPs to get his first GP win...

Button is "strange"...

[bc681]

I'm not sure how Hamilton qualifies.  He was within two points of being a champion in his first ever season, with Alonso as his teammate.  Sure, he rounded out the rough edges, but all drivers do.

 

Except Massa.  I'm not at all sold that he improved all that much.  He still seems unreliable, inconsistent, and to be blunt, dumb as a rock.  Yes, he had a good season in 2008, but a lot of mediocre drivers can look good in fast cars that suit their driving style.

 

It seems like Button clearly takes this.  He went from being considered a good but second tier driver, to an almost champion caliber driver.  His 2009 year can be written off in much the same way that Massa's 2008 year can be, but he backed it up with repeat performances later on.

 

 

?????

 

Almost champion?

Edited by bc681, 23 March 2015 - 16:49.

[Kyo]

The reason I took seven years is seven-fold, haha. In ye old days F1 careers took about seven years. Furthermore: in seven years a driver probably has had a bad car, an okay car, a good car and a great car. What I find satisfying about this thread is that because of the limitation posters really post good explanations about their choice...

 

The drivers you mention: we can't really judge how much they improved, or: even less than the drivers that included in this poll. I stand by my choice as OP.

 

EDIT: Reading your post, perhaps I took it totally the wrong way. You meant perhaps: curious as in 'intriguing'?

Yeap. I meant curious as intriguing. But now that i gave more thought, the lack of testing is the obvious reason for that.

[Nemo1965]

After more than 200 votes, the verdict of the posters is: Jenson Button, with Felipe Massa running a close second. Thank you for contributing, it was an interesting read. I think I am going to watch some old footage of Button and Massa...