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McLaren-Honda MP4-30 III


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#101 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 15:36

Heh.

 

HONDAPU22 ‏@hondapu22

I hear we've arrived @JensonButton. Spiffing, I do hate traveling.

 

How English  :p



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#102 Newbrray

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 15:37

I'm interested in your thinking on this one, why will they not be able to develop their aero and mechanical package as quickly? 

 

I could be wrong but I think he's referring to the fact that whatever aero updates they have to bolt on has to be run at the maximum potential of the car so they can establish future development paths, without the engine running at 100% the car is not at full potential, this might limit full effects on aero parts and increase risk if they decide on a development path based on that.

 

The engine issues will need to be sorted first and then bolt on other aero stuff

 

I thinks its the same way most teams approach testing, come with the base car, establish reliability and behaviour under race trim and qualy sims and then establish development path based on where you are lacking or where you feel can be improved. Without running the car in full angst you never know what the true potential or lack of there really is.

 

As I said , I could be wrong and he meant something totally different to what i just said



#103 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 15:44

Cornering speeds would be most informative, surely? You could have higher lateral g in a corner because you turned in much harder and then had to correct, rather than smoothly taking the corner with the minimum of steering angle, keeping more speed. Not sure i complete understand it.

 

No that's not right.

 

Corner g is simply a function of (1) the radius of the corner and (2) speed.  The more lateral grip, the higher the g.  It's that simple.  All F1 drivers are driving at the maximum lateral force available to them - that's simply what racing drivers do.

 

What you are describing is "jerk" the rate of change of acceleration which separates a smooth driver from a ham-fisted one. This is not what FOM is measuring.

 

Let Tiff explain:

 



#104 fastpast

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 16:32

C'mon Honda show us what you've got, and don't wait until the end of the season. And I think we'll have to wait for Honda to show their hand before we start talking about McLaren's chassis, don't you think?


I'm ready also being a McLaren fan first, Williams fan second. I think we will see these improvements in concert, PU and chassis, as power settings (of course dependent on reliability since Alonso has 3 and Button 4 power units) are increased with corresponding reliability, their chassis and aero will continue development. Earlier sentiment from several posts, is that some aero improvements cannot be quantified without enough pace, therefore no need to bolt these on until their perceived advantages can show results.

But I still think with everything as quiet as a "church mouse" over the last two weeks, I have a suspicion or a hope that McLaren/Honda/Mobil 1 have been working, "in concert" to bring a much better race car to Malaysia.

Anticipation for Friday on track news is only over-shadowed currently with the news release on Thursday relative to Alonso's condition and any recollection of his accident. Surely hope that he gets clean slate to go back to racing.

#105 Owen

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 16:48

But I still think with everything as quiet as a "church mouse" over the last two weeks, I have a suspicion or a hope that McLaren/Honda/Mobil 1 have been working, "in concert" to bring a much better race car to Malaysia.
 

I hope so :up: . But the tone of the press release is hinting at 'more of the same... for now'. 



#106 AustinF1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 17:01

Just curious about something I was just discussing offline with fastpast. 

 

This is more of a general question, but it seems it could be answered here as well as anywhere. It seems like I remember there being a rule against applying ERS power to individual wheels independently of the others (correct me if I'm wrong). Is there anything in the MGU-K rules to disallow a team from harvesting energy on individual wheels independently?



#107 AustinF1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 17:03

I hope so :up: . But the tone of the press release is hinting at 'more of the same... for now'. 

Probably, but if they're smart, they'll always try to temper expectations, even if they think they're onto something better for the next race. So there's probably not much to be gleaned from their current tone. Could go either way imho.


Edited by AustinF1, 24 March 2015 - 17:04.


#108 Kimble

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 17:32

Just curious about something I was just discussing offline with fastpast. 

 

This is more of a general question, but it seems it could be answered here as well as anywhere. It seems like I remember there being a rule against applying ERS power to individual wheels independently of the others (correct me if I'm wrong). Is there anything in the MGU-K rules to disallow a team from harvesting energy on individual wheels independently?

 

I think this is why the MGU-K has to be 'before' the clutch.



#109 MirNyet

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 17:38

I could be wrong but I think he's referring to the fact that whatever aero updates they have to bolt on has to be run at the maximum potential of the car so they can establish future development paths, without the engine running at 100% the car is not at full potential, this might limit full effects on aero parts and increase risk if they decide on a development path based on that.

 

The engine issues will need to be sorted first and then bolt on other aero stuff

 

I thinks its the same way most teams approach testing, come with the base car, establish reliability and behaviour under race trim and qualy sims and then establish development path based on where you are lacking or where you feel can be improved. Without running the car in full angst you never know what the true potential or lack of there really is.

 

As I said , I could be wrong and he meant something totally different to what i just said

 

When testing aero, the car is run at a set speed to validate the readings from the various sensors on the rockers and allow the flow-viz to do its job. The engine not being at 100% won't stop them doing this. While they may not get the most from the updates (due to engine performance) they can still work on aero development. Also, they could work on their drag without chasing downforce for the short term to help with the engine shortfall. It would still be of use later in the year when the engine (hopefully) is working properly.



#110 Borko

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 17:43

Poor Honda PU14 hasn't tweeted since Australian GP race day :cry:

 

:D



#111 MirNyet

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 18:52

Poor Honda PU14 hasn't tweeted since Australian GP race day :cry:

 

:D

 

From beyond the grave :)



#112 Cacarella

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 19:06

This MUST have been posted in this thread already (Maybe even a month or so ago), but I'm posting

it again, just in case...

 

 



#113 pizzalover

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 20:05

From beyond the grave :)

Melted down and re-incarnated.



#114 bonjon1979a

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 20:53

No that's not right.

Corner g is simply a function of (1) the radius of the corner and (2) speed. The more lateral grip, the higher the g. It's that simple. All F1 drivers are driving at the maximum lateral force available to them - that's simply what racing drivers do.

What you are describing is "jerk" the rate of change of acceleration which separates a smooth driver from a ham-fisted one. This is not what FOM is measuring.

Let Tiff explain:

https://www.youtube....h?v=shwgNV36xFA


Interesting. I'll have to look closely at this cornering performance thing while a race is on to see how it correlates with what you see on live timing.

#115 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 21:13

Heh.

 

HONDAPU22 ‏@hondapu22

I hear we've arrived @JensonButton. Spiffing, I do hate traveling.

 

That's not a secret, @hondapu22



#116 argiriano

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 21:40

Poor Honda PU14 hasn't tweeted since Australian GP race day :cry:

 

:D

I guess it`s because it turns into stardust there...  :wave:

 

https://youtu.be/fUXXYnnvaNI


Edited by argiriano, 24 March 2015 - 21:46.


#117 Rurouni

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:15

They are probably wondering, should they revive Derrick or give it a different name.

For me. the engine should still be HONDAPU14, but not Derrick anymore, because Derrick is dead! Since not a lot of people will remember its name, might as well change their name when they're dead. Of course this would impose a complication on whether the name would be assigned for each of the PU unit or they just retire the name when the PU is dead (meaning that McLaren could use PU no.2 while no.1 is still functioning, but the name stays until the unfortunate thing happens which is when the PU is dead on race weekend). Not to mention that the PU contains different parts that can be changed... maybe Cyborg Derrick (yes, it's silly to call Derrick a cyborg because it's already a machine...)

It's probably too much work though, so Derrick would be revived......



#118 Treads

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:49

They are probably wondering, should they revive Derrick or give it a different name.
For me. the engine should still be HONDAPU14, but not Derrick anymore, because Derrick is dead! Since not a lot of people will remember its name, might as well change their name when they're dead. Of course this would impose a complication on whether the name would be assigned for each of the PU unit or they just retire the name when the PU is dead (meaning that McLaren could use PU no.2 while no.1 is still functioning, but the name stays until the unfortunate thing happens which is when the PU is dead on race weekend). Not to mention that the PU contains different parts that can be changed... maybe Cyborg Derrick (yes, it's silly to call Derrick a cyborg because it's already a machine...)
It's probably too much work though, so Derrick would be revived......


I do believe you are over-thinking this 😀

#119 f1tomi8

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:03

Sidepod:
intercooler in right hand sidepod via Sarbs.
GP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-MittwGP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-Mittw
Amazing package

 


Edited by f1tomi8, 25 March 2015 - 07:21.


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#120 Ncedi

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:45

Sidepod:
intercooler in right hand sidepod via Sarbs.
GP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-MittwGP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-Mittw
Amazing package

 

 

I'm just shocked Ron allows mechanics to display their tattoos like that at work!!

 

Also, I don't know enough about engines to identify let alone understand the packaging of the intercooler  :p



#121 Techcheat

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:52

In a way Alonso is screwed as he has 3 engines before Penalties. I think team should just aim for using 6 engines this year and take the penalties on tracks where qualifying doesnt matter much. No fun being back marker its better to set the fastest lap of the race and finish 12th (after taking 10 second penalty) then to finish 17th in a reliable car as u are using just 4 engines.

 

Now in Alonso's case his second engine too is not leveraging any tokens or development whereas Button can possibly have some upgrades for his 2nd engine. 

 

The races are so boring these days. I think this grand prix Merc will let Rosberg win so that they can dial down the cries to equalise and make races more interesting. They will artificially create a Rosberg Hamilton battle to say races are soo interesting. Might as well close the TV and give title to Hamilton already.... Why call it sports when everything is locked day 1. Might as well call it WWE of racing!


Edited by Techcheat, 25 March 2015 - 07:53.


#122 Maustinsj

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:58

Bet you'll still watch it, though.

#123 CPR

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 08:13

I think the team would be reluctant to deliberately use extra engines because the main "cost" would be felt in the second half of the season when they had expected to be stronger.

 

However, if it can be used to accelerate development then it could be worth it, particularly for next year.



#124 Rocket73

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:08

He can't do a season on 3 engines so they will have to use extras at some point. What's a bit ridiculous is that Honda are destroying tens of engines on the dynos in an effort to get 4 to manage a season. That's what I call effective cost cutting.



#125 Stephane

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:11

And you can be sure Merc, Fer and Ren also destroyed a large amount of them



#126 MirNyet

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 10:28

He can't do a season on 3 engines so they will have to use extras at some point. What's a bit ridiculous is that Honda are destroying tens of engines on the dynos in an effort to get 4 to manage a season. That's what I call effective cost cutting.

 

I was thinking the same thing earlier while reading the Renault thread. This engine freeze is pushing costs up, not down as the penalties are too harsh for mistakes.



#127 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 10:54

I was thinking the same thing earlier while reading the Renault thread. This engine freeze is pushing costs up, not down as the penalties are too harsh for mistakes.

They'd still have engines on dyno's constantly if they were able to use more engines per year. Naturally open ended development costs more money than a frozen formula. But you're right, when there is an amount of development allowed, teams are going to throw all their resources at trying to improve within the narrow restrictions given. The whole money saving argument doesn't really hold together does it. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

However, if the engine freeze was an actual freeze, then costs would go down. But it's not - there's still a great deal of room for development.


Edited by bonjon1979a, 25 March 2015 - 10:55.


#128 Pimpwerx

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:12

Do people still think the turbo is split on the Honda? That Honda website makes no mention of it, and the images make it look like the compressor is indeed coupled to the turbo, as on the F1 site. I know Scarbs says he was told otherwise, but I'm not seeing any evidence of it. PEACE.

#129 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:20

Sidepod:
intercooler in right hand sidepod via Sarbs.
GP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-MittwGP-Malaysia-McLaren-Honda-Formel-1-Mittw
Amazing package

 

I want to know what that thing on the side behind the car is with the cables and pipes coming out of it. Any thoughts?



#130 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:25

In a way Alonso is screwed as he has 3 engines before Penalties. I think team should just aim for using 6 engines this year and take the penalties on tracks where qualifying doesnt matter much. No fun being back marker its better to set the fastest lap of the race and finish 12th (after taking 10 second penalty) then to finish 17th in a reliable car as u are using just 4 engines.
 
Now in Alonso's case his second engine too is not leveraging any tokens or development whereas Button can possibly have some upgrades for his 2nd engine. 
 
The races are so boring these days. I think this grand prix Merc will let Rosberg win so that they can dial down the cries to equalise and make races more interesting. They will artificially create a Rosberg Hamilton battle to say races are soo interesting. Might as well close the TV and give title to Hamilton already.... Why call it sports when everything is locked day 1. Might as well call it WWE of racing!

So you invent some conspiracy scenario and then you conclude the sport is a joke based on your own made-up conspiracy scenario. Tell me you don't seen the logical issues there.

#131 Dzeidzei

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:36

I want to know what that thing on the side behind the car is with the cables and pipes coming out of it. Any thoughts?

 

Dont worry, the mechanics are working on that. They are pretty sure its from Jensons car.



#132 Dzeidzei

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:37

This MUST have been posted in this thread already (Maybe even a month or so ago), but I'm posting

it again, just in case...

 

 

 

This would be so funny if it wasnt so true.



#133 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:37

Dont worry, the mechanics are working on that. They are pretty sure its from Jensons car.

I am a mclaren mechanic, I'm the one with the tattoo. Genuinely mystified what this thing is and where I should put it, a little help please?



#134 frosty125

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:14

Can you be a bit more precise?



#135 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:25

Can you be a bit more precise?

In the zoomed in image, immediately next to the dude's tattooed arm.



#136 Kimble

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:40

It looks like a compressed air bottle with regulators.

#137 MirNyet

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:55

They'd still have engines on dyno's constantly if they were able to use more engines per year. Naturally open ended development costs more money than a frozen formula. But you're right, when there is an amount of development allowed, teams are going to throw all their resources at trying to improve within the narrow restrictions given. The whole money saving argument doesn't really hold together does it. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

However, if the engine freeze was an actual freeze, then costs would go down. But it's not - there's still a great deal of room for development.

 

They still have to develop for reliability - so the entire concept of an engine freeze is flawed. Even during the V8 era, all of the engine makers were still moving their engines forward (under the banner of reliability updates). The FIA wanted the engines to be cheaper - thus only 'x' per year with no development happening on them, this has totally backfired as making them last and perform is likely more work and money than just making them perform.



#138 MirNyet

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:04

In the zoomed in image, immediately next to the dude's tattooed arm.

 

Oil chamber for the sump? Or a compressed air system would be my guess.



#139 micktosin

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:07

What are your expectation for this weekend guys?

Although I expect one McLaren car to scrape into q2 in china(anything less will be massively disappointing), but It will be nice to see at least one McLaren car make it into Q2 this weekend. 



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#140 Nicktendo86

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:10

Ptediction: neither cars in q2 and one car (possible Button) to retire during the race. Engine still massively turned down, however decent corning will be apparent again. Will fight the Manors.

#141 MirNyet

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:11

What are your expectation for this weekend guys?

Although I expect one McLaren car to scrape into q2 in china(anything less will be massively disappointing), but It will be nice to see at least one McLaren car make it into Q2 this weekend. 

 

Depends on the rain I think, if it rains, it might be interesting, if not - at the back again just in-front of the Manor cars (hopefully :) )...



#142 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:19

Interesting. I'll have to look closely at this cornering performance thing while a race is on to see how it correlates with what you see on live timing.

 

The data is taken and can be used to form a plot like this :)

 

Showing the acceleration, braking and lateral force envelope of the car in gs.

 

(this plot is for some road car hence the much lower values than F1!)

 

1533579_orig.jpg


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 March 2015 - 13:22.


#143 Owen

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:19

Depends on the rain I think, if it rains, it might be interesting, if not - at the back again just in-front of the Manor cars (hopefully :) )...

That sounds (depressingly) realistic to me.  :up:



#144 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:21

It looks like a compressed air bottle with regulators.

 

As of course F1 engines use compressed air to close the valves, instead of springs. :)



#145 Exb

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 13:27

What are your expectation for this weekend guys?

Although I expect one McLaren car to scrape into q2 in china(anything less will be massively disappointing), but It will be nice to see at least one McLaren car make it into Q2 this weekend. 

I just hope for some kind of progress - I think there was definitely some between testing and Australia and now there needs to be more. Ideally both cars running in the race with more engine performance but given the increase in temperatures expected I guess it may make it difficult. Hopefully some rain will help with both removing any issues from high temperatures and limiting performance loss of having the engines turned down.



#146 mclarensmps

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 14:17

What are your expectation for this weekend guys?

Although I expect one McLaren car to scrape into q2 in china(anything less will be massively disappointing), but It will be nice to see at least one McLaren car make it into Q2 this weekend. 

 

I'm going to set you up for disappointment right from the off: It's not going to happen!



#147 Hollow

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 14:24

 

I just hope for some kind of progress

 

 

Yes, two weeks of progress. We should wake up each morning saying, today the car is 1% faster than yesterday. So I reckon we need two more months, at least.



#148 f1tomi8

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 14:30

I want to know what that thing on the side behind the car is with the cables and pipes coming out of it. Any thoughts?

Good question! I don't know...



#149 frosty125

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 14:34

This will probably the most difficult race of the year for the MP4-30 given the heat the temperature issues and the long straights.



#150 micktosin

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 14:55

I'm going to set you up for disappointment right from the off: It's not going to happen!

Oh thanks for that, massively reassuring.

On a realistic note, seeing a reasonable progress will be more than good enough for me as well. 

 

Yes, two weeks of progress. We should wake up each morning saying, today the car is 1% faster than yesterday. So I reckon we need two more months, at least.

I will snap your hand off for a 1% progress everyday, as the cumulative effect mean Mclaren will be able to challenge Mercedes by Abu dhabi  :cat: