99 replies to this topic

[bigleagueslider]

Well, it is pretty fast.

That's funny! Email travels at 186,000 mps, right?

 

If Arfons were still alive he would be almost 90 years old, so his memory would likely not be that good.

 

Interestingly, the single engine F104 using a GE J79 reached higher speeds than the dual engine F4 using two R-R Speys.

[chunder27]

That would be for two reasons

 

One, the F4 weighs far more and is designed to be a multi role plane, built initially for carriers, and designed to be an interceptor as well as other things.

 

Two, the cretinous decision by our military to only allow Phantoms into service with UK built engines. THe spey was garbage, and performed worse than the 79 even though it had more thrust, towards the end of its service here, we actually bought some ex Marines F4's and the pilots who flew them said it was far etter than our version!

 

I meant Arfons would be the type who would not even want to know what email is!  He would eschew it!

 

THe f104 was a lethal plane, single purpose, built to be a missile, tiny wings, knife edge wing profile.  No fuel. Basically a SAM with a pilot

 

I do believe though that a provate F104 holds the sea level air speed record of about 900mph?

[bigleagueslider]

The F104 was definitely a fast, lightweight airframe designed for a specific role. And the F4 was a much heavier, durable airframe designed for a different role.

 

One thing I wonder about with all of these turbojet designs like the Green Monster, Thrust2 or ThrustSSC is what would have happened if there was a structural failure of the high-speed rotating engine components. In all of these designs it appears that the driver is located right next to where failed compressor/fan blades would exit the engine casing.

[chunder27]

Interestingly spent a bit of time looking at the North American Eagle site, and while I think their design is utterly flawed, it does offer up some interesting ideas, electro magnetic braking for one.

 

They are also not it appears using a 79, I have not heard of the motor theya re using!  But am presuming it fits in the hole.

 

Jets tend not to fail that often,Arfons risked a lot using his, which was basically damaged anyway, but he tested it a few times and got it balanced by removing the blades to do so.

 

Noble used an Avon that was I think low miles, but hard to get hold of and the Spey's similarly were low miles, the xtra power ones again not sure.

 

THe engine used in Bloodhound is very new, off the Typhoon! But obviously only a part of the power system.

 

I cant recall many jet engine failures, maybe the Flying Caduceus?  Nathan Ostich or did that fall over?

[Bob Riebe]

The N. A. Eagle is not much more than an F-104 with its wings chopped off.so a J-79 had better fit the hole.

[chunder27]

On their site the engine is listed as a General Electric LM1500 supplied by S and S turbines

 

Doesnt sound much like a J79 to me unless that is a version of one.

 

And give them credit, the vehcle is a little more advanced than that, and they do seem to be keen, although as I say rather flawed and rather full of failed optimism!

[Bob Riebe]

On their site the engine is listed as a General Electric LM1500 supplied by S and S turbines

 

Doesn't sound much like a J79 to me unless that is a version of one.

 

And give them credit, the vehcle is a little more advanced than that, and they do seem to be keen, although as I say rather flawed and rather full of failed optimism!

You REALLY should read more.

The LM 1500 is a derivative of the J-79.

 

It has been around since 1959, S and S are now the only ones who now service it.

 

Arfons and Breedlove put ten times the amount of thought and work into their cars than these boys have.

If the bang-seat is still installed, that is probably the main reason they used this vehicle.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 15 April 2015 - 17:52.

[Robin Fairservice]

I have seen the GE gas turbines in use driving gas compressors for pipelines; also I was on a Princess Cruise ship which had a LM2500 driving one of their gen sets.

[chunder27]

Why are you such a negative man towards this thread Bob, no need for it really. I did find that out later on, but in the desire to keep the thread running kept it open, no need to be so presumptious and huffy.

 

You seem to be defending Arfons and Breedlove as if I have attacked them or denegrated them in some way? I have done nothing of the sort. All I have done is suggested that Art's car was perhaps not as safe as it could have been, not as refined as it could have been. He did have a few accidents in it and in some of his previous cars.  As did Breedlove, but far fewer.

 

That fact is not a criticism, merely a view from someone who has read a lot about this (whilst in your opinion not rememebing every tiny detail) and come to a conclusion.

 

And it certainly does not reflect a lack of admiration or respect for everything they achieved. They made the LSR what it is in the modern era. And now it has moved on to be dominated by Richard Noble and his team.  A far more refined, engineered and thought out process yet still achieving the same goal.

 

You have been proven wrong on facts too, so can we not simply applaud these mans achievements and continue a good thread or bicker over trivial formalities. 

 

Ribin, I did see a clip on youtube earlier of a J79 that was owned by Craig about to be converted into somethign awful!

[scolbourne]

Maybe we should have a class for driverless cars. Without having to worry about the drivers safety we should get really stupid speeds.

I recently went to a model rocket event and they are achieving mach 3.5 with commercial hobby rocket motors.

 

To make it realistic we could have a human sized dummy that has to be carried. The cars would help push technology whilst keeping the costs manageable and if sensible precautions are taken there would be no risk of injuries.

 

Rules could state that a driver operates the car by remote control through FPV to keep the human element.

 

I also recommend the same idea for water speed record attempts where the danger is probably higher.

[chunder27]

I think Craig was planning on running the Sonic Arrow driverless up to the sound barrier as I recall then driving himself once it was proven?

 

The challenge though has to be based around a man being in the car surely?  Otherwise what's the point, it is then his or hers ability to be in that vehicel and experience those forces that puts them on a pedestal and raises them up to a level to inspire people.

 

Bloodhoud is ALL about education and trying to inspire future engineers, designers, technicians and in general trying to get people into that sort of industry, not having a central figure like Andy Green to go to schools, design houses, universities would massively detract from that goal.

 

It is for this reason that most of the people working on the car are paid, the project is well budgeted and could actually do very well.

[Bob Riebe]

Why are you such a negative man towards this thread Bob, no need for it really. I did find that out later on, but in the desire to keep the thread running kept it open, no need to be so presumptious and huffy.

 

You seem to be defending Arfons and Breedlove as if I have attacked them or denegrated them in some way? I have done nothing of the sort. All I have done is suggested that Art's car was perhaps not as safe as it could have been, not as refined as it could have been. He did have a few accidents in it and in some of his previous cars.  As did Breedlove, but far fewer.

 

That fact is not a criticism, merely a view from someone who has read a lot about this (whilst in your opinion not rememebing every tiny detail) and come to a conclusion.

 

And it certainly does not reflect a lack of admiration or respect for everything they achieved. They made the LSR what it is in the modern era. And now it has moved on to be dominated by Richard Noble and his team.  A far more refined, engineered and thought out process yet still achieving the same goal.

 

You have been proven wrong on facts too, so can we not simply applaud these mans achievements and continue a good thread or bicker over trivial formalities. 

You saying you did not criticize is a lie based strictly on your rationalization that your opinion of what is or is not true about the Bonneville cars is fact.

 

Safety? Thought out?

Unless you were there fifty years ago, you have no right to say what they did was or was not good enough; all you have is your biased opinion.

Perhaps you should educate yourself and see who the Arfons boys, Breedlove and others worked with for their efforts before you pass judgements based on ignorance.

 

I have been proven wrong on nothing, Sliders opinion that Arfons, look up what Tim,  Art's surviving son thinks of GE's denial of the J-79 have a staged afterburner.

All the Arfons have done is use them for decades, so what would they know.

 

The Green Monster had an automotive foot pedal throttle. Depending on how far one suppressed it determined whether or not the afterburner was engaged and which of the four sections of the afterburner were engaged.

Art never put the pedal to the metal in any run.

 

The AussieInvader boys are still trying to put together a car for a record run.

It will be a rocket car.

I have always found the jet cars more interesting as they can be driven around under throttle where the rocket cars one shot wonders.

They should create a class just for jet cars.

At Bonneville new classes have been added which has reinvigorated the Bonneville even from the nineties where 300mph + runs were extremely rare to now not being uncommon, as the racers have more prizes to go after.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 16 April 2015 - 16:15.

[chunder27]

I think I will leave you alone for now, Noble never had tyre issues coz he didnt use them. Arfons did. Breedlove really sisnt. Arfons blew countless tires, stopping his runs, then a part broke at 600mph and wrote the car off. None of these things happened to Noble, Green, Breedlove.

 

Art was pushing it more than them maybe? Or maybe building a car for a fraction of the price of the others was perhaps pushing the envelope a little. Breedlove also broke early recrods in a 3 wheel car. I suppose you might also think teh Budweiser Rocket broke the sound barrier?

 

You seem rather a bitter man about this subject and clearly have a little US vs UK theme going on there which I am not going to entertain.

So sorry we beat all the records.

[gruntguru]

Most jet engine technology originated in the UK.

 

Rockets? Germany and USA?

[Bob Riebe]

I think I will leave you alone for now, Noble never had tyre issues coz he didnt use them. Arfons did. Breedlove really sisnt. Arfons blew countless tires, stopping his runs, then a part broke at 600mph and wrote the car off. None of these things happened to Noble, Green, Breedlove.

 

Art was pushing it more than them maybe? Or maybe building a car for a fraction of the price of the others was perhaps pushing the envelope a little. Breedlove also broke early recrods in a 3 wheel car. I suppose you might also think teh Budweiser Rocket broke the sound barrier?

 

You seem rather a bitter man about this subject and clearly have a little US vs UK theme going on there which I am not going to entertain.

So sorry we beat all the records.

Hmm, I do not remember saying a word about the Bud car, and the bit about tires is something that you seem to be a bit infatuated with but  grade schools quips are expected of you.

Bitter, hmmm, well not as bitter as you seem to be for being exposed for being both ignorant and quite  arrogant.

Arrogant ignorance, not a good trait.

 

Records are made to be broken which is why Art was very fond of the Brits where as his attitude towards Breedlove was as his son says, amicable.

 

Anyway, bye bye.

[Kelpiecross]

To change the subject slightly: the jet-powered water speed record is slightly different in that in that attempts are far more dangerous than the LSR. The main reason the current record has stood since 1978 is that it is
usually fatal to make an attempt on the record. Ken Warby is/was as game as Ned Kelly.
Warby used only a little J34.

[bigleagueslider]

You REALLY should read more.

The LM 1500 is a derivative of the J-79.

 

It has been around since 1959, S and S are now the only ones who now service it.

 

Arfons and Breedlove put ten times the amount of thought and work into their cars than these boys have.

If the bang-seat is still installed, that is probably the main reason they used this vehicle.

While the LM-1500 was derived from the basic J79 engine, it is far different in many respects. First, the LM-1500 is a turboshaft engine designed for marine and industrial applications. Thus it has no afterburner, uses more robust and heavier components, and has compressors/turbines designed for operation at low speed/fixed conditions. Would seem rather difficult to modify an LM-1500 to use an afterburner or operate at speeds of >750mph.

[bigleagueslider]

What made the LSR competition in the 60s and 70s so compelling is that it was incredibly dangerous, and most of the participants seemed to be average guys with tiny budgets designing, building and driving their own cars. While the well funded and technically sophisticated efforts of Bloodhound are impressive, they also lack the aura of danger and love of an underdog that the public craves with such pursuits.

[chunder27]

Sticks and stones Mr Riebe. I have some level of decency at least.

 

Knowledgeable as you are, you would obviously know that the wheels on Arfons car cost more than the car itself, as they did on Breedloves, and each project would probably not have carried on were it not for Goodyear and Firestone, hence my interest in that technology. INstead of agreeing with certain points, you have nitpicked your way through most points. A fact which exposes rather more of you than me. I am happy to admit mistakes. I ahve now read conflicting storie abotu 4 stage burners for example.

 

Tyre companies were big sponsors of the Wingfoot Express, Blue Flame, Green Monster, Spirit cars.  So a pivotal part in each attempt, and the fact Art kept having blowouts was why he went to twin wheels. fairly important no?

 

This is a small subject and you do seem more interested in proving things wrong rather than talking about much else.

 

Regarding underdogs. Noble understands this. Both his previous cars were not well funded, just well put together and run in a rather more structured way, Bloodhound is certainly beter funded and designed for a different audience, not simply the public, it is the first LSR car wth an actual brief above and beyond simply breaking the record. It is a PR tool for UK manufacturing and engineering.

 

The reason the race in the 60's was exciting was because it was new, jets were new, tv was getting there and the people were captivated as they were with Evel Kneivel and the like. Over here the Campbells were treated like heroes too.

 

The same is true now of Ken Block,  Travis Pastrana etc. They might be doing differnet things but are still experiencing that same relevance.

 

Arfons might have appeared a plucky underdog but he was simply a self taught, very brave man. And certainly was far from broke! Most of things he did were either self made or bought from scrappers coz he had no intention of using somehting he could build himself!. He made his own chute systems, his own centrifuge, bought a J79 for 700 bucks, used plane engines for drag racing when everyone was using V8's. Breedlove was better looking, great for the media, built a lovely car etc etc. But again a lot of his talent was self taught. He was a visionary as much as Art was.

 

People overlook Gabelich a bit, that car was beautiful, superbly designed, well funded and broke the record comfortably and held it for years. A later, less interested public perhaps?

[bigleagueslider]

The point about capturing the public attention with these types of pursuits is very important. Consider the similar situation with manned space flight. The first few sub-orbital and orbital manned flights were front page news, but later ones were not. The first lunar landing was huge, but the last two Apollo lunar missions were cancelled due to lack of interest. The first two or three Space Shuttle flights caught the public attention, but of the following 100+ flights the only ones that got covered were the two crashes. Recently, the efforts of Elon Musk and SpaceX have caught the public attention because he succeeded in presenting himself as an underdog going up against the big aerospace industry giants.

 

The general public has a very limited attention span, and have little real understanding of what is involved in these pursuits. It would be very impressive to me as an engineer if the Bloodhound effort is sucessful. And I love them making the technical details of the project available to stimulate interest in science and engineering among young people. Unfortunately, when Bloodhound sets a new LSR very few people will notice. A maglev train in Japan just set a new world speed record. Did any of you know about that?

[chunder27]

Sadly

 

We can all blame ourselves for that situation.

 

Most people would rather click on stories abotu Kelly Brook or Kim big arse than do anythin remotely interesting with their time.

 

THe modern consumer is so wrapped up largley in themsleves, their kids and their job they forget to look outwards.

 

I was captivated by things like this as a kid, from having little tv, reading books and finding things out for myself.

 

Most kdis these days only know about some overpaid petulant footballer, whoever won some garbage tv show and a few other utterly irrelevant facts.

 

I applau Noble for using this as a way of getting funding, and if it works he will do what he did with SSC and use it as a platform to sell the way it was done, sold and paid for to businesses.

 

Lets hope a few listen.

[Canuck]

I don't think that's a fair statement. When you were kid,you didn't hold the sum total of the known knowledge in your 10-year old hands. The level of distractions that surround and bombard people today vastly outstrips even the most concerted efforts of the past. Plus, now they've got reams of very interesting science on how to best capture that attention. Advertising and marketers today know far more about what makes you tick than you do.

A story like the Bloodhound has a million competing stories, some of which are legitimately interesting. The ability to liven essential life, the vital few over the trivial many is so much more relevant today, in large part thanks to nothing more than the unlimited choices we enjoy. There are many rabbit holes into which we can fall.

[chunder27]

Not everyone is taken in by advertising my friend. They do make people aware, but if you have your own mind you can read betwen the lines, and most of it is utter garbage. You only have to look at car adverts at the moment, would you really turn your head in the stgreet to see a Nissan or a Renault Clio?  Car PR people are trying to make you think you should. I mean come on, for goodness sake! MArks and Spencer turning food into an object of sexal desire almost, didn't make me shop there, even with their rocket, infused this and drizzled that. Cant polish a poo can you.

 

I will deliberately not purchase products or use services that I do not agree with or that bombard radio or tv I listen to with advertising. And I have been known to write to said companies telling them so. I never wanted to smoke because my fave rally or race riders were sponsored by fag companies. But I did appreciate theri sponsorship.

 

The point here is, that in the older times, a guy like Arfons, Breedlove, Eyston, Campbell capture that escapism element. Like an astronaut or a fighter pilot did. They were heroes.

 

I was captivated by it as a kid, didn't mean I ended up working in either field. But closer to home I was captivated by Barry Sheene, Gilles Villeneuve, Markku Alen, David Llewellin, Eddie Lejeune because I was exposed to them as amazing drivers or riders through telly.

 

In the 60's there were so little outlets, it was easier for projects like this to reach the masses.

 

Noble realises this and is at least trying to get throgh to this generation that engineering is cool, interesting and rewarding.  Even if he gets a handful of people into those kind of jobs he has done his job. And for that he should be applauded.

[Canuck]

Perhaps I failed to clearly outline the concept: whether you're "taken in" by the marketing and parting with your dollar is one thing (and not my point). The sheer volume of data flowing through the fingers of anyone who picks up an Internet connected device is astronomical is another. Simply discovering the existence of the Bloodhound is a feat of tremendous proportion for an individual not currently floating around in a somehow - related fashion.

As a 10-year old boy, your distractions were drastically limited by comparison. It's easy to be enthralled by an LSR when the alternative includes frogs in the pond, another game of baseball or seeing how far you can skid your bicycle tire. Not that I'm in any way suggesting one is better than the other.

[chunder27]

Baseball, sorry chap I am British!

 

But I see your point, a lot of things now disappear into the ether with GTA5, Call of Duty, Facebook etc.

 

But these attempts are linked into all that too, and all it takes is a little effort to find out things.

 

Surely this is a better option than simply a rich man spending millions and not really involving anyone. At least this way in the UK Richard is trying to spark the interest in kids by visiting schools, universities etc.

[bigleagueslider]

You really think Art would have any idea what email is?

If he figured out how to get that damaged J79 to run on his own, I'm sure he would have no problem figuring out email.

[chunder27]

Haha, I simply meant that I imagine Art would totally not know abut email unless it was useful to him, he struck me as a phone and talk kind of guy!

 

And he knew a lot about jet engines by then running Cyclops and he also pretty much always ran aero engines in his Green Monster drag cars.

 

Interesting to note that his record setting Monster was rebuilt and could have run again with Slick Gardner at the wheel, but he crashed it too, but it does still exist.

[Bob Riebe]

Haha, I simply meant that I imagine Art would totally not know abut email unless it was useful to him, he struck me as a phone and talk kind of guy!

 

And he knew a lot about jet engines by then running Cyclops and he also pretty much always ran aero engines in his Green Monster drag cars.

 

Interesting to note that his record setting Monster was rebuilt and could have run again with Slick Gardner at the wheel, but he crashed it too, but it does still exist.

 

 

Yes it still exists, as Art wanted to buy it back but Gardner wanted ten time what he paid for it.

 

It was not crashed so to speak, Gardner lost control at sub 400 mph speed and parked it out of cowardice or something similar that Art said decades ago.

 

The only parts that still exist unmodified of the first car, as Tim said, is the tail and failed bearing sitting in a shed.

 

Edited by Bob Riebe, 22 April 2015 - 20:25.

[chunder27]

I thought Slick crashed it at a fairly high speed? 600+  Maybe not.

 

Was on ebay I remember, and was up for 59 grand, cheap really when yoou consider wht you could probbaly make doing runs!

[Bob Riebe]

Many years ago back when cable TV offered some truly unique motorsport shows, one show covered speed runs at Bonneville, and this was during the down years, when Art thought a J85 with less weight could make up for the shear thrust of a J79.

After not even getting close to speeds he ran in the past, during the interview the fact this was a true shoe-string effort was revealed as he said he need far more engine and far more money to afford another car.

 

At the point he also said at his age he did not know if he had the personal drive it would take for a bigger effort.

 

I wonder when was the last time a television show covered the Bonneville speed runs?

I have one show on a vcr tape but that is over twenty years old.

[chunder27]

I saw a picture of that car, Green Monster 27.

 

It was originally built as a 2 wheeler, and had skids on the side of it to try and make a bike record, but the rear wheel was getting in the way of the exhaust and Art converted into a 3 wheeler by fitting outrigger wheels.  Was a tiny thing, little canard wings up front, all metallic green, lovely looking thing.

He was in his 60's by now and did run 400+mph in it, but was never likely to get anywhere in this car. All he wanted to do was set another record, he knew this car was not likely to go supersonic, just like he knew the original Monster couldn't either, that was all just good PR! He also said he wished he had never soold that car to Slick and would have run that remotely up to 700mph as he was unsure about the sound barrier

 

Which actually makes the SSC efforts all the more amazing, as they did it all with a pilot. Both Breedlove and Arfons looked to get close to Mach1 with a remote control then get onboard afterwards. True Brit grit!!

 

This was when Art and Dusty were very involved and successful in tractor pulling too.

 

I am reading some stuff at the moment about Art, and Bob, you are indeed correct about the 4 stage burner. It is mentioned numerous times in this book. But it must also be rememberd that Art's engine was always down on power as it was a repaired one, I think he eventually had a few J79's for spares, but not sure he ever replaced the original one he bought from the scrapper for 700 bucks!

[bigleagueslider]

Many years ago back when cable TV offered some truly unique motorsport shows, one show covered speed runs at Bonneville, and this was during the down years, when Art thought a J85 with less weight could make up for the shear thrust of a J79.

After not even getting close to speeds he ran in the past, during the interview the fact this was a true shoe-string effort was revealed as he said he need far more engine and far more money to afford another car.

 

At the point he also said at his age he did not know if he had the personal drive it would take for a bigger effort.

 

I wonder when was the last time a television show covered the Bonneville speed runs?

I have one show on a vcr tape but that is over twenty years old.

I've been to both El Mirage and Bonneville a couple times during SCTA events. Unfortunately, never got to see a jet or rocket car run. But I did see a couple wheel driven streamliners run close to 400mph.

 

Regarding the J85 engine versus the J79, the J85 only produced about 1/3 of the thrust of the J79. But they were designed for very different applications. The J79 was designed for operation at speeds up to mach 2, while the J85 was not.

[chunder27]

Wasnt the J86 used in the T38 Talon or the F5 planes?  THey used two, small thrust, but a beautiful plane in my eyes?

 

Thrust 2 used an Avon from a Lightning, Noble wanted to use the Olympus engin from Concorde, but the Avon was cheaper.

 

Think Wat used a Westinghouse motor in Wingfoot, from the B36 bomber? Another lovely car

[bigleagueslider]

Yes, the J85 was used in both the T-38 and F5. The mach 1+ F5 used two of the engines, and was indeed a very pretty aircraft. I believe a few F5's are still being flown by NASA. I've seen an F5 up close and one thing that struck me was how incredibly thin the wings were. I think the J85 was also used for a couple civilian applications, minus the afterburners.

[chunder27]

I sat oine one many years ago actually, they were based over in the UK in something called the Aggressor squadron, where they mimicked Russian tactics and and taught NATO pilots their techniques, was a tiny thing, and should have been upgraded to the Tigershark, a single engined version that was much more powerful and would have been teh F16 of its time!

 

Am reading Harvey Shapiro's book at the moment amd it is talking about the Budweiser Rocket, what a weird deal that all was!

 

No doubt the thing was fast, but it only set a record one way and through a very short timing light, where it in fact did not break the sound barrier. They said it broke it, but that was only verified by dubious means!  And not at the timing lights! 

[bigleagueslider]

I would agree that the speed record claims by the Budweiser Rocket car are a bit dubious. As noted, the car was very heavy at the start and only had enough fuel to operate the 19,000lb thrust main engine for 18 seconds. And the 3,000lb of additional thrust from the solid rocket motor for a final 4-5 seconds did not get the job done.

 

Regadless, I think a rocket engine is the way to go if you want to run at very high speeds, provided it can be made to run for the necessary length of time and can be refueled quickly enough to make another pass within the allotted time.

[chunder27]

There have been numerous attempts really, I think Breedlove wanted to run a rocket motor in his last car initially, but was put off by the then sjy high costs of fuel and storage things that the modern world would require him to do to use it!

 

The Bloodhound uses an on/off fuel rather than the firework style aproach of Budweiser and Blue Flame that just kept going until they ran out!

 

Another attempt was Walf Arfons second Wingfoot than used JATO bombs, but they were not powerful enough eaither even with 15, and they had to give up because they ahd to add more onto the sort of back rear of the car and using them caught it alight!

[bigleagueslider]

The solid fuel and oxidiser used by Bloodhound's rocket motor are basically the same as those used by the Budweiser vehicle - peroxide and HTPB. But as you noted Bloodhound uses a recip engine driven pump to regulate the oxidiser flow to the rocket motor. The Budweiser car used pressure blow down of the storage tank to deliver oxidiser to the rocket engine. As I noted, one serious issue with solid fuel rocket engines is the amount of time required to replace them between runs. The size and weight of a solid fuel stage needed to run long enough for a LSR pass are quite significant, and it is very difficult to remove the spent stage and then perform all the work, adjustments and safety checks needed to install a new stage within the time allowed by the regulations. Gabelich avoided this problem by using liquid fuel and oxidiser (peroxide and LNG).

[Nathan]

Watching Chris Harris drive a La Ferrari was enough to cure me of ever watching him again. When you drive a Camaro or Mustang, then get sideways and play around. If you're driving a real car and trying to comment on it with any credibility, then learn to hit an apex and don't drive it like your average race team mini-van on the way to (or from) the bar.

 

I think it is a case of catering to his audience.

[chunder27]

I agree some of his road car stuff is pretty tame and poor.

 

But this piece was different, he was in genuine awe of the team and Andy green and that came across as it would for a fan like me too.

 

IN that way the piece did its job very well for such a small online audience.

[bigleagueslider]

It would be great to see a LSR competition held each year involving national teams, with the crews and drivers being active duty military. Similar to the Schneider Cup air race competitions held back in the 20s and 30s.

[gruntguru]

I like the idea but why restrict it to the military?

[chunder27]

There kind of is a competition every year.

 

It is called Bonneville Speedweek. They also do similar things out on El Mirage, where you can see all sorts of streamliners and possible LSR setting cars. Most current 400mph cars run at one of these venues each year.

 

It is a fairly expensive exercise running a jet LSR car, so it is not likely to ever happen every year. Most LSR projects are funded on a shoestring these days (if they ever happen at all) and do not have the massive backing of a Firestone or Goodyear like the halycon Arfons/Breedlove era did.

 

Bloodhound, like Thrust 2 and SSC before it is trying to fund itself wholly through sponsorship, he has no money to fund it himself. Arfons made his car and Firestone came on board to help, and Breedlove collaborated with Goodyear from the start. 

 

Difference this time is that Noble, instead of using all sponsor money to fund this has tried a new approach, to use the car and team to promote UK engineering. A clever tactic actually, and has brought in better sponsors and increased funding as a result. I would imagine if he had used the previous "for Britain and for the hell of it " approach the funding would not have materialised so readily.

[bigleagueslider]

I like the idea but why restrict it to the military?

I said "national teams". Similar to the Olympic games or World Cup soccer.

 

The reason for using military mechanics and drivers is because almost every country has a core of professional military pilots and aircraft technicians. And using them would promote a friendly spirit of competition between nations. This is the way the Schneider Cup competition was conducted. The engines and airframes were the product of national teams and were usually flown by military pilots.

[gruntguru]

The reason for using military mechanics and drivers is because almost every country has a core of professional military pilots and aircraft technicians.

Sure but why restrict it to these people?

[chunder27]

I can see the principle is fine.

 

But I doubt many countries other then perhaps China, USA, Israel, South Korea and maybe Japan would be interested and have the budgets to even consider it.

 

Certainly few European nations. I can see the benefits, in the same way as what Noble is doing, encourage schools to get invovled in a nationalistic way, but not a goer I fear.

[bigleagueslider]

Don't most countries have military units that have special aircraft, pilots and mechanics just for performing at airshows? This list seems to show several dozen countries with military aerobatic display teams. If they can afford the cost of supporting these display teams, I don't think the cost of an LSR effort would be out of the question.

[chunder27]

Most teams run ay airshows for military and shared interest reasons.

 

RAf want to sell planes to India for example. We send a Herc, Typhoon, Hawk over and do a couple of displays there, they send their display team here in return. Airshows are a bit of an old boys network really and in each country are a portal for recruitment.  I went to Biggin Hill a few years back and the who,e front section of the display tents was forces recruitment, not shops.

 

You reach more people at an airshow, can tlak to them, tell them your story over the mike. It is a PR exercise, and reciprocal in that you will get invites to lots of places to sell, mingle if you are there.

 

It has little to do with showing off engineering, most RAF engineers are simply fitters, ot engineers, the engineers are workgin for BAE, Lockheed MArtin, Boeing etc.  They are places where a project might come from.

 

Though I do think someone like Newey or Barnard could come up with something interesting should they be interested. Sadly car dymanics run out at about 300mph, which is why Noble used missile designers, not car aero people.

[bigleagueslider]

I would disagree. The USN/USMC Blue Angels fly older model F-18's and the USAF Thunderbirds fly older F-16's. The RAF Red Arrows fly Hawk T-1 trainers. There are no customers for these legacy aircraft.

[chunder27]

It is pure marketing, nothing more.

Flying the flag and recruitment.

 

That brings you far more than trying to break a LSR.