68 replies to this topic

[SanDiegoGo]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118232

 

http://www.auto-moto...er-9409988.html

 

https://twitter.com/...373668430864384

 

if that's true they sorted that toot-sweet.

Edited by SanDiegoGo, 27 March 2015 - 10:11.

[Vesuvius]

Good news, I think.

[Newbrray]

Never thought I'd say this but for once the FIA got this right (although it was their error that needed a rethink in the first place).....sorry I had to have a dig even when praising them

 

 

Drivers to get extra 5th engine for 2015

 

http://thisisf1.com/...ne-for-2015-f1/

[CountDooku]

Fantastic news! No idea why they reduced it to begin with. They need a minimum of 6 engines and gearboxes really.

[Exb]

So it looks like it will come down to money again as to whether the teams will vote to increase the allowance, as they will have to pay extra for the 5th engine - I wonder if the likes of Force India can afford the extra unit

 

Out of interest if they don't vote for the increase in engines and find 4 is not enough for most teams so they have to take a 5th engine anyway, plus a load of penalties - is that extra engine free, or do they still have to pay for it???

[showtime]

At first sight I read "FIRE power units now allowed in 2015" 

[SanDiegoGo]

Never thought I'd say this but for once the FIA got this right (although it was their error that needed a rethink in the first place).....sorry I had to have a dig even when praising them

 

 

 

 

relax, the FIA are not behind this. the teams and bernie were the ones who made it happen, if it does actually happen. you can continue to neg them.

[DaddyCool]

A step in the right direction, unfortunately it will do nothing to prevent PU conservation.

[CountDooku]

A step in the right direction, unfortunately it will do nothing to prevent PU conservation.

Every little helps!

[Gyno]

Why not just make it so that the team that uses the least amount of engines over a season gets XX amount of bonus points at the end of the season.

That way Some might go for pushing the engines hard and having a new engine every weekend while others will try and save engines and get those extra points.

[alframsey]

Finally a common sense decision!

[Pingguest]

Once again rules are changed mid-season.

[bonjon1979a]

This is a good thing. Hopefully allowing teams to be less conservative and not running in preservation mode. Glad they did it so early too before it could be seen to favour one team or another. Thumbs up.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Every little helps!

Look where they are... (Tesco that is....    )

[CountDooku]

Once again rules are changed mid-season.

A good change for once!

[Fastcake]

Can I say I knew this would happen?

Well I thought the limit would increase last season as well, but since five proved to be enough and some teams already went through an engine in the first race, it was more apparent there was going to be a rule change this year.

Edited by Fastcake, 27 March 2015 - 13:05.

[pdac]

Couldn't come soon enough given that both Red Bull's have used up one already.

 

The tone of the recent comments from both Red Bull and Renault suggests that they have stopped bitching about each other and are now, perhaps, working towards a common goal. I hope so.

[kraduk]

Are we not getting ahead of ourselves here? There has been a meeting and agreement reached, but has there been a vote from the teams (which is required I think). If the vote hasnt happened yet I fully expect one of the back markers to veto it, as front runners breaking down is their best chance at points. Plus there are the increased costs.

[tweiss]

Should be 1 per weekend... get back to racing and not this green BS... I hate Max Mosely.

[ExFlagMan]

Couldn't come soon enough given that both Red Bull's have used up one already.

Maybe Horner had a quiet word with his mate Bernie.
 

Are we not getting ahead of ourselves here? There has been a meeting and agreement reached, but has there been a vote from the teams (which is required I think). If the vote hasnt happened yet I fully expect one of the back markers to veto it, as front runners breaking down is their best chance at points. Plus there are the increased costs.

Bernie's reply was - don't worry about the cost, I'll just screw over the back markers a bit more to help you out...

Edited by ExFlagMan, 27 March 2015 - 13:57.

[AlexS]

If true, lamentable.

[Scotracer]

Should be 1 per weekend... get back to racing and not this green BS... I hate Max Mosely.

 

It's nothing to do with green, it's to save money. That'd be 19 engines a year vs 5 (!) 

[rammsteinfan]

It's nothing to do with green, it's to save money. That'd be 19 engines a year vs 5 (!) 

 

 

Yes and 19 engines are cheaper then 5 engines. As you will be able to "mass produce" the engine it will be cheaper per single engine.

[Fastcake]

Yes and 19 engines are cheaper then 5 engines. As you will be able to "mass produce" the engine it will be cheaper per single engine.

You don't mass produce 19 engines.

[Kalmake]

Should use two cars like Formula E. Cheaper due to mass production.

[rammsteinfan]

You don't mass produce 19 engines.

 

no you will mass produce 19*2*xteams so Merc would produce atleast 19*2*4=152 engines atleast! That is for F1 standards mass production! Offcourse it is cheaper per engine to build 152 engines then building 40. And not only the manufactor cost goes down but also the development cost due to less reliability testing

[hodgy21]

no you will mass produce 19*2*xteams so Merc would produce atleast 19*2*4=152 engines atleast! That is for F1 standards mass production! Offcourse it is cheaper per engine to build 152 engines then building 40. And not only the manufactor cost goes down but also the development cost due to less reliability testing

Lets say we get a few races in and they decide to use some of their tokens and change the specifications of most of the engine. What will they do with the remaining ≈100 engines?

[Kalmake]

Yes, and it's much cheaper to build another copy than what the customers are paying "per engine". Lot of the bill is development costs etc. that don't go up the more they make.

 

Presumably this fifth engine is on the house or the customer teams would have blocked the change.

[Clatter]

Once again rules are changed mid-season.

Well it's hardly mid-season and this change doesn't disadvantage any teams.

[Jerem]

Well it's hardly mid-season and this change doesn't disadvantage any teams.

It can't help everyone to the same extent, so it must disadvantage someone...

[Newbrray]

Well it's hardly mid-season and this change doesn't disadvantage any teams.

 

but it does provide a get out clause for some (redbull, McLaren) considering they have already lost an engine

[chipmcdonald]

Sanity.  I don't want to watch a war of attrition.  

 

I also don't want the WDC decided by "the guy that had better luck with engines", either.  Ridiculous.

[LORDBYRON]

Good news, for alonso I think.

[pdac]

I think the rationale behind it all is that the original limit was supposed to get them to make reliable systems, but the reality is that, if they kept the original limit, pretty much every team was going to suffer penalties at the end of the season and so would just be an embarrasment to the sport. The rewind is just to avoid this.

[LORDBYRON]

Or was it a real Renault quit threat than made them change 

[Seanspeed]

I'm usually not one for conspricacies but I do wonder if Bernie and/or the FIA are trying to keep Red Bull happy.

[Clatter]

but it does provide a get out clause for some (redbull, McLaren) considering they have already lost an engine

And it could provide other teams with the same get out later in the season.

[shonguiz]

This will probably mean that they are going to push more during the races, who will this benefit to ? The least reliable teams ?

[Clatter]

It can't help everyone to the same extent, so it must disadvantage someone...

That depends on if any of the manufacturers are truly confident that they can do the season on 4 engines. This rule, unlike many in-season changes, is not designed to slow anyone down so I don't think anyone is truly disadvantaged by it.

[rammsteinfan]

Lets say we get a few races in and they decide to use some of their tokens and change the specifications of most of the engine. What will they do with the remaining ≈100 engines?

 

Then you only need to adjust/rebuild these specific parts. In Renault's case they would have to manufactor at most 12 new parts for every engine. And you don't build every engine before the season offcourse. But the engines now a days are +-30 million a year, and 2 extra engine's costs $750K a team according to Lauda in AMuS. 10 years ago with the introduction of the V8 an engine cost around 15-20 million. And they could even develop these engine for every damn race. So what is more cost efficient? Offcourse we live in a damn society that all prices must rise so it is no surprise but still

[Gorma]

Yes and 19 engines are cheaper then 5 engines. As you will be able to "mass produce" the engine it will be cheaper per single engine.

*than

[KnucklesAgain]

Sanity.  I don't want to watch a war of attrition.  

 

I also don't want the WDC decided by "the guy that had better luck with engines", either.  Ridiculous.

 

So basically you don't rate any of the championships until modern reliability which started some time in the 2000s?

[Petroltorque]

Mass produced engines in a prototype formula? Someone has failed to understand the basic tenet of F1. It also puts a lie to the assertion that engine development is frozen. Under these rules each manufacturer can introduce 5 different engines in a season. One hopes that since the 5 engine rule needs unanimous agreement one hopes the smaller outfits insist that they get the 5th engine at no additional charge in exchange for their votes.

[AlexS]

http://www.omnicorse...l-quinto-motore

 

750000Euros is the cost increase if teams go for the 5th engine.

[rammsteinfan]

Mass produced engines in a prototype formula? Someone has failed to understand the basic tenet of F1. It also puts a lie to the assertion that engine development is frozen. Under these rules each manufacturer can introduce 5 different engines in a season. One hopes that since the 5 engine rule needs unanimous agreement one hopes the smaller outfits insist that they get the 5th engine at no additional charge in exchange for their votes.

 

Of Course it is not real mass production and still hand built bull ****. But it is a damn fact that if you build things in larger numbers the cost will drop per item. It will cost less to per item to built 10 engines then to built 2 engines, as you will not cherry pick the engines that much if they only have to run for 1 race. You don't need a 10000 km reliability but only 1500. So the components can be cheaper materials, you can push the design more, and it won't cost a lot more. If you see that Merc is only asking seven hundred and fifty thousand 750000 for 2 engines a team. So instead of 12 engines for 30 Million you will pay 31 million for 14 engines. I talk about 12 engines as 4 season engines and 2 test engines for every car. and now 5 season engines and 2 test engines. So the per engine cost drops from 2.5 Million to 2.2 million an engine. Why does it cost only 750000 to produce 2 more engines a team? Because it is cheaper to produce that engine and the manufactor is fair and does something for the sport by not asking 2.5 million an engine. Of course maybe speaking of Mass production is not correct that is why I put it between " ". And btw you know the smaller teams have nothing to say about it? Only FIA, FOM, Ferrari, Merc, RBR, Williams, Mclaren and Force India.

[Exb]

And btw you know the smaller teams have nothing to say about it? Only FIA, FOM, Ferrari, Merc, RBR, Williams, Mclaren and Force India.

As it will be an in-season rule change then all teams will have to agree for the rules to be changed.

[Lotus53B]

Well, no, it'll need Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault to agree...and the teams to nod sweetly and agree with the suppliers

[Exb]

Well, no, it'll need Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault to agree...and the teams to nod sweetly and agree with the suppliers

No - all the teams will have to agree, and with an added cost some may not be able to afford it, also someone like Force India, or Sauber may think they have a better chance of grabbing better results on 4 engines if they think there is a chance they can do the season on 4 and if others (Renault runners/McLaren) end up with penalties later on in the season.

[Petroltorque]

Vested interest means in season rule changes are difficult to achieve as it requires unanimous agreement. All can be smoothed though if Ecclestones bribes the smaller teams a few quid.

Edited by Petroltorque, 28 March 2015 - 06:30.

[SanDiegoGo]

So where are we on this? i hear people talking of penalties after they've used 4 PU. i've not heard anyone talk about this 5th power unit rule. did it happen?