43 replies to this topic

[jee]

I understand that the race control is more often going to bring out the Safety Car when a car needs a tow, but the execution today was totally absurd.

 

The towing vehicle was on the way to the car before the Safety Car was even out on the track. 

After that, all cars that were exiting the pits were able to pass the scene with a higher speed than the Safety Car.

 

All together this seems like a badly adopted rule from american motorsports that is not working as intended.

 

They would need to

1) wait with calling the towing vehicle until all cars are lined up behind the pace car and

2) close the pitlane until the towing vehicle has left the track again.

Edited by jee, 29 March 2015 - 17:26.

[Bleu]

I was actually thinking that Ericsson's spin and recovery truck entering is a kind of incident where the new virtual safety car is the best solution.

[Imateria]

Yes, completely pointless safety car that. Why on earth make all this fuss and spend all that time setting up the virtual safety car if your then not going to use it in a situation it was specifically designed for?

[sosidge]

I was very uncomfortable when I saw the crane coming out before the safety car had been called - race officials should not bring out the heavy plant until the cars are under SC conditions.

This needs to be done better in future.

[quaint]

The towing vehicle was on the way to the car before the Safety Car was even out on the track. 

 

They have to slow down the moment safety car is announced, regardless of where they are on track. Yellow flags (even doubled) have no such requirements.

 

They could've used virtual SC, but I doubt it would've made that much of a difference (and that any of that would've made the race better).

Edited by quaint, 29 March 2015 - 17:32.

[ExFlagMan]

I was wondering how long it would take before someone complained about a SC, given that the consensus of opinion on here after last year was that the SC car should always be sent out before anything or anyone went out from behind the barrier to a stranded car

[Disgrace]

Did Raikkonen's tyre carcass all over turn four have anything to do with the decision? They could have already been considering it prior to Ericsson's off.

[jee]

I was wondering how long it would take before someone complained about a SC, given that the consensus of opinion on here after last year was that the SC car should always be sent out before anything or anyone went out from behind the barrier to a stranded car

Someone did not read the opening post.

[Risil]

I didn't have a problem with it. No one lost a big lead that they'd earned, and it threw up a big strategy call that enlivened the rest of the race.

 

After Bianchi's accident last year I'm willing to accept more intervention.

[August]

I think that would've been a VSC situation.

 

Unless there was debris somewhere else on the track they picked off during the SC period.

[cpbell]

I was actually thinking that Ericsson's spin and recovery truck entering is a kind of incident where the new virtual safety car is the best solution.

Wondered the same thing myself.  I do find myself wondering whether Charlie's instant decision-making isn't quite what it once was.  Certainly, something needed to be done with a recovery vehicle on the fringes of the gravel, but to send out the safety car seemed odd (unless it was to recover the remains of Raikkonen's tyre).

[Atreiu]

Marshalls and a crane on the edge of a track? Please bring out the real or virtual SC. I don't ever want another accident happening around them.

[ConsiderAndGo]

The safety car was the correct decision. Can't have what looked like 10 or so marshalls and a crane at the tracks edge under racing conditions.

It was uncomfortable watching a couple of cars glide by whilst under yellows.

[Afterburner]

I understand that the race control is more often going to bring out the Safety Car when a car needs a tow, but the execution today was totally absurd.

 

The towing vehicle was on the way to the car before the Safety Car was even out on the track. 

After that, all cars that were exiting the pits were able to pass the scene with a higher speed than the Safety Car.

 

All together this seems like a badly adopted rule from american motorsports that is not working as intended.

 

They would need to

1) wait with calling the towing vehicle until all cars are lined up behind the pace car and

2) close the pitlane until the towing vehicle has left the track again.

The execution of the rule was indeed absurd in that all of the recovery personnel were deployed before a safety car was thrown (though that may not have been race control's fault), but the concept of throwing a safety car for a beached vehicle in a high-speed runoff area is completely justified. Too many things can go wrong quickly in that situation. Combined with a lot of debris from a shredded tyre elsewhere on the track, I thought it was the correct decision.

 

Also no need to take a dig at 'American motorsports' as a whole (which will deploy the safety car when the pack needs to be bunched up so work can safely occur on a stranded vehicle or the track by trained recovery teams) when what you really mean to say is 'NASCAR' (which will arbitrarily deploy the safety car in desperate ratings grabs not entirely unlike those episodes of Star Trek in which Kirk suspiciously seemed to encounter a higher-than-normal percentage of half-naked space babes). It's easy to say that the marshals should just operate without the safety car to cover them until something like Germany last year goes horribly wrong and we're faced with another Tom Pryce incident, especially given the tendency of this generation's drivers to disregard yellow flags. I for one see no problem with the use of the safety car as it was and presumably will continue to be used.

[Nonesuch]

They would need to
1) wait with calling the towing vehicle until all cars are lined up behind the pace car and
2) close the pitlane until the towing vehicle has left the track again.

 
Deployment of the safety car is always going to be tricky. This wasn't the finest example of how to do it, and perhaps it wasn't even an incident that warranted such an immediate intervention by the marshals. Rather than introducing more and new rules, these kinds of situations can easily be avoided if the drivers respect the FIA's yellow flag rules and its representatives care enough to enforce them.

Edited by Nonesuch, 29 March 2015 - 18:02.

[Crossmax]

Clearly a decision affected by Bianchi's incident. Better safe than sorry, and it didn't stay out for long. I don't see any reason for a debate.

 

Edit: remember what happened to Alonso last year at Sepang. That accident unfolded long before T1, so yellows at T1 might not have prevented his off.

Edited by Crossmax, 29 March 2015 - 18:09.

[superden]

Should have used the virtual SC.

[Henrik B]

I don't get when you are supposed to use the VSC if this wasn't the right situation for it.

[redreni]

After what happened last year, I thought it had been determined that tractor cranes and the like would not enter the track or any exposed trackside area under waved yellows, because there was a demonstrable need for drivers to slow down a good deal more than they were doing under local yellows. Local slow zones were proposed but we ended up with the virtual safety car because Whiting essentially said he either couldn't be bothered or is too incompetent to police local slow zones.

 

So now any incident requiring a tractor crane can no longer be dealt with under local yellows, so therefore has to be assessed according to whether it requires a VSC or a full SC (or a red flag). From a safety point of view, the only differenced between the VSC and the SC are (1) that the SC bunches the pack and therefore provides clear periods of time where people can go onto the track knowing that there is no race traffic coming past (not relevant to the recovery of the Sauber as access to the track wasn't needed for this), and (2) the speed of the cars.

 

Does anyone know if the VSC deltas are the same as the SC deltas (i.e. faster than the speed the actual SC does)?

 

When the SC is deployed there are two speeds - the delta speed you do as you catch the SC (provided you're not stuck behind a car that knows it will have to stack and is therefore cheating by running positive on the delta to impede those behind), and the speed you do once you've caught the SC. This is why the SC distorts the race.

 

When the VSC is deployed there is only one speed, but what I'd like to know is whether the VSC deltas are the same as the SC deltas, or if they're set slower to simulate the speed of the actual SC? If the latter, then it would be both fairer and (from the point of view of recovering the Sauber) safer to use the VSC for this, because everyone would immediately be restricted to a slower delta than they would if the SC had been deployed but nobody had yet caught it. If the former, then I guess it makes no difference from the point of view of the safety of having the tractor crane and marshals in the turn 1 gravel trap.

 

Either way, I suspect Disgrace is spot on - they needed at least a VSC because they were sending a tractor crane trackside, but they opted for a full SC because they wanted to take the opportunity to clear the debris from the lap 1 punctures, which means sending individual marshals onto the track at various points around the course, possibly to do jobs that take a little while like picking up many small pieces of rubber, sweeping the track, etc. That's better done under the full SC once the field has formed up.

Edited by redreni, 29 March 2015 - 21:30.

[joshb]

Why not have them 'slow zones' like at Le Mans last year?

I know they can be dangerous wen applied at high speed sections, but why not have it start at te hairpin and run right until after Turn 2?

[Spillage]

Did Raikkonen's tyre carcass all over turn four have anything to do with the decision? They could have already been considering it prior to Ericsson's off.

Yes, that's what I was wondering. That's a high-speed section and there was a lot of debris.

 

EDIT: On another note, how pleasant it was to see a dumb mistake punished with a good old-fashioned beaching in a gravel trap.

Edited by Spillage, 29 March 2015 - 22:12.

[ANF]

There was another incident in Friday practice (was it outside of T9 or T12?) where they were very quick with sending out the recovery vehicle – and there was only double waved yellows. If it didn't merit a red flag, why not use the virtual safety car delta speeds in practice too?

[johnmhinds]

Did Raikkonen's tyre carcass all over turn four have anything to do with the decision? They could have already been considering it prior to Ericsson's off.

 

 

I saw some of the cars still running over debris from Kimi's tyre later in the race, so I don't think they cleared all of that away under the safety car.

[tmekt]

There was another incident in Friday practice (was it outside of T9 or T12?) where they were very quick with sending out the recovery vehicle – and there was only double waved yellows. If it didn't merit a red flag, why not use the virtual safety car delta speeds in practice too?

It did merit a red flag as far as I recall.

[CoolBreeze]

They made the call to avoid another Suzuka incident. 

[ExFlagMan]

I thought these were supposed to be the best drivers in the world!
If they cannot drive safely in ideal conditions, along one of the longest straights in the calendar with good visibility into the danger zone and slow down enough to safely negotiate the corner whilst a car is retrieved from a gravel trap under yellow flags then maybe we need to change the format to a single car at a time sprint event or else red flag the race every time a car goes off.
In addition, if they cannot be trusted to slow down for yellow flag for a situation like that, then they presumably cannot be trusted to slow down for any yellow flag situation, such as a car stranded sideways on across the track on the exit of a blind corner.

[SealTheDiffuser]

I thought these were supposed to be the best drivers in the world!
If they cannot drive safely in ideal conditions, along one of the longest straights in the calendar with good visibility into the danger zone and slow down enough to safely negotiate the corner whilst a car is retrieved from a gravel trap under yellow flags then maybe we need to change the format to a single car at a time sprint event or else red flag the race every time a car goes off.
In addition, if they cannot be trusted to slow down for yellow flag for a situation like that, then they presumably cannot be trusted to slow down for any yellow flag situation, such as a car stranded sideways on across the track on the exit of a blind corner.

 

they used to drive too fast under normal yellow/double yellow, this is why we have the VSC now...

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I must admit, my first thought was the VSC would come out. It is entirely possible that they went for the real SC so they could clear puncture debris a bit safer, in which case fair enough. However if the puncture debris plus Ericssons spin wasn't the reason they went for the real SC rather than the VSC then I can only imagine it was because he was too close to the track for them to plump for the VSC

[ExFlagMan]

they used to drive too fast under normal yellow/double yellow, this is why we have the VSC now...

So penalise them for it - like they do most other levels of motorsport. I'm sure a race or two on the naughty step and it would get through to them.

[brr]

So penalise them for it - like they do most other levels of motorsport. I'm sure a race or two on the naughty step and it would get through to them.

 

Bianchi was already penalized for it.

[Tourgott]

Anyone remembering when Schumacher urged the marshalls to push him back on track when he stuck in the gravel? Those were the days.

[ANF]

So penalise them for it - like they do most other levels of motorsport. I'm sure a race or two on the naughty step and it would get through to them.

I was watching this Monaco incident the other day. Had there been race bans and more cars on track, Eddie Irvine could have been handed two consecutive race wins.

[SealTheDiffuser]

So penalise them for it - like they do most other levels of motorsport. I'm sure a race or two on the naughty step and it would get through to them.

 

there wasn't the rule how much to slow down, so now with VSC we have all to penalise them...

[BullHead]

I thought the crane driver acted well. He appeared to be deliberately positioning himself in a spot behind the car, and less in an open pathway for anything that may come off on the turn

[Nonesuch]

they used to drive too fast under normal yellow/double yellow, this is why we have the VSC now...

 

And why did the F1 drivers do so? As much as I like the idea of the Virtual Safety Car, it makes little sense to keep piling on solutions when the cause is left unchanged.

 

The drivers care more about their own race or qualifying than the safety of the marshals. Given the circumstances this is understandable, if not necessarily excusable. To guarantee the safety of the marshals the FIA has drawn up a Sporting Code that explains in very clear and simple terms what the drivers must do when flag X or Y is waved.

 

there wasn't the rule how much to slow down, so now with VSC we have all to penalise them...

 

There absolutely was, and is.

 

The Sporting Code is supposed to be enforced by the race director, and this is where we meet mister Charlie 'five tenths' Whiting. He prefers his own 'slow down by 0,5 seconds compared to your best sector time' (as reported prior to the 2014 season, emphasis added) to the Sporting Code's order to 'reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop.'

 

Thankfully, this has not (yet) resulted in any serious accidents. The last marshal to have died (at the 2013 Canadian Grand Prix) was the victim of a rather unfortunate mishap. But there have been plenty of close calls, and Bianchi's crash at Suzuka could have easily ended up far more tragic than it already did, as there were several Japanese marshals walking around within feet of where he hit their recovery vehicle.

Edited by Nonesuch, 30 March 2015 - 10:47.

[TheCaptain]

I agree - what's the point in the VSC if when at the perfect time to use it, they don't?

 

Virtual safety car should be for when cars need to be slowed down dramatically in one area only when there is an off track incident being dealt with.

 

Safety car should be for when the cars need to be bunched up when there is debris on the track that needs clearing so to give the marshalls a window to get on track and clear it.   

 

I've always found the delta times in parts of the track where there is nothing going on a bit strange.    It just means when there is on-track debris it takes longer for the cars to bunch up and therefore longer to clear it all up.   

[anneomoly]

And why did the F1 drivers do so? As much as I like the idea of the Virtual Safety Car, it makes little sense to keep piling on solutions when the cause is left unchanged.

 

The drivers care more about their own race or qualifying than the safety of the marshals. Given the circumstances this is understandable, if not necessarily excusable. To guarantee the safety of the marshals the FIA has drawn up a Sporting Code that explains in very clear and simple terms what the drivers must do when flag X or Y is waved.

 

 

There absolutely was, and is.

 

The Sporting Code is supposed to be enforced by the race director, and this is where we meet mister Charlie 'five tenths' Whiting. He prefers his own 'slow down by 0,5 seconds compared to your best sector time' (as reported prior to the 2014 season, emphasis added) to the Sporting Code's order to 'reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop.'

 

Thankfully, this has not (yet) resulted in any serious accidents. The last marshal to have died (at the 2013 Canadian Grand Prix) was the victim of a rather unfortunate mishap. But there have been plenty of close calls, and Bianchi's crash at Suzuka could have easily ended up far more tragic than it already did, as there were several Japanese marshals walking around within feet of where he hit their recovery vehicle.

 

I'm not saying Race Control couldn't do better, but when you've got drivers in briefing asking again and again for a number to put on 'significantly' so they don't lose out compared to their competiters the blame's not exactly one sided.. I'm guessing that if there hadn't been a number on it the lassez faire attitude would be the 'wave to show you're slowing while putting your foot down' attitude because the feeling was that drivers could survive anything, and marshals weren't thought of at all.

[redreni]

There was another incident in Friday practice (was it outside of T9 or T12?) where they were very quick with sending out the recovery vehicle – and there was only double waved yellows. If it didn't merit a red flag, why not use the virtual safety car delta speeds in practice too?

 

Are you thinking of Hamilton's breakdown in FP1?

 

I was a bit confused when watching that because the graphics didn't show the track status (green, yellow or red) in the way they used to, but I assumed the session had been red-flagged. The track certainly went quiet. The clock was still ticking down, but that's standard practice when there's a red flag in free practice (unlike in qualy, when the clock would stop for a red flag).

 

You are correct, though, that the tractor came out very quickly, when cars were still coming past on a fast section of track. Not only that, when Hamilton's car was picked up by the tractor crane, it then drove forward across the grass and gravel with marshals running immediately ahead of the tractor's wheels, out of sight of the tractor driver, trying to keep the Mercedes steady. It was very much the "Montreal" method which, as we know from the recent fatal accident report, is not the recommended way to recover a car using a tractor crane.

[Mauseri]

I wonder how much did MA send MK to make ME spin out and RD to make SC go out.

[D1rtyHarry]

I must say, even on the standard FOM feed, as soon as he'd spun SAFETY CAR was on that **** like lightning!!!

[ANF]

Are you thinking of Hamilton's breakdown in FP1?

 

I was a bit confused when watching that because the graphics didn't show the track status (green, yellow or red) in the way they used to, but I assumed the session had been red-flagged. The track certainly went quiet. The clock was still ticking down, but that's standard practice when there's a red flag in free practice (unlike in qualy, when the clock would stop for a red flag).

 

You are correct, though, that the tractor came out very quickly, when cars were still coming past on a fast section of track. Not only that, when Hamilton's car was picked up by the tractor crane, it then drove forward across the grass and gravel with marshals running immediately ahead of the tractor's wheels, out of sight of the tractor driver, trying to keep the Mercedes steady. It was very much the "Montreal" method which, as we know from the recent fatal accident report, is not the recommended way to recover a car using a tractor crane.

Yeah, that's the one. At turn 9, where lots of drivers had problems under braking.

I, too, was reminded of the Montreal accident. One could see the marshal at the right rear of the Mercedes looking at the wheel of the tractor, desperately trying to stay away from it. It was quite painful to watch.

[Peat]

Should have been a VSC. 

But, that whole to-do enabled us to see a non-Merc win. So 'YAY!'.

[HoldenRT]

They made the call to avoid another Suzuka incident. 

 

But the race was dry.

[Tomecek]

I believe race control is going to use VSC as they feel appropriate