46 replies to this topic

[Otaku]

 

eO PP03 technical specifications:

• All wheel drive
• Six YASA-400 electric motors with eO controllers
• Peak power 1020 kW / peak torque 2160 Nm <<< around 1370 HP 
• 50 kWh lithium-ion battery pack with BMS
• Single reduction gear / limited slip axle differentials
• Steel tubular spaceframe with carbon fibre body
• Electrically assisted power steering
• 4-way adjustable shock absorbers
• Ventilated brake discs Ø378 mm front / Ø330 mm rear
• 320/710 R18 slick tyres / 13” × 18” wheels
• Kerb weight: 1200 kg
• Top speed: 260 km/h

 

 

http://www.electrica...-at-pikes-peak/

 

 

Interesting...

Edited by Otaku, 02 April 2015 - 22:57.

[oetzi]

I'm going to build a funicular and put an end to the controversy.

Edited by oetzi, 02 April 2015 - 23:24.

[superden]

From a technical standpoint electric gizmos like this are amazing and reading about them genuinely interests me.

That said, from a spectator standpoint, it just doesn't 'excite' me. It's rather like processor technology. It's interesting, but it doesn't have a shred of visceral appeal.

Edited by superden, 02 April 2015 - 23:23.

[Dolph]

What's the reason it might win?

[johnmhinds]

1020kW is the peak power, but how long would the battery last if they were using that?

 

 

What's the reason it might win?

 

 

 

Last years winner in the electric category only had a 450kW engine.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuI8LM7VkFA

 

If the stats on this car are correct it should blow that out of the water.

Edited by johnmhinds, 02 April 2015 - 23:35.

[FPV GTHO]

Single reduction gear will dull the performance somewhat

[jonpollak]

Flights to COS are cheap. What's the date Otaku?

[Otaku]

June 28

[ClubmanGT]

Awesome, I get to be "that guy" and say Pikes Peak has no real appeal since they paved most of it. Let me know when an electric car wins a major gravel event and isn't just a defacto prototype racer.

[BRG]

1370hp in 1200kg chassis isn't a very impressive power to weight ratio.

[chunder27]

Really?

 

In what world exactly do you live fella?

 

That is the weight of a WRX car and then have 600hp and are pretty quick?

 

for the type of event it is doing I would imagine the Peugeot Loeb used had a lower ratio, he was maybe 1000kg and something like 750 hp?

Edited by chunder27, 03 April 2015 - 13:09.

[Tenmantaylor]

Don't forgot the drive train efficiency gains a 4wd electric car potentially has over an IC paired with mechanical 4wd system desiring multiple gears and draggy differentials. Potentially makes the motor power output less of a talking point.

Electric makes a lot of sense for pikes peak. Acceleration is probably more important than top speed at pikes peak making the instant torque of an AC drivetrain attractive. Electric motors aren't affected by altitude either meaning no loss of power as it climbs.

The only current technical downside to electric is battery technology. When that's sorted these discussions will quickly become pointless. We may miss the screams and wails and whooshes and firespitting element of IC race cars. Gear heads may lament the smell of oil and unburnt fuel but there's nothing stopping their piston fidfling whilst electric cars become the future of speed and efficiency as well as ecology. Steam engines and traction engines are still enthusiasticly built and tinkered with by men in flat caps and soot covered faces and I'm sure we'll still have men playing with ICs in their oil stained overalls whilst the guys with laptops and labcoats speed their way into the future.

[superden]

The guys with laptops and labcoats speed their way into the future.

I'm sure they will.

They're welcome to it.

[Prost1997T]

Pikes Peak hasn't been interesting since it was fully paved. What was essentially an LMP1 car got the fastest time last year, for crying out loud.

[pup]

Why is "may" in quotes?  I don't get the insinuation - is the OP implying that the race is rigged for them to win, or that they don't really have a chance?  I'm confused.     

[Tenmantaylor]

I agree but can't see why the surface would make much difference to the requirements regarding AC vs IC. Total power used would probably go up making it slightly longer before the battery win was possible but it would only be delaying the inevitable.

[chunder27]

Pikes Peak has become a focal point for unlimited electric sports vehicles, and a lot of it is to do with Tajima

 

he is probably the one driving the idea and at least teh cars are interestingm unlike Formula E which leaves most fans cold.

 

There are very few places and events where an electric car can compete really, and this is one, there are very few one off events other than record challenges and things like hillclimbs where a short amount of running can get you a large amount of publicity

[KnucklesAgain]

I agree but can't see why the surface would make much difference to the requirements regarding AC vs IC. Total power used would probably go up making it slightly longer before the battery win was possible but it would only be delaying the inevitable.

 

Less traction when unpaved might make much higher torque less of an advantage?

[BRG]

Really?

 

In what world exactly do you live fella?

 

That is the weight of a WRX car and then have 600hp and are pretty quick?

 

for the type of event it is doing I would imagine the Peugeot Loeb used had a lower ratio, he was maybe 1000kg and something like 750 hp?

A world where you don't compare an open sports prototype with a road car?

 

Try comparing it with genuinely comparable vehicles and come back and tell me it is impressive.  1200kg?  A LMP1 is 870kg.  And nearly as powerful.  You could build a special using a Radical chassis weighing in at 500kg or so and with a 600hp motor have a far better P2W ratio.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Gear heads may lament the smell of oil and unburnt fuel but there's nothing stopping their piston fidfling whilst electric cars become the future of speed and efficiency as well as ecology. Steam engines and traction engines are still enthusiasticly built and tinkered with by men in flat caps and soot covered faces and I'm sure we'll still have men playing with ICs in their oil stained overalls whilst the guys with laptops and labcoats speed their way into the future.

 

And I don't mind spending a day at the track drinking old-fashioned beer, covered in dirt and sweat, oogling the hot chicks, my ears deafened by loud prehistoric engines.I am driven by emotion and the need for gratification. I live and work in the high-tech world, but on my free time I seek out fun.

[Gyno]

Electric makes a lot of sense for pikes peak. Acceleration is probably more important than top speed at pikes peak making the instant torque of an AC drivetrain attractive. Electric motors aren't affected by altitude either meaning no loss of power as it climbs.
 

 

But there is HUGE loss of power when the battery runs out of juice near the top of pike peak.

It will have full power for the first few minutes when the battery is fully juiced but then it will start to run out of power as it nears the top.

On top of that it weights over a ton.

 

For instance Loebs car was only 875kg and had 652 kW; 887 PS.

[johnmhinds]

If you want them to have more batteries and bigger electric engines then that's going to result in heavier cars.

[Kalmake]

Why six engines? Two front and four rear?

 

Engine manufacturer promises 85kW continuous power. 6*85=510 sounds like a better match with the battery capacity and track length.

 

Nordschleife is about same length as Pikes Peak. 1400m elevation on the latter should eat about 5kWh.

 

Nordschleife lap with 40kWh of batteries: https://www.youtube....h?v=OHNA0Wyze_4

[dgsg]

I'm going to build a funicular and put an end to the controversy.

Would you settle for a cog railway? A bit on the slow side though.

 

http://www.cograilway.com/

Edited by dgsg, 03 April 2015 - 22:34.

[FPV GTHO]

Don't forgot the drive train efficiency gains a 4wd electric car potentially has over an IC paired with mechanical 4wd system desiring multiple gears and draggy differentials. Potentially makes the motor power output less of a talking point.

I would think without a conventional gearbox it would still lose a lot of wheel torque at lower speeds though.

[AlexLangheck]

Really?
 
In what world exactly do you live fella?
 
That is the weight of a WRX car and then have 600hp and are pretty quick?
 
for the type of event it is doing I would imagine the Peugeot Loeb used had a lower ratio, he was maybe 1000kg and something like 750 hp?

The Peugeot Loeb won in 2013 was 850BHP, and weighed 850kg....

[DrProzac]

Really?

 

In what world exactly do you live fella?

 

That is the weight of a WRX car and then have 600hp and are pretty quick?

 

for the type of event it is doing I would imagine the Peugeot Loeb used had a lower ratio, he was maybe 1000kg and something like 750 hp?

Well, compare that to Turbo era F1 cars from the 80s. Or V10 engined F1 cars in 2000s. Maybe that was the point.

 

On other hand the figure looks very good on paper. And it won't loose power due to the air getting less dense. It will also have higher drivetrain efficiency. And a beneficial power delivery characteristics. Weight distribution may be beneficial. Traction is much simpler because each wheel can be controlled separately. On other hand, will it be able to sustain that high power figure all they way?

 

OP may be right.

Edited by DrProzac, 04 April 2015 - 11:26.

[chipmcdonald]

In my opinion, that is more "Formula 1" than anything in the past 3 years.

 

An electric car without rules?   That doesn't cost half a billion $ to construct?  That goes faster than a Formula E car?

 

That can't be, that's impossible!

 

That is Formula 1: pushing the limits of technology, not pretending you're doing so because you made some hyper-convoluted contraption.

[chipmcdonald]

Single reduction gear will dull the performance somewhat

 

 

Electric motors have a flat torque curve.

[chipmcdonald]

Pikes Peak has become a focal point for unlimited electric sports vehicles,

 

 

 This alone make it interesting.

 

 Although I'd say that the Isle of Man TT seems to be doing well in the same respect.

[FPV GTHO]

Electric motors have a flat torque curve.

torque at the motor doesnt matter, torque at the wheel does. 

[chipmcdonald]

torque at the motor doesnt matter, torque at the wheel does. 

 

 I guess these guys are just idiots and should just strap a Turbo 400 with a B&M shiftkit on it. 

[Otaku]

torque at the motor doesnt matter, torque at the wheel does. 

 

If the torque curve is completely flat, it's exactly the same if you have 2000 gears or just 1. In the end, POWER matters.

[Kalmake]

Torque curve is completely flat until it isn't. You can find the info in the link I posted.

 

Electric engines also have an efficiency curve which isn't flat at all.

 

Formula E uses 5 gears.

[FPV GTHO]

If the torque curve is completely flat, it's exactly the same if you have 2000 gears or just 1. In the end, POWER matters.

Do you know how torque multiplies through a reduction gear?

[275 GTB-4]

Is the track smooth enough to send a current F1 car up? That would be an interesting exercise...especially a full KERS run
 
PS are the batteries included in electric cars?

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 06 April 2015 - 23:11.

[shonguiz]

Why is the top speed so low despite that titanesque power ?

[Amphicar]

Why is the top speed so low despite that titanesque power ?

Because the Pikes Peak course is mostly corners without long straights - good acceleration is more important than an unusable top speed.

[scolbourne]

I agree that an electric car will win Pikes Peak within 5 years. I would not bet on it for this year. In 2013 they managed 5th overall and last year they managed 2nd overall and in 2013 electrics were first in the motor bikes. My prediction is third this year but obviously it depends on the ic competition and the budgets and skills of the electric teams.

I follow the developments of the electric bikes at the IOM TT  races with interest and you can see that the ic bikes have stagnated whilst the electric bikes are if anything accelerating their developments and average speed. Within three years they should be equaling the ic lap times (over just one lap currently). When this happens, with fast battery swaps they could possibly race with the ic bikes.

 

Electric
=========
2009 87.0 mph
2010 96.8 mph
2011 99.6 mph
2012 104.0 mph
2013 109.7 mph
2014 117mph
IC engine
===========
1926 70mph
1937 90mph
1953 93.33mph
1957 100mph
1967 108.77mph
1976 112.27mph
1980 115mph
1989 121.34 mph
2013 131.671mph

2014 132.298 mph.

Edited by scolbourne, 08 April 2015 - 07:08.

[Kalmake]

ICE entries have to be rubbish for an EV to win. Batteries are too heavy still. 1:1 power-to-weight ratio is far away if we look at sustained or average output.

[paipa]

ICE entries have to be rubbish for an EV to win. Batteries are too heavy still. 1:1 power-to-weight ratio is far away if we look at sustained or average output.

The advantage of batteries is that you only need to install as much as it takes you to the finish line. If the race is half as long, you can shed half your battery weight or double its power, doubling power to weight ratio either way. Therefore power-to-weight isn't fixed for batteries like for engines.

Currently Tesla's 233 Wh/kg would translate to 233*60/9 = 1.55 kW/kg at full output over 9 minutes which is an RX-8's engine before drivetrain losses. Over 4-5 minutes it could already challenge some of the finest engines out there. I don't think we're far away.

[scolbourne]

ICE entries have to be rubbish for an EV to win. Batteries are too heavy still. 1:1 power-to-weight ratio is far away if we look at sustained or average output.

I think just by looking at the results from the last few years you will see that electric is catching up.

 

Sébastien Loeb achieved 8:13.878 in 2013 and the best electric run was Greg Tracy 9:08.188 last year. My target for electric is to beat the  record time currently with Loeb rather than to win the event.
In 2013 the electrics achieved 9:46.530 and in 2012  10:15.380 . I would expect a time of around 8:40 this year and probably 8:15 in 2016. By then the ic cars record could have been pushed even lower.

[Kalmake]

The advantage of batteries is that you only need to install as much as it takes you to the finish line. If the race is half as long, you can shed half your battery weight or double its power, doubling power to weight ratio either way. Therefore power-to-weight isn't fixed for batteries like for engines.

Good point about p:w, but calling any of that an advantage is spin. If gasoline weighed much more, then it would have this same "advantage"! As it is, the run takes so little fuel they don't have much to gain by efficiency.

[Otaku]

Do you know how torque multiplies through a reduction gear?

 

Read what I wrote. POWER matters, not torque. And power does not change with gearing. You halve your speed, double your torque, power remains the same.

[DrProzac]

ICE entries have to be rubbish for an EV to win. Batteries are too heavy still. 1:1 power-to-weight ratio is far away if we look at sustained or average output.

True, I thought the battery has bigger capacity. It hasn't got enough capacity to sustain that power output for the whole lap. Though the average power output can be higher than what the capacity suggests due to regenerative braking and the fact that not all of the lap is full throttle. 

[FPV GTHO]

Read what I wrote. POWER matters, not torque. And power does not change with gearing. You halve your speed, double your torque, power remains the same.

They both matter, but I really dont think you get it. My original point was they would feel flat with a single gear. Perhaps they feel with 2000nm and a low top speed they have it covered, but if you took an engine with half the torque but a simple 3 speed gearbox (1st 3:1, 2nd 2:1, 3rd 1:1) you would be seeing 50% more torque at low speed and it would feel a lot more lively, even with less torque at higher speed.

[275 GTB-4]

What I wonder about is tyres...to me a smooth transmitter of power like an electric motor may not get the heat required quickly enough into them when compared to an overpowered ICE