154 replies to this topic

[August]

Some of the F1 host countries have big human rights issues. But how does that affect your perception of F1?

 

One can say politics and sports should not mix, and a country's human rights aren't an issue of the series. But in these cases, politics and sports do mix. Governments use events like a Grand Prix as a way to promote the country, to hide the negative publicity those countries are getting, very much because of the same governments. And I hate how F1 is enabling that for them. I have to admit, my opinion might be different if those bad-human-rights GPs were classic races. Then it'd feel like those countries deserve to be in the calendar but now they are there just because they pay so much for a chance to promote themselves.

Edited by August, 08 April 2015 - 12:50.

[Elba]

Doesn't effect my perception or enjoyment of F1 one bit.

The whole world does business with the countries you mentioned, so why should F1 be different?

 

Shining example of double standards (or perhaps honesty  ) is your statement that your opinion might be different if it involved "classic" tracks.

[alframsey]

I hate the fact that a country has questionable human rights records but should that affect F1? Not in my opinion. Every country on earth has questionable ethics surrounding something; I mean here in the U.K. we had the issue of extraordinary rendition, something I find abhorrent, but we don't call for F1 to take a stand in regard to that. It's easy to view things from our (often) western bubble and ignore the fact our own nations aren't exactly squeaky clean.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it's mostly relevant if there are things happening while the race is underway(to an extant Russia last year, particularly regarding EU sanctions) and especially if it directly involves the race(ie Bahrain).

[Loops]

In the next two weeks, there are the GPs of China and Bahrain. Those, alongside Russia, are obviously the F1 host countries with the biggest human rights issues. But how does that affect your perception of F1?

 

 

 

For who? Who gets to say what are the "biggest human rights issues"? It all depends on your perception and politics. Yes sports are used to boost a country's profile, but there's also an increasing attempt to use sports as a soft power to enforce a particular world view, which is an issue in itself.

 

I've no problem with F1 being in any of the countries listed.

Edited by Loops, 08 April 2015 - 01:41.

[Afterburner]

Governments use events like a Grand Prix as a way to promote the country, to hide the negative publicity those countries are getting, very much because of the same governments.

I don't think they're fooling anyone.

[August]

Shining example of double standards (or perhaps honesty  ) is your statement that your opinion might be different if it involved "classic" tracks.

 

It's just the less political nature of such events. I'm a lot more positive about Russia hosting the Hockey World Ch'ships next year than Russia hosting F1. Why? Because Russia are a big hockey nation. They'd be hosting the Hockey Worlds even if there weren't a propaganda campaign by Putin. That couldn't necessarily be said about F1.

[Fastcake]

I think it's mostly relevant if there are things happening while the race is underway(to an extant Russia last year, particularly regarding EU sanctions) and especially if it directly involves the race(ie Bahrain).

It's certainly the most pertinent when there's tanks on the streets. F1 doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it's got a bad enough reputation as it is. Going to countries under sanction is asking for trouble.

[Nonesuch]

The hosts of the races do not affect my view of F1, but I was disappointed it took so long to cancel the 2011 Bahrain race. Short of all-out war or natural disaster that was as obvious a case as any that it was not a good idea to race in a particular state. I recognize that representatives of the hosting state will seek to use the F1 event to highlight themselves, but I've been to enough events not to let those attempts bother me all that much. If anything it's usually good for a laugh or two; as if one can bamboozle the world by standing on an F1 podium. Please.

 

I'll leave your assertion that Bahrain and the People's Republic of China 'obviously' have bigger 'issues' with human rights than all other host nations aside, because the moderators have in the past not appreciated such discussions in the Racing Comments forum.

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 April 2015 - 22:18.

[OvDrone]

Yes it does affect my views on F1 in a negative way. I have the same issue with Football and the Olympics.

 

But I still goddamn watch the race.

 

To anyone who says 'politics have nothing to do with F1', just rewatch last year's Russian Grand Prix. That **** was pathetic.

[hamilton10000]

Not trying to be offensive or anything like that but to be honest I don't really care where the race is held and what the human rights or political situation is. All I care about is whether the track is good and therefore creates good races. It could be held in North Korea for all I care, all I am interested in is the racing.

Edited by hamilton10000, 07 April 2015 - 22:21.

[YoungGun]

Is discrimination considered a Human Right? I'll let it at that ... without pointing any fingers!

[Scuderia312]

I answered "Host countries politics don't affect my perception of F1" but if you are following F1Fanatic blog/website then you will learn how much their chief editor was going crazy about Bahrain 2012 and even cancellled their Predictions round

[jonpollak]

The world's a mess. What's the big deal about a car race?

Jp

[Chick0]

Maybe we should be cancelling Silverstone the next time the UK starts another illegal war or illegal bombing campaign?  

[scheivlak]

Is discrimination considered a Human Right? I'll let it at that ... without pointing any fingers!

Why not have a look yourself?

 

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

[teejay]

Every country has dirty laundry - should we just host 20 races on Antarctica?

[HoldenRT]

F1 has enough internal issues that it should focus on first, before worrying about other countries business and politics and trying to influence that.  Mow your own lawn and tidy up the bushes before trying to mow someone else's.

[Lazy]

I think it's a bit rich to highlight certain countries human rights issues whilst the USA, UK and their buddies in the west are laying waste to the world.

[SanDiegoGo]

western attitudes to this sort of this brings a whole new level to the phrase 'people in glass houses...'

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Many nations can be criticized for ethical transgressions. But sport has different sides. In some cases it has been used to veto, and not participate as a sign. But sport also allows different nations to look at each other with less hostility. There are valid reasons why Formula One should not go to such nations as Russia, China, Britain, USA, and Canada. But a worse thing to do is to close your eyes, and not see the positives, and enthusiastic fans enjoying a race. If we do so, our perception of those people changes, they are no longer faceless but in many ways just like us, ordinary people.

[HP]

This year at Melbourne people were booing a local politican. No?

 

Enough said.

[SenorSjon]

I couldn't care less. For everything there is a own stage. I strongly dislike people who want to use their sport to claim all kinds of things. You see it every Olympic games, World Cup, etc. Every country has issues and it doesn't take much for a group to be offended by something. 

 

Try to watch any Black Pete/Zwarte Piet discussion in the Netherlands and it is a battlefield.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. I'd imagine most countries in the world have a dodgy human rights record of some description, but I don't go thinking "this is bad for F1" or "they shouldn't go there, I'll skip the race as it'll impact on my enjoyment because of their human rights record". It's just not relevant to me, because as I said, most countries in the world probably have a dodgy human rights record (either current or previously)

[brr]

In the next two weeks, there are the GPs of China and Bahrain. Those, alongside Russia, are obviously the F1 host countries with the biggest human rights issues. But how does that affect your perception of F1?

 

One can say politics and sports should not mix, and a country's human rights aren't an issue of the series. But in these cases, politics and sports do mix. Governments use events like a Grand Prix as a way to promote the country, to hide the negative publicity those countries are getting, very much because of the same governments. And I hate how F1 is enabling that for them. I have to admit, my opinion might be different if those bad-human-rights GPs were classic races. Then it'd feel like those countries deserve to be in the calendar but now they are there just because they pay so much for a chance to promote themselves.

 

This message was brought to you by a Made in China keyboard, computer, router, modem, and network equipment.

[Tsarwash]

To those who are saying that politics in a country doesn't affect your enjoyment one bit, how bad would it have to get before you might consider changing your mind ? Obviously invoking Godwins here, but the 1936 Olympics springs to mind as a perfect example. For me, Bahrain is the most recent shameful example, but of course SA in the 70's wasn't a great thing either.
It's a bit hypocritical to criticise China while still embracing trade with the country, and the same with Russia.

[SenorSjon]

When the track is undrivable due to landmines, that would be my limit I guess.

[alframsey]

My point is if you think it's grounds to stop the race in certain countries because of their human rights records, let's not pretend western nations have clean hands. Why stop at Bahrain or China? The US hold people in detention, in disgusting conditions and for an untold number of years with little evidence and often no charge at Guantanamo Bay. Should we hold a race in Austin? Britain was culpable in cases of extraordinary rendition, no Silverstone? Mexico are pretty terrible in the way they run their law enforcement, shall we strike them from the calendar?

It's all very hypocritical, just because we are told our governments treat us as autonomous beings doesn't make it so.

Edited by alframsey, 08 April 2015 - 10:44.

[Guizotia]

It would be nice if they had some principles, or at least paid lip service to some principles.  What they are basically saying is "We have absolutely no principles whatsoever.  It's all about the money.  Let's go racing!"

[ardbeg]

Yes, I do "look down" on the people running the F1 circus because of their cynical approach. "You want to keep the race at [insert classical circuit here] you have to pay more, there are plenty of dictators that are willing to exploit the poor in their own and neighbouring countries".

Bernie does not give a **** about people and Todt and the rest of those around him silently agrees.

 

I try to forget it during the races but F1 is really rotten to the core, we know how Bernie got the commercial rights, how Mosley exposed the deep corruption within FiA to stay in power, Bernies business with CVC and the bribes thrown around. And we know that the competition itself is involves some competitors given  advantages because of their name. 

It is impossible to ignore all that. 

[Buttoneer]

It's quite unfortunate that countries were named in the opening post because it's going to lead to posters mentioning and wishing to discuss others and their place in the list - it already has.

Please do not let details of the actual countries become the point of the discussion. Please try to answer the question in general terms. Do human rights abuses in host countries affect your perception or enjoyment of F1?

[ClubmanGT]

It's quite unfortunate that countries were named in the opening post because it's going to lead to posters mentioning and wishing to discuss others and their place in the list - it already has.

Please do not let details of the actual countries become the point of the discussion. Please try to answer the question in general terms. Do human rights abuses in host countries affect your perception or enjoyment of F1?

 

In general terms, the world is a terrible place, but I do think F1 should show solidarity to the circuit and event staff in the event they are directly targeted. In strictly general terms, of course. 

[tmekt]

Seems to me that having events that provoke international interest in countries that have issues in the said area can be a positive thing as well. They bring a lot of reporters with them which increases the likelihood of the crimes being documented (though I understand that in these cases the countries usually try to strongly restrict the movement and work of the journalists).

[ardbeg]

Seems to me that having events that provoke international interest in countries that have issues in the said area can be a positive thing as well. They bring a lot of reporters with them which increases the likelihood of the crimes being documented (though I understand that in these cases the countries usually try to strongly restrict the movement and work of the journalists).

If the idea is to do marketing for your country you can be sure the first thing they do is a plan for controlling the media coverage. Dictators are good at that nowadays.

[aramos]

Id say most companies and products you come into contact with would be largely connected with a nation that has human rights issues. A lot of the products we use are a direct consequence of those abuses, including child labour.

 

So really, it doesn't concern me all that much. 

[SlickMick]

It's quite unfortunate that countries were named in the opening post because it's going to lead to posters mentioning and wishing to discuss others and their place in the list - it already has.

Please do not let details of the actual countries become the point of the discussion. Please try to answer the question in general terms. Do human rights abuses in host countries affect your perception or enjoyment of F1?

Every country (directly or indirectly) is involved in human rights abuses of one kind or another, so No - doesn't affect my perception of F1. Not being able to discuss specific countries makes the thread redundant and boring so I wont be checking back in here if there isn't any worthwhile debate.

Edited by SlickMick, 08 April 2015 - 12:46.

[August]

It's quite unfortunate that countries were named in the opening post because it's going to lead to posters mentioning and wishing to discuss others and their place in the list - it already has.

Please do not let details of the actual countries become the point of the discussion. Please try to answer the question in general terms. Do human rights abuses in host countries affect your perception or enjoyment of F1?

 

OP edited.

[Nonesuch]

To those who are saying that politics in a country doesn't affect your enjoyment one bit, how bad would it have to get before you might consider changing your mind?

 

If the safety of the participants and spectators cannot be guaranteed to an acceptable degree; as with the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2011 and the Dakar rally.

 

Sport is entertainment. It's best not taken too seriously. It's probably best not associated with political discussions and their possible consequences.

[Fastcake]

If the safety of the participants and spectators cannot be guaranteed to an acceptable degree; as with the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2011 and the Dakar rally.

Sport is entertainment. It's best not taken too seriously. It's probably best not associated with political discussions and their possible consequences.

You can only attempt to disassociate sport and politics when politicians stop associating themselves with sport. As long as F1 keeps accepting money directly from governments, the races will remain a legitimate target for those who wish to highlight human rights in the country, and if it is wise for F1 to jump abroad.

[YoungGun]

 

Sport is entertainment. It's best not taken too seriously. It's probably best not associated with political discussions and their possible consequences.

 

I agree in principle with your statement, however it's hard to over look for example the consequences a certain team owner Donald Sterling brought on.

[SUPRAF1]

It would only affect my perception of F1 if there was a mass boycott of a particular country by businesses and other sporting federations but F1 ignored it and kept racing. 

[ardbeg]

It would only affect my perception of F1 if there was a mass boycott of a particular country by businesses and other sporting federations but F1 ignored it and kept racing. 

I giggled a bit over that - when was the last time business boycotted business?

[GvdG]

Human rights, as in what the west considers them to be? Absolutely zero, nothing. It just got abused way too many times. I've zero confidence anymore in western moralistic "superiority".

 

Human rights, as in having a government which moves the country forward, to make the life of the average person better? Quite a bit.

[Szoelloe]

Some of the F1 host countries have big human rights issues. But how does that affect your perception of F1?

 

It does not affect it in any way.

 

One can say politics and sports should not mix,

 

Yes, one can, and one should say that, exactly.

 

and a country's human rights aren't an issue of the series. But in these cases, politics and sports do mix. Governments use events like a Grand Prix as a way to promote the country, to hide the negative publicity those countries are getting, very much because of the same governments. And I hate how F1 is enabling that for them. I have to admit, my opinion might be different if those bad-human-rights GPs were classic races. Then it'd feel like those countries deserve to be in the calendar but now they are there just because they pay so much for a chance to promote themselves.

 

I have a different perspective on this. I come from a country, where the first couple of F1 events were held under a regime just like - or worse than - the current Chinese one. I was pretty happy about it, just like about everyone else who attended and watched in Hungary. You have to think about the people - the FANS - of F1 and motorsports in general too, who do not deserve the political situation and circumstances they live in, and they do deserve the opportunity of attending an F1 race at their home, at least at the time I really felt that way. I also remember at the sickening feeling the Moscow and LA olympics boycott caused.

 

No, trying to push politics into sport is bad, disgusting, and disruptive. Doesn't really matter who or why, which and to what end. period.

[jurchenking]

Sports and politics should be kept separate.

 

Intervening in other countries' domestic politics via sporting pressure is a violation of their sovereignty.  If the "oppressed" citizens don't like it, they can always choose to leave and migrate elsewhere.  Pro-human rights countries can walk the talk by welcoming dissidents to settle in their lands.

[SUPRAF1]

I giggled a bit over that - when was the last time business boycotted business?

 

Well I don't remember it too well but wasn't there a lot of pressure on businesses and governments to boycott South Africa in the 80's during apartheid?  If there was a similar event today but F1 kept on going then it would be bad  

[ANF]

Every country has dirty laundry - should we just host 20 races on Antarctica?

No, in North Korean concentration camps.

[PayasYouRace]

It's not something that bothers me too much in an F1 sense because its rare that these human rights violations affect the sport directly. I'm actually more bothered by Singapore's chewing gum ban as it would definitely affect me personally than some of the other problems mentioned here.

[ardbeg]

Well I don't remember it too well but wasn't there a lot of pressure on businesses and governments to boycott South Africa in the 80's during apartheid?  If there was a similar event today but F1 kept on going then it would be bad

There is a difference between pressure on business and by business

[ardbeg]

It's not something that bothers me too much in an F1 sense because its rare that these human rights violations affect the sport directly. I'm actually more bothered by Singapore's chewing gum ban as it would definitely affect me personally than some of the other problems mentioned here.

Yes, it would be horrible if human rights violations affected sport... Other way around is OK though since we all know sport is more important than life.