182 replies to this topic

[Rasputin]

....
Formula One has decades of momentum behind it that will keep it as the top series whatever happens.

That's what a lot of people thought, including Ecclestone, but the F1 fanbase is shrinking rapidly, if you go to a sportsbar to watch a race these days, you will find very few people under 30 years of age.

 

If you can find a sportsbar that bothers to show F1 on a Sunday that is. Last time I did I had to ask specifically and was all alone with that screen, while some unheard of soccer-game was totally packed.

 

Wjhen I speak to my teenage son these days, I get the notion that Red Bull is far more famous and interesting than F1 with his generation. Hell yeah, if Mateschitz takes away his four cars it's all over.

[Seanspeed]

Sometimes............sometimes it is one car on the lead lap.....don't get too hyperbolic here.

Seriously.

I think my, and probably most other people's problem, is simply the length. Watching a 4-6 hour race is just too much already. And then of course there's 8, 12 and 24 hour races. Sure, you can go off and come back, but for me at least, actually *following* a race is the best part. I'm not happy to just know the current order or get the bulletpoints of the last hour's activity, I want to *watch* a race. And endurance racing is just not well suited for people who like to *watch* racing.

F1 is infinitely more watchable and easy to follow. I think it's decline would be helped by taking it away from paid-for TV stations again. Plenty of people are interested in F1, but not enough to pay money to watch it. And of course, how do you get new viewers if you have to pay for it first? I wouldn't have ever started watching F1 if it was locked behind some subscription channel.

[Rinehart]

I'm pretty sure if WEC changed everything they could to make itself more "popular" it would become much worse, much more expensive and much more political in the process! 

 

F1 was amazing before it got too big for itself....

[rjsports]

Seriously.

I think my, and probably most other people's problem, is simply the length. Watching a 4-6 hour race is just too much already. And then of course there's 8, 12 and 24 hour races. Sure, you can go off and come back, but for me at least, actually *following* a race is the best part. I'm not happy to just know the current order or get the bulletpoints of the last hour's activity, I want to *watch* a race. And endurance racing is just not well suited for people who like to *watch* racing.

F1 is infinitely more watchable and easy to follow. I think it's decline would be helped by taking it away from paid-for TV stations again. Plenty of people are interested in F1, but not enough to pay money to watch it. And of course, how do you get new viewers if you have to pay for it first? I wouldn't have ever started watching F1 if it was locked behind some subscription channel.

 

The first two hours of Silverstone had more racing than the Chinese and Malaysian Grand Prix combined. It's just 1 hour sprints to the pitstops. I do agree with the fact that it's a long sit, I personally don't mind but I do think the racing in WEC is better than F1 at the moment. If only there wouldn't be things like tyre saving and fuel saving and I think F1 would be a whole lot interesting. 

[DanardiF1]

LMP used to be very boring. Long races, little intensity during pits, and huge gaps between cars. 

 

However, they have improved considerably and in my opinion caught up with f1. Their lack of coverage in major broadcasters still count against them, so is the race duration which affects too many timezone, but the spectacle is better, there are more freedom for engineers and teams to develop and race. Just look at how many major automakers is racing there and you know the answer. 

 

Not wishing to be completely pedantic as I am a big fan of the WEC and sportscars overall, but in LMP1 there are just 3... VW with two teams, Toyota and the as-yet unraced Nissan...

 

In F1 there is Mercedes, Ferrari and works partners in Honda and Renault... so really in terms of manufacturer interest the top class of sportscar racing isn't there yet, and ultimately it is likely to suffer the same pitfalls as mid-2000's F1 where manufacturers will get bored of spending money on not winning and pull out. However, as long as LMP1 provides enough technical and engineering challenges that manufacturers find relevant for both their own engineering and marketing purposes, I think LMP1 can support 5-6 manufacturers of 2 cars each. No more. Privateers are irrelevant in this category though now IMO because it is frankly impossible for a private outfit to reach the same level of technical expertise and R&D that the manufacturers have. Rebellion and Kolles would be much better off competing in LMP2 and the FIA/ACO should ditch the P1 Privateer Trophy because IMO it rewards nothing but taking the easy option of merely driving, not racing.

[muramasa]

Seriously.

I think my, and probably most other people's problem, is simply the length. Watching a 4-6 hour race is just too much already. And then of course there's 8, 12 and 24 hour races. Sure, you can go off and come back, but for me at least, actually *following* a race is the best part. I'm not happy to just know the current order or get the bulletpoints of the last hour's activity, I want to *watch* a race. And endurance racing is just not well suited for people who like to *watch* racing.

F1 is infinitely more watchable and easy to follow. I think it's decline would be helped by taking it away from paid-for TV stations again. Plenty of people are interested in F1, but not enough to pay money to watch it. And of course, how do you get new viewers if you have to pay for it first? I wouldn't have ever started watching F1 if it was locked behind some subscription channel.

key to enjoy those endurance racing is that, stop being perfectionist. I dont focus on it always, just listen to commentary when less action and come back to check progress sometimes. You'll learn how and when to focus watching.

Still they can do a lot better in giving on screen information more aggressively, like pitstop count and when the last pitstop for each car was, and lap chart comparison in graphs etc etc. You can see some in live timing but WEC's not the best live timing and makes you tired. They can be better in that defo.

[Timstr11]

Looks like RedBull has been reading this thread:

 

Hot Topics: Could the WEC become as big as F1?

[Clrnc]

Not wishing to be completely pedantic as I am a big fan of the WEC and sportscars overall, but in LMP1 there are just 3... VW with two teams, Toyota and the as-yet unraced Nissan...

 

In F1 there is Mercedes, Ferrari and works partners in Honda and Renault... so really in terms of manufacturer interest the top class of sportscar racing isn't there yet, and ultimately it is likely to suffer the same pitfalls as mid-2000's F1 where manufacturers will get bored of spending money on not winning and pull out. However, as long as LMP1 provides enough technical and engineering challenges that manufacturers find relevant for both their own engineering and marketing purposes, I think LMP1 can support 5-6 manufacturers of 2 cars each. No more. Privateers are irrelevant in this category though now IMO because it is frankly impossible for a private outfit to reach the same level of technical expertise and R&D that the manufacturers have. Rebellion and Kolles would be much better off competing in LMP2 and the FIA/ACO should ditch the P1 Privateer Trophy because IMO it rewards nothing but taking the easy option of merely driving, not racing.

Yes, but the WEC is still pretty new (ignore the historic version). Point is, they are on the right track and is just going to improve/attack more top manufacturers. There's alot to be desired about the WEC, and also alot of room for improvements. For e.g. having more LMP1 and less of the dross behind them would be great for a start.

 

F1 on the other hand, has really gone stale, especially with the rules and regulations. Everything is just too rigid. 

[Gyno]

WEC will surpass F1, mainly because F1 is digging it's own grave and wont be around fur much longer if they dont do drastic changes.

Like V12 engines less aero and great looking cars plus drop the ticket prices down by 90%.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How are we defining 'surpass'?

[WhiteBlue]

WEC will surpass F1, mainly because F1 is digging it's own grave and wont be around fur much longer if they dont do drastic changes.

Like V12 engines less aero and great looking cars plus drop the ticket prices down by 90%.

 

WEC has no V12 engines the lightning fast Porsches use 4-bangers.  That really is the point of the new technology, that the most efficient power units will be the strongest. And V12 has always been a gas guzzler.

[ionutz2oo0]

WEC has no V12 engines the lightning fast Porsches use 4-bangers.  That really is the point of the new technology, that the most efficient power units will be the strongest. And V12 has always been a gas guzzler.

WEC's strong points are the huge differences between the tech in the cars...the diversity they bring to the table...that's where F1 fails. 

While in WEC they have everything from 4 cylinders to 8 and they go from petrol to diesel, F1 became a standard spec formula...everyone has the same type of engine, cars mostly look the same and overtaking and following other cars is next to impossible. The things i enjoy most about WEC are the diversity and the racing and the lack of politics(or the media attention that politics receives in F1).

 

Also, F1 with all the tire managing drivers have to do and all the fuel saving...i remember being in Monaco for the GP 2 years ago and the cars were going so fast in the practice sessions and quali and were making so much noise...then on race day, they were going at 75% of the pace used in practice...not as loud and captivating anymore. 

[ionutz2oo0]

Looks like RedBull has been reading this thread:

 

Hot Topics: Could the WEC become as big as F1?

I just love that it seems to be Red Bull's way of saying "Hey guys, maybe we should do this to make F1 watchable again." It's really true that clever people can put their ideas in practice and innovators can innovate compared to F1. 

[Henri Greuter]

WEC will surpass F1, mainly because F1 is digging it's own grave and wont be around fur much longer if they dont do drastic changes.

Like V12 engines less aero and great looking cars plus drop the ticket prices down by 90%.

 

Interesting that engine-wise you suggest F1 to do the exact opposite of what makes building WEC hardware such an interesting option for a large number of car builders.

 

Henri

[Fastcake]

Looks like RedBull has been reading this thread:

Hot Topics: Could the WEC become as big as F1?

That's what passes as a panel of experts?

[Dan333SP]

They're more qualified than any of us, it must be said...

[PayasYouRace]

Even if WEC becomes pretty popular within the motorsport community (including us lot - the hardcore fans) I don't see it being a replacement for F1 in the minds of the general public any time soon. If F1 were to collapse any time soon, I don't see WEC as being a ready made replacement for the casual viewer.

[Ross Stonefeld]

They're more qualified than any of us, it must be said...

 

Because they give opinions on the internet?

[Nathan]

I was able to somewhat get an idea of WEC TV ratings.  For the UK, Chinese GP averaged 4.15 million viewers on BBC and Sky.  The WEC race at Silverstone drew an average of 11,000 viewers.  That isn't even a quarter of 1% of F1s numbers in probably the most motorsports crazy nation on earth.  The WEC race peaked at 24,000 viewers, Sky's F1 pre-race show on PPV had 90,000.

 

WEC isn't threatening F1.

 

That's what a lot of people thought, including Ecclestone, but the F1 fanbase is shrinking rapidly, if you go to a sportsbar to watch a race these days, you will find very few people under 30 years of age.

 

If you can find a sportsbar that bothers to show F1 on a Sunday that is. Last time I did I had to ask specifically and was all alone with that screen, while some unheard of soccer-game was totally packed.

 

Wjhen I speak to my teenage son these days, I get the notion that Red Bull is far more famous and interesting than F1 with his generation. Hell yeah, if Mateschitz takes away his four cars it's all over.

 

This is motorsports in general though, not specifically an F1 issue.  The automobile is not near as valuable or intriguing to the sub 30 crowd as it was to older generations.

Edited by Nathan, 17 April 2015 - 00:26.

[Dan333SP]

Because they give opinions on the internet?

Because they make a living observing and understanding the sport. Maybe they aren't team bosses, but they are more involved and better informed than 99% of the armchair series bosses here.

[Nathan]

It's a lot of journalistic tosh. 

[Rasputin]

Looks like RedBull has been reading this thread:

 

Hot Topics: Could the WEC become as big as F1?

All WEC/LMP1 has to do is to introduce some "sprint-races", like Monza 500 km or Spa 3h,

 

Together with opening up the grid for active F1 drivers, that would be the deathknoll for F1 

[Henri Greuter]

All WEC/LMP1 has to do is to introduce some "sprint-races", like Monza 500 km or Spa 3h,

 

Together with opening up the grid for active F1 drivers, that would be the deathknoll for F1 

 

Again:  the sprint format has failed and contributed to the demise of GpC MkI (= 85 liter fuel;/100 km) and eventually also for the (=3.5 atmo's) in the past.

I see your point in it being a more popular format for the audience but sportscars are traditionally long distance cars and designed as such.

Norisring was an exception.

 

 

But: I don't think that the LMP1 grid is locked for F1 drivers at al! It is more the problem that the F1 teams refuse to allow their hyperoverpaid stars to run risks in accidents within other races than F1 that may keep them out of the F1 car for a while, if not forever. Thaink about 1985: Johathan Palmer, Manfred Winkelhock & Stefan Bellof.

 

Henri

[anbeck]

I just don't see why any series should be envious of F1 at the moment... just let IndyCar and WEC do their own thing with the fan base they have, for the fans that actually want to see the race rather than those you would like to hypothetically win over. Trying to inflate the fan base should never be a goal.

 

F1 has had a fan bubble during the Schumacher years that just wasn't structurally there, but has been included in all future expectations for marketing, etc ("Look, in 2025, we'll have 19 billion fans! In the US alone!"). Only relatively speaking to those ten years from 1995 to 2005 F1 is suffering a loss of fans. If people had understood the Schumacher years as what they were, an exception, F1 might be more sound now.

I know that among the teams, competition rules, so every dollar earned is spent (and often more). But FOM has a monopoly. For them, there was no need to inflate future expectations, and it was them who would have had the power to limit the excesses - if it weren't for them putting the money into their own pockets.... If FOM were not a profit-seeking company, but a non-profit association, F1 would be in better shape (or, maybe not).

[Rasputin]

Again:  the sprint format has failed and contributed to the demise of GpC MkI (= 85 liter fuel;/100 km) and eventually also for the (=3.5 atmo's) in the past.

I see your point in it being a more popular format for the audience but sportscars are traditionally long distance cars and designed as such.

Norisring was an exception.

 

 

But: I don't think that the LMP1 grid is locked for F1 drivers at al! It is more the problem that the F1 teams refuse to allow their hyperoverpaid stars to run risks in accidents within other races than F1 that may keep them out of the F1 car for a while, if not forever. Thaink about 1985: Johathan Palmer, Manfred Winkelhock & Stefan Bellof.

 

Henri

I beg to differ Group C MkI and II failed because Maximillian and Bernard decided to kill it and lure the manufacturers to Formula 1.

 

I think a "Neo-CanAm" sprint format would be totally awsome with these LMP1 cars.

[Henri Greuter]

I beg to differ Group C MkI and II failed because Maximillian and Bernard decided to kill it and lure the manufacturers to Formula 1.

 

I think a "Neo-CanAm" sprint format would be totally awsome with these LMP1 cars.

 

 

I will grant you that the changes to sprint races were a step in the plot of those two partners in crime in order to warm up the participants of that time into more F1-like situations to enhance their transition to F1.

 

But I keep doubting if shorter events like you want would succeed. To me it would be something like WTCC and DTM formats. And since we have those already, then why yet another variant with closed cars?

Besides that, it would create even more unemployed drivers because of no second-third driver per car necessary anymore. Whcih means less pay drivers, less money, less cars in the below-LMP1 categories.

 

henri

[saudoso]

They're more qualified than any of us, it must be said...

We, the fools footing the bill, have knowledge that the experts seems to fail to acquire: We know what makes us spend hours in front of the TV looking at sponsor logos.

 

So each and every spectator has a valid say on the matter.

[chunder27]

Good point, and one I ahve been banging on about for months now.

 

Especially regarding F1, people who glady pay hundreds of pounds to watch it live and pay for it on tv can really not bitch so much of they have in some small way contributed to it being behind a pay wall and being prohibitively expensive to see live.

 

They are their own worst enemies, same as footie fans, people who pay to watch insane things liek World Cup finals, Olympcs and pay thousands to do so.

 

If the demand was not there, neither would the sky high tickets prices.

 

Remove the demand, be patient, stand up for your sport, and they will come running.

[Rasputin]

I will grant you that the changes to sprint races were a step in the plot of those two partners in crime in order to warm up the participants of that time into more F1-like situations to enhance their transition to F1.

 

But I keep doubting if shorter events like you want would succeed. To me it would be something like WTCC and DTM formats. And since we have those already, then why yet another variant with closed cars?

Besides that, it would create even more unemployed drivers because of no second-third driver per car necessary anymore. Whcih means less pay drivers, less money, less cars in the below-LMP1 categories.

 

henri

You cannot begin to compare WTCC and LMP1 on the same week, while I fail to see driver-employment as a viable argument, are you serious?

[Henri Greuter]

You cannot begin to compare WTCC and LMP1 on the same week, while I fail to see driver-employment as a viable argument, are you serious?

 

As a matter of fact, yes I am serious. But maybe I should have added that I was thinking about LMP2 and the GT categories in particular. For LMP1 It hink it is less of a problem as long as factory teams remain active.

for the below LMP1 category however: With less pay drivers needed to field an entry, it will be more and more difficult for teams to generate enough money to field a car, otherwise financeds by at least one, if not two or all three drivers.

 

edit,

I know this has nothing to do with LMP1 directly. But since there are not enough LMP1's running yet, you need those other cars of the lower categories too in order to have an event worthwhile. Just 6 starters only because of an LMP1 only race richt now is no viable option. And I assume that for your psedo Can-Am you want to have more than 6 cars as well?

 

end edit

 

But let's at least agree on that we disagree. But  I know that you care about WEC, so do I.

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 17 April 2015 - 12:30.

[Rasputin]

Perhaps the pay-drivers should for a union then, like a "Pay Driver's Guild" or something, to defend their right to drive regrardless of demand for their services? 

[Henri Greuter]

Perhaps the pay-drivers should for a union then, like a "Pay Driver's Guild" or something, to defend their right to drive regrardless of demand for their services? 

 

 

I wished the the series was strong and healthy enough not to need such drivers anymore. You only have to look on what happened at le mans with certain Ferrari 458s last year.

Though some of such drivers are pretty good and not to be counted out. But the fact is that for the GT categories and the LMP2 category, some teams can't run without drivers who bring in the funds to field the car.

 

 

Henri

[Rinehart]

As we all know, to make a series the amongst worlds most popular, you need the most famous drivers, the most famous cars, shortish races, prime time TV slots and loads of media coverage. The thing then makes loads of money which it becomes self-reliant upon, so then the game becomes to try to find even more viewers to generate even more revenue which creates the question "what do new viewers want" which is of course an even more commercialised, dispirited form of racing. Before you know it, you have gimmicks such as a double-points final race, purely to attempt to drive up viewing figures at the expense of the value of the actual racing preceding that point. In other words, core customers are not as important as potential new customers...

 

Hopefully WEC will resist the temptation to chase the profit margins and stick to a more sustainable path. That would keep the essence of endurance and technological freedom intact. But in this day and age, especially if they attract too many manufacturers with big budgets wanting a return on their investment... I don't hold out a lot of hope.