28 replies to this topic

[tonicco]

I would appreciate if someone could give me any info (or a site where I can get it...), regarding the Serenissima engine, used by Bruce McLaren in 1966.

ANY information will be useful to me ;)

Thanks in advance

[Frank de Jong]

It was called the Serenissima 308, a 90º V8, with probably 4 cams and 2 valves per cilinder. Bore x stroke 85 x 66 mm, output 245 HP. Serenissima built Grand Touring prototypes, 1965-1966 with a 3 litre V8 as well, but with different dimensions.

[Allen Brown]

Frank

What was the relationship between the Serenissima engine and the ATS V8 used in the back of an old F1 Cooper that season?

Allen

[Frank de Jong]

That's an interesting fact you bring up here, I've never thought about itin that way. Since ATS (the italian version) and Serenissima are more or less family, it would seem that the engines must share a few things. The ATS-engine of Bussinello's Cooper is based on the 2.5 litre ATS sportscar engine, with an increased bore (83,3 x 68,0). It has only 1 camshaft per bank of cilinders.
On second thoughts now, the Serenissima 308 could have had 1 camshaft per bank as well, I'm not sure about that.
So, the engines may have shared the design, the involvement of Alf Francis, and the origins in the ATS or Serenissima sportcar, but had different bore/stroke dimensions, that's as far as I get.

[Don Capps]

Frank,

As I have been working on the research for my mega-series for RVM, I have been pondering this very question. The similarilty twix the engines is something that had thought about, but never really looked at very hard at until recently. I am getting the feeling that the ATS and Serenissma might be closer linked than realized. In the next day or so I will dig into my files deeper and check a few items that I had not considered before.

Also, you are among the few that realizes that the engine used by McLaren was rather different from those used in the GT Serenissma cars.

So, the engines may have shared the design, the involvement of Alf Francis, and the origins in the ATS or Serenissima sportcar, but had different bore/stroke dimensions, that's as far as I get.

I think the Serenissma was also a sohc engine which makes it more like the ATS, if you are following my drift here. However, I will check this out before and tell y'all what I find.

[Roger Clark]

The Serenissima was definitely a 4-cam engine. It certainly didn't look much like the ATS.

[Don Capps]

Thanks, Roger. I am having to wait until I can access my files sometime tomorrow, so having to try to visualize the information -- and obviously not doing very well. It does make sense, upon reflection, that McLaren would go for a dohc lay out. Doh....

[Roger Clark]

What are the connections between ATS and Serenissima? I know that when the ATS Grand Prix project was announced in December 1962 it was under the name of Serenissima, bu that by the time the prototype car was shown to hte press in january 1963 it was called an ATS. This followed the resignation of Count Volpi from the project. Volpi's departure was certainly not amicable. so was there any connection between the two concerns in later years?

When the original ATS concern folded at the end of 1963, the assets of te racing team were taken over by Alf Francis and Vic Derrington. One of the ATS cars appeared in much modified form at the 1964 Italian GP, known as the Derrington-Francis. ATS had alsobuilt a few 2 1/2 litre GT cars, and it was this engine, enlarged to 3-litres which appeared at Reims in 1966.

But I still don't knnow of any connection between ATS in either its Patino/Billi or Derrington/Francis sponsored incarnations and Serenissima after January 1963.

[karlcars]

Here's what I have to say about the Serenissima engine in the McLaren in the 1966 season in my new book, out later this year:

[At Monaco] McLaren didn’t do all that badly. Bruce qualified tenth fastest of the 16 starters, 2.9 seconds off the pole pace. With the Ford’s massive weight aiding the traction of its rear wheels the McLaren streaked away from the grid and Bruce was seventh on the first lap. Before ten laps he was out, however, with a fitting in the nose gushing oil. At the very least, Bruce decided, the engine needed more development. In the meantime he needed to keep racing, not least for their role in the [Grand Prix] film. On the morning after the race they had breakfast with Count Volpi, patron of the Italian Scuderia Serenissima. They had developed a 3-litre V8 for sports-car racing and were willing to supply it to McLaren.

At Spa in June Bruce was spared the embarrassment of racing with the Serenissima by the failure of its bearings during practice. He had been almost 20 seconds off the pole pace on a circuit he loved, in fact only four seconds quicker than Phil Hill’s camera car. No engine was available for the French G.P. so no McLaren started at Reims, which on this engine-punishing circuit was just as well.

With a fresh Serenissma V8 Bruce qualified 13th fastest of 20 starters at Brand Hatch for the British Grand Prix. He was four seconds adrift of polesitter Jack Brabham, who annoyingly had decided to base his Formula 1 engine on the Oldsmobile V8 that Bruce had used so successfully in his sports cars. Bruce started well, then fell back and moved up again to seventh by mid-race after some retirements. He finally finished sixth, eking out his first Formula 1 point on his own account – a small but significant achievement.

A week later they were at Zandvoort where John Frankenheimer and the Grand Prix crew had scheduled some key shots. ‘Look,’ they said, ‘we need you to take part in the morning testing.’ ‘We only had the one engine left and we knew it was a bit near the knuckle,’ Robin Herd recalled. ‘And it blew up in the morning testing so we never actually did the race.’ Considering the engine’s condition Bruce showed reasonable speed; his time was the same as that of Jo Bonnier’s Cooper-Maserati.

Sic transit gloria Serenissima in Formula 1. It was indeed a 4-cam 16-valve V-8.

[tonicco]

Thanks everybody for the invaluable information you've given me.

I have now the necessary leads to follow...;)

[Ray Bell]

There's a colour picture of the engine in the McLaren on the cover of a Motor Sport, probably about August... a high view, if not directly overhead..

It was this picture that had me realise that McLaren used more engines than any other builder during the 3.0/1.5 formula...

[Allen Brown]

Ray

I couldn't resist a dig into my database after you said that. If you count absolutely every way in which those 1.5/3-litre cars were used, which I know is more that just official McLaren entries, I can count ten engines (Alfa Romeo, BRM, Chevrolet, Climax, Cosworth-Ford, Ford, Leyland, Oldsmobile, Repco and Serenissima). That beats the eight of Lotus (BRM, Climax, Cosworth-Ford, Daimler, 1.6 Ford, Oldsmobile, Pratt & Whitney and Repco) but is no higher than Brabham (Alfa Romeo, BRM, Buick, Chevrolet, Climax, Cosworth, Offenhauser, Oldsmobile, Repco and Weslake) or Cooper (Alfa Romeo, ATS, BRM, Buick, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Climax, Ferrari, Ford and Maserati) over the same period.

A fun statistic maybe but, when it comes to works entries only, you are quite right.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Although I realise that the 3-litre component was removed and then changed in the latter stages of the formula, I consider the 1.5/3.0 formula to have been current until the elimination of the turbo cars and the introduction of the 3.5litre formula. It's a bit complicated, I know, but I see the early introduction of the 3.5 engines alongside the turbos as simply being a kind of prelude to that class, with slower cars allowed to run with the existing all-conquering turbos.

So, that being the case, and even without going to all that trouble, you have to add TAG-Porsche and Honda V6s.

But where does the Alfa come in?

Of course, I only meant in F1, so Chevs aren't in my count, along with Oldsmobile, Leyland and Repco... but I'm fascinated to know where you found the Olds, while I have to assume you mean Matich's Repco-Holden F5000... or was there a hillclimb car or something? In which case you'd still be one short by your reckoning...

In fact, I think you should explain all the oddballs, Lotus with a 1.6 Ford etc?

[Allen Brown]

I knew I shouldn't have started this.

The McLaren-Alfa is easy - that's the M7D and M14A. An Oldsmobile was put into M2B/1 for F5000 in 1969 but it failed to start its only race. The Repco-Holden was a 4-litre engine put in McCormack's M23 when it went over to the States for a few Can-Am races. The Leyland P76 was McCormack's usual engine and the Climax FPE went in the other M2B for a hopeless attempt at F1.

The 1600cc Ford went in Hughes' Lotus 33 in New Zealand in 1969 and was entered for the Levin Tasman race but failed to make it even as far as practice. It did run in National Formula racing in NZ.

Those cars got everywhere!

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Hope you don't mind me correcting you Allen, and your database...

And I'd forgotten about the M2 effort... do you mean FPF or FPE, the V8?

The 33 1600... that's hardly relevant, not for F1, not a car built for that formula...

Now, for the correction... McCormack never used a Holden engine in the M23... he only used the Leyland. Did he have to reduce the capacity for the USA? I've forgotten, but I can look it up... hang on a sec... oh, yes, for the lighter minimum weight... here's the story:

Fast That's Past - McLaren M23 Leyland


AS JOHN McCORMACK chased Graham McRae down the straight at Sandown in 1973, the rear end of his car sagging at one side, he was hating his Elfin MR5. A broken bolt in the rear suspension cost him that Grand Prix, despite his courage in fighting McRae to the finish.
That dislike for Elfins finally manifested itself in the appearance of the McLaren M23 in 1976. In between there had been a smaller, lighter Elfin, the ML6, which came into being early in 1974. McCormack was looking to overcome the extreme rear weight bias of the F5000 by using the Leyland P76 engine and Repco were happy to work on the development.
Developing cars was as much a point of this driver's racing as the driving. It was, in fact, the part he enjoyed the most. And the part where bits broke and he ran into fences was the part he enjoyed least. Surfers Paradise, 1974, saw this happen when the front sub-assembly of the ML6 break and a wishbone came adrift. The repaired assembly was in for Calder, but cracks showed even before the race and the car was withdrawn.
Dale Konnecke was in charge of putting things right, so his choice to instal the Repco Holden engine was also followed. Repco Engine Development Company had closed, anyway, and further work on the Leyland engine would have to be done independently, making the Holden a good option for the time being.
In this form the MR6 took McCormack to his second Gold Star in 1975. Even with this success, the car failed to show that Garrie Cooper had translated the Tyrrell ideas (that led to its conception) into a real race winner. Only a change to Sports Sedan rules prevented McCormack putting the bits into a Corvair body he had acquired as its end neared.
The Leyland project was still proceeding, and the chassis chosen to carry it to completion was the ex-Formula One McLaren M23. Chassis No M23/2 was advertised for sale by South African Dave Charlton, and McCormack bought it minus engine.
In 1973 the M23 had succeeded the Ralph Bellamy-designed M19 McLarens that had been competitive in the World Championship, the Gordon Coppuck M23s going that step further by taking the marque's first World Championship with Emerson Fittipaldi. They remained at the forefront of the McLaren attack until the bugs were ironed out of the M26 during 1977. Even then, the factory cars gave newcomers Gilles Villeneuve and Bruno Giacomelli their first taste of F1, and a privately owned M23 ran to the end of the year.
That put this model at the forefront of F1 racing for four and a half years, with James Hunt the second driver to win a World Championship in one.
McCormack's purchase was made in mid-1976, and Konnecke and Simon Aram quickly completed the conversion.
For the September 19 Gold Star event at Oran Park the car sat fourth on the grid, but a valve broke on lap 22. A win followed at Calder, then at Phillip Island it had pole and led until a tyre deflated on lap 16. Even so, the car took third place in its inaugural Gold Star series.
One of McCormack's aims in changing the car to F5000 was to keep it as original as possible. "The oil tank fitted in behind the back of the tub, and by removing this we had just enough room to accommodate the Leyland engine," he told us. The front of the Leyland had many changes, however, to make it possible, including a shortened harmonic balancer and a relocated water pump.
The gearbox was the FG400, which had the same diff as the DG300 universal in F5000, but the lighter gears of the FT200 as used in F2 and Atlantics. In F1 these were marginal, and with the extra torque of the bigger engine they were too frail. Peter Holinger cut new gears with fewer teeth and a deeper root diameter, which proved to be ju-ust good enough. For the time being.
"The Leyland engine was only just strong enough to hold in the power (390bhp), especially when bored out to five litres," McCormack added, "so we couldn't use it as a stressed member." Two subframes took the major loads, linking the clutch housing to the original pickups on the tub, while diagonal braces came from the radiator pods to a central point under the gearbox to give lateral rigidity.
The M23 was unusual in having fixed length driveshafts. The minute variation in length ordinarily taken up by a sliding spline (which can be subject to binding and hence affect handling) was not addressed in the shaft, but within the upright. The outer quarter shaft ran in Torrington bearings that allowed them to work in and out as the suspension experienced its travel.
Cornering loads were thus fed through the driveshafts to the sideplates of the differential housing, reducing loadings on the suspension joints.
John considers that this gave the car less feel, but ". . . it was always very stable, in fact, it never broke away. I never spun that car."
With the original high airbox of the early M23s, the car looked just as it would have done in F1 trim. Much like it did when Peter Revson used it to give McLaren their first home GP win at Silversone in 1973. Except of the Yardley colours, which were covered up with the orange of Budget Rent-a-Car for the 1977 season. Wheels remained original, too, one reason for taking this path being to use F1 rubber.
The Rothmans International Series brought no success, three finishes in lowly places, but with the first round of the Gold Star at Surfers came a win. Round 2 at Sandown was a disaster, for the car's tricky cooling system had to be carefully bled. A problem on the warm-up lap was diagnosed as this not having been done correctly and thus the car was caught out in the pit lane as the race started.
For the final round at Phillip Island (the Gold Star was at a terribly low ebb) the car showed its true pace. Two seconds a lap quicker than the best Lola, it was a moral to win if it could finish. It had the race well and truly won with three laps to go, but then the engine's inherent weaknesses caught up and John pitted for the final two laps. He came out to cross the line when the flag fell, clinching the Gold Star Championship for the third time.
Wrapping up the year was the Rose City race at Winton, and this fell to the McLaren handily as its weight and balance advantage really showed up.
Two failures to start in the 1978 International series were followed by another first round win in the Gold Star, this Oran Park race featuring a stunning round-the-outside-pass on Kevin Bartlett. Round 2 was Sandown and another AGP, that dreadful race that saw disastrous crashes and cars dropping like flies.
The McLaren was virtually out before the start, having been hastily fitted with the only set of head gaskets available after a problem developed. These didn't have the necessary water holes to let coolant into the block, so overheating was inevitable. It held second place until its early retirement.
Sponsorship was now from Unipart, reflecting the Leyland part of the package, and they would have been overjoyed with the domination of the field at Calder. Until it ran out of fuel with a lap to go. McCormack was second in the Gold Star.
Again the season closed with Winton, this time James Hunt being invited to drive the latest Elfin, the MR8. The McLaren was second on the grid and the only car likely to cause the ex-World Champion any trouble, but on the fresh surface a stone flicked up and jammed in a brake caliper on the first lap. A pit stop to bleed the rear brakes and removed the stone cost almost a lap, so John rejoined ahead of Hunt and stayed there the rest of the race to claim fourth place.
Big things were being cooked up behind the scenes while all of this was unfolding, however. To address the lack of power, new heads were designed by Phil Irving and cast from a special alloy from Comalco. Called a 'hypereutectic' alloy, it had a high silicone content and other constituents affecting the micro-structure of the material during heat treating.
Comalco were working towards eliminating valve guides and seats, and thus these heads had none. The design also featured a 'bent' pushrod, with a shuttle running in a bush in the head between two short pushrods to allow more room for straight inlet ports.
Exhaust ports were much better than the original head's, and Irving used Heron-type bowl in piston combustion chambers. The flat head surface also helped in another area - the face was made thicker to give extra strength in an area of the engine known to be weak.
Initial dyno endurance test runs were stopped regularly to check if there was any creep in valve height (measuring at the tip of the stem), with one power run showing that there was 420bhp and 420ft lbs of torque. This latter figure was sensational, being about 40 higher than the Repco Holdens, renowned for their mid-range. A revised cam (a Wade 224A used on Holden sixes) returned 470bhp and 380 ft lbs.
First time out for this engine it met opposition from the Chev runners. It was because of persistent head cracking of the Chevys that the rules had been relaxed to allow non-standard heads, but they weren't expecting valves to operate at a different angle. CAMS ruled in favour of the IMC (Irving, McCormack, Comalco) heads.
But it was of no consequence, for the head gaskets failed after 25 laps in the Sandown race. Their only other outing was at Surfers, where the car caught fire on the warm-up lap after practising eighth fastest. They were never used again.
Why? "They gave so much power that they cracked the block," McCormack remembers. The car ran worn original heads at Adelaide and overheated, then put in a good performance at Oran Park to challenge the later F1 Wolf of David Kennedy for many laps before retiring.
Then came the AGP at Wanneroo, and another weakness showed up. Exiting Coca Cola corner on the first lap of practice it broke a gear - and the replacements as the day wore on. "In flat running they did the job," John says, "but here you climb out of the corner and the load was just too much." The traction being so good there would also have contributed, and a sticky throttle in the race made for an early exit.
That year the US CanAm series was for F5000s with bodywork enclosing the wheels, so John decided to sample it to see if it was viable. "There was so little racing here I couldn't make ends meet, so I had Simon design a body and it was built by John Webb," he recalls.
The rules also allowed different engine capacities with a formula for weight variation. Two short stroke cranks were made and the engine brought back to 4-litres so they could run at 1300lbs, with three events (Mosport, Watkins Glen and Mid Ohio) being the sum of the effort.
The car returned to Australia and was mothballed, John's interest in building the Jaguar Sports Sedan taking precedence. Then Unipart called and wanted representation for a new car polish at Calder for the mixed-grille F1 and F5000 AGP of 1980. The Gold Star was effectively dead and the International Series a memory as F5000 died out, but this event saw them have a final fling.
The McLaren didn't make it, however, John having been injured in a road crash en route to Calder and put out of action for some time.
"I put the car under the house, then a few years later McLaren rang up and wanted to buy it," he says. The car was rebuilt in DFV form and went to the Donington Museum.
The engine project also became a museum piece. "Phil Irving suggested that I contact Morgan to use them on the Plus 8s," he told us, "but I didn't want to get into the engine building and selling business. We only ever made six heads."
The M23 was a great car let down by frailties that should have been able to be overcome. Its speed in fast corners was fantastic, it being visibly faster than the tail-heavy cars it raced against, and its few successes were gained against adversaries with much more power.
Finally, however, it was let down by the inability of the competitors to keep up with the demands of running the cars that made up our best-ever racing formula. For 1981 the Gold Star was over almost before it began, another McLaren, the M26, being kitted out by Alan Hamilton for Costanzo to win. Before the end of the year the Formula Atlantics were stealing the limelight with a series of their own, and F5000 came to an end.
Ray Bell

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The 33 1600... that's hardly relevant, not for F1, not a car built for that formula...

That particular 33 did appear in 3-litre races (in fact 9 GPs - see here) so that's why I counted it.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And I'd forgotten about the M2 effort... do you mean FPF or FPE, the V8?

The FPE "Godiva", which Ken Shepherd had bought from Paul Emery. The project took considerably longer than expected and although there were suggestions of an appearance in June 1967, the car did not actually show up until the International Trophy in April 1968. It was well finished in red and black but after just a couple of runs up and down the paddock Keith St John thought better of it and the team retreated back home.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Now, for the correction... McCormack never used a Holden engine in the M23... he only used the Leyland.

The reference I have for this is Autosport 10 May 1979 p3 but I don't have my Autosport to hand so I can't check that just now. But I'm sure you're right - you were much closer to this project than Autosport would have been.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

As so many Australians would so fondly remember Dawn Lake saying: "You tell 'em, luv!" (Autosport, that is).

My point with the 33 was that it wasn't designed and built for this formula, and its use therein was stopgap and only with the engine enlarged. Then to extend it to the 1.6 engine was a bit of a stretch...

The parameters I had for the discussion (how did this start?) were engines used in cars built for the 1.5/3.0 F1...

But it's nice that you mention it. Is this the car that finished up in DD's little shed at Narellan?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The parameters I had for the discussion (how did this start?) were engines used in cars built for the 1.5/3.0 F1...

As the Lotus 33 was designed for the 1.5 F1, it surely fits?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Is this the car that finished up in DD's little shed at Narellan?

The very same, though DD always insisted it was a 25. His argument is that his car was a 25 updated to 33 specs, and had not been built as a 33. My response would be that a 33, by definition, was an updated 25, regardless of its original design. But that's getting onto another topic....

[Ray Bell]

Yes, I would agree that it was a 33 if it remained to 33 specs... he could have taken it back to 25 specs and it would then be a 25... but I don't think he did...

But, when I said the 1.5/3.0 formula, I meant (and earlier stated) the formula that came into being in 1966... 1.5 supercharged/3.0 unsupercharged...

[bobbo]

Allan Brown:

Allan: I seem to remember that Lotus also used the Lamborghini engine as well as the Renault turbo (At least). Possibly others in the 1.5T/3.0 era?

Oh the places these threads take us!

[FLB]

Bobbo, Team Lotus's turbo engines were Renault (1983-86) and Honda (1987-88). They used the Lambo in 1990, during the 3,5l NA era, after using the Judd in 1989.

Allen, do you cont special projects in your list? Chapman supposedly had his own turbo engine built at some point, was it ever tested? Was the Toyota V8 (1979) only a rumour?

Brabham's BMW is also missing from your list (1982-86).

[Ray Bell]

So many things I've overlooked here... what was the Alfa in a McLaren?

Lotus, for this discussion, for cars used for this formula, used:
Climax FWMV 2-litre, BRM H16, Cosworth V8, Renault V6, Honda V6, Lamborghini and Judd... that's seven.

McLaren, by my reckoning, used:
Ford Indy V8, Serenissima V8, Climax Godiva V8, BRM V12, Cosworth V8, TAG-Porsche turbo, Honda turbo... eight.

Brabham:
Climax FPF, Olds-based Repco, CAC Repco (I make that distinction because there were so many differences...), Cosworth DFV, BMW turbo... were there more? That's five, anyway.

Any other contenders, or shall we get back to the topic?

[Rob29]

When did McLaren use a Climax Godiva V8? I only have record of it in a Shannon & a BRP One appearance in each.

[Ray Bell]

I suspect it was a privateer effort... see Allen's post with the three quotes in it above...

[Rob29]

Thanks Ray-I missed that paragraph. Also had forgotten that car,which I don't think I have ever seen a photo of. Needs to addded to the list of the worlds' worst F1 cars,that were so bad they never made a WC race. Others were Chevron B41 & a Dwya (?sp)

[fines]

The Chevron really wasn't that bad, it suffered because of Bennett's death and, well, because it wasn't a wing car!

[Frank de Jong]

IF Bennett didn't have his accident AND the Chevron would have been finished in time (for the 1978 season) the car wouldn't have been any worse than a Martini MK 23 or the Theodore TY01. It might have been a little better than that.
In other words, it wasn't a bad car for its time. In fact, IIRC in the Aurora series in 1979 it didn't disgrace itself at all.

[Allen Brown]

The B41: a second and a couple of fourths in 13 races. It certainly didn't disgrace itself.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Bobbo, FLB

Sorry I didn't respond to your earlier points. I only really cover the 3-litre cars (1966-85) on my site but I do cover 1.5-litre cars (61-65) that were used in 3-litre races. The definition gets quite wooly sometimes - it really depends what I feel like covering!

But I don't cover turbos so I have no records of projects of that type.

I also have unpublished (so far) records on unraced projects such as the 1967 Alpine, the 1972 Berta, the 1964 and 1968 Parnells, the 1967 Pearce and the 1969 Serenissima, plus other incomplete projects such as the GRD, Hawke, McNally, Reynard and Toutou.

Allen