89 replies to this topic

[Abranet]

What utter crap. Many better ways to achieve a closer grid for Mercedes than giving away IP...

[ardbeg]

Mercedes has a lot to gain if people find F1 interesting and what is better than a fight between Mercedes and Ferrari? If they have dropped hints in Ferraris direction, they have done it out of self interest which, in this case, also happen to be in the best interest of the sport. How many of you would have enjoyed another season like the last one? This time with only one Merc driver with a mojo...

True or not, it is nothing too get upset about. Not for us, but I can understand if Red Bull doesn't like it.

[icecream]

I am stunned that some people could believe this.

 

51% of people who voted in the thread think it's possible. 

 

http://forums.autosp...-malaysia-2015/

Edited by icecream, 25 April 2015 - 01:25.

[Wander]

51% of people who voted in the thread think it's at least plausible. 

 

http://forums.autosp...-malaysia-2015/

 

The option "Not likely" implies 'possible' more than 'plausible'.

 

It is possible (however unlikely) that Mercedes tanked intentionally, but I don't think it's very plausible at all.

[icecream]

Hmm.. yeah, you're right, plausible isn't the best word.  I've edited the post. :-)

[Cacarella]

Mercedes has a lot to gain if people find F1 interesting and what is better than a fight between Mercedes and Ferrari? If they have dropped hints in Ferraris direction, they have done it out of self interest which, in this case, also happen to be in the best interest of the sport. How many of you would have enjoyed another season like the last one? This time with only one Merc driver with a mojo...

True or not, it is nothing too get upset about. Not for us, but I can understand if Red Bull doesn't like it.

 

The problem with this is they wouldn't have known this when they were dropping technical information on Ferrari's doorstep.

 

And when they dropped off the information, did they know how efficient the aero was on the F15?

Did they think the TWO world champions driving the red cars were both going to have a bad year?

 

It may be in the best interest of the sport, but it is DEFINITELY not in the best interest of Mercedes.

Again, if they thought they needed to put on a show of competition, they'd simply turn down the engines.

[BRK]

And when Ferrari start beating Mercedes in a fair fight a few races from now?

[GreenTree]

And when Ferrari start beating Mercedes in a fair fight a few races from now?

Mercedes will demand $100 million fine accusing Ferrari using their tech

[wingwalker]

Wow, complete and utter bollocks. 

[ardbeg]

The problem with this is they wouldn't have known this when they were dropping technical information on Ferrari's doorstep.

 

And when they dropped off the information, did they know how efficient the aero was on the F15?

Did they think the TWO world champions driving the red cars were both going to have a bad year?

 

It may be in the best interest of the sport, but it is DEFINITELY not in the best interest of Mercedes.

Again, if they thought they needed to put on a show of competition, they'd simply turn down the engines.

One or two drivers, it would still have been only Mercedes, that they knew. If F15 is close, they are happy. If F15 comes to close they bring in some updates. If they have given away some secrets, they have kept many more.

[PayasYouRace]

Hey Helmut, it would have been nice if you'd let some other teams when your team was dominating for 4 years straight.

 

Oh what's that? Domination wasn't bad for the sport then?

[mzvztag]

That's pretty rich coming from a man whose team won 4 consecutive titles with the cars of very dubious legality while at the same time getting help from the governing body through the tyre manufacturer whenever winning titles came into question.

[Spillage]

Apparently nobody told Alonso if Mercedes helped Ferrari, because he was convinced Ferrari had no chance. Probably because Marko's talking nonsense.

[garoidb]

Does Helmut Marko know there's a plot?

[Nathan]

If I remember 2014 right, Ferrari's PU issues were in how it was tuned, not that it had severe inherent deficiencies.  As far as the chassis goes Ferrari had been using a mechanically compromised front suspension layout for many seasons.  Fix those two and you seem to have the 2015 turn around.

 

I have NO idea wether there was some party bargaining or not between MB and SF, but me too found it quite odd -to say least- that a whole bunch of engineers was let go withouth gardening (if was?)..From sporting point of view it wouldn't have made any sense at all, but political- and- businesswise the more.

 

Is that backwards?

Edited by Nathan, 03 May 2015 - 18:09.

[rhukkas]

Bernie removed the fan Brabham from competition. It isn't unknown for teams to willingly reduce their advantage for political purposes

[63Corvette]

Bernie removed the fan Brabham from competition. It isn't unknown for teams to willingly reduce their advantage for political purposes

And back in the day..............at the dawn of the use of air power to close valves rather than springs.............Ferrari had a period where they were not competitive, and HONDA re-engineered their F1 engine to be stronger and more competitive. It happens.

[Seanspeed]

Bernie removed the fan Brabham from competition. It isn't unknown for teams to willingly reduce their advantage for political purposes

I wouldn't be totally surprised to learn that Mercedes have not been running to their full potential at times in order to make the competition seem closer than it is, and I'm 99% certain they are very much enjoying Ferrari's revitalization so they can try and play the 'look! we're not *that* good' card when their dominance is brought up, but I wouldn't believe they would actively help Ferrari out.

It's also a tad ironic they would claim this when there's a Red Bull clone on the grid, obviously designed by the ex-Red Bull employee who happened to require little to no gardening leave before getting to work. Not saying there's anything untoward about that, but it's just such an obvious, "well..." sort of rebuttal to me.

Lastly, I find it insulting to Ferrari's hard work and accomplishments up to this point.

[MrPodium]

I wouldn't be totally surprised to learn that Mercedes have not been running to their full potential at times in order to make the competition seem closer than it is, and I'm 99% certain they are very much enjoying Ferrari's revitalization so they can try and play the 'look! we're not *that* good' card when their dominance is brought up, but I wouldn't believe they would actively help Ferrari out.

It's also a tad ironic they would claim this when there's a Red Bull clone on the grid, obviously designed by the ex-Red Bull employee who happened to require little to no gardening leave before getting to work. Not saying there's anything untoward about that, but it's just such an obvious, "well..." sort of rebuttal to me.

Lastly, I find it insulting to Ferrari's hard work and accomplishments up to this point.

 

Very well put. Marko (and Horner) seem to have the opinion that if they're not winning, it's not fair, let's handicap everyone to a level we can understand and compete upon. Until they're winning, of course, then it's a "**** you, catch up, we're only playing by the rules (sic), it's great for the sport" attitude. Almost everything that embodies bad sportsmanship echoes from that man's mouth. I find him to be an appaling, sad little character who's depth of opinion extends no further than the width of a cigarette paper.

[KarlCson]

Is that backwards?

If looking from Ferraris point of view yes, from MBs nope.

[OvDrone]

The only good thing about Helmut is that he was mates with Jochen Rindt back in the day.

[jjcale]

Im with Dr Marko .... Ive said since Mal that something fishy is going on ... if anything Merc slowed down.... That car is a beast and if they really wanted the others could not live with it at all - I think Ferrari did a good job (whether or not Merc helped them, time will tell) but even so, Merc are not running as hard as they can in these early races.... and we all know why.  

 

Eg ... back in testing they said the cars were x seconds faster than last year - all the "experts" agreed.- now when I'm playing the guess the pole game in the bets and games forum I have to shave a full second off what the pole should be based on how much faster they were in the winter to be competitive in that game .... a full second! .... and that's not just at the hot tracks.

 

Also - when SV won in Mal the "experts" said it was because of the heat.. they go to China and its a similar story .. then they go to Bah and Ferrari are even more competitive than in Mal (taking the strategy weirdness of Mal  out of the equation) - without doing a major upgrade! .... so what does that tell you?  Merc is effing around with how much power they put down on any given weekend IMHO.... best case its for reliability reasons, worse case its to make for fake drama in the races.  

Edited by jjcale, 03 May 2015 - 22:33.

[jjcale]

If you're going to take an accusation like that public, you need evidence. And all he has is speculation.

 

It's deeply unprofessional. And sounds like sour grapes.

 

At the same time, I also agree with this post ... he is not an anonymous forumer ... Big chat by a man in his position needs evidence to back it up if wants to go public.

[pRy]

Yeah if anything I could believe that perhaps Mercedes are running at 90% or something to avoid the stink that was brewing regarding the engine being too powerful. But how could they assist Ferrari? Even if they told them a feature of the engines that only they'd worked out and this was somehow communicated to Maranello.. that doesn't ensure the car can handle correctly or the aerodynamic package is suitable for the tracks. That's all up to Ferrari. They still have to get all of that correct. Unless the difference between all the top cars is just the engine package.

[jjcale]

Yes, they'd do anything.  Including give technical data to one of their main rivals whom they would have no information about what else said rival might have in the pipeline.

Seems pretty risky to me.  Especially if you're trying to protect your investment. 

 

Why not just run a more conservative engine map?

 

I MIGHT believe it if someone insinuated that Mercedes was helping Williams, seeing as they're a customer and have ties to Toto.  But helping Ferrari?  That would be beyond stupid.

 

Ive said it before ... at the top level of F1 they are all in it together ... the teams are just different departments of the same organisation.... Merc and Ferrari are no more sworn enemies than Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant were.. 

[ardbeg]

Yeah if anything I could believe that perhaps Mercedes are running at 90% or something to avoid the stink that was brewing regarding the engine being too powerful. But how could they assist Ferrari? Even if they told them a feature of the engines that only they'd worked out and this was somehow communicated to Maranello.. that doesn't ensure the car can handle correctly or the aerodynamic package is suitable for the tracks. That's all up to Ferrari. They still have to get all of that correct. Unless the difference between all the top cars is just the engine package.

If Merc has slowed down, then Williams have slowed down even more. Not to mention Red Bull. In fact, all teams have in that case slowed down except Ferrari and Sauber...

[Guizotia]

Ive said it before ... at the top level of F1 they are all in it together ... the teams are just different departments of the same organisation.... Merc and Ferrari are no more sworn enemies than Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant were.. 

 

You know what happens now don't you?  You'd better start running...

[lbennie]

I've been saying this since australia, i said the smart thing to do would be for toto to turn the wicks down starting next race to kill off the equalization talk, & what do you know, that seems to be what has happened.

 

I don't even think, if true, it's that outrageous, in the world of F1 anyway, when we've had people photocopying stuff, purposely crashing cars, parking cars at monaco etc.

 

F1 is atleast 50% politics.

Edited by lbennie, 04 May 2015 - 00:16.

[aramos]

I've been saying this since australia, i said the smart thing to do would be for toto to turn the wicks down starting next race to kill off the equalization talk, & what do you know, that seems to be what has happened.

 

I don't even think, if true, it's that outrageous, in the world of F1 anyway, when we've had people photocopying stuff, purposely crashing cars, parking cars at monaco etc.

 

F1 is atleast 50% politics.

 

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if this happened. Mercedes 'conveniently' lost Malaysia. It wouldn't even really require that they turn the engines down, just fudge the optimal setup by a few tenths and they make themselves vulnerable. Losing a few races now could help them win more long term.

[DILLIGAF]

I don't think he ever had a plot to lose in the first place.

[Brackets]

How can MGP be "slowing down" and yet still cook both cars' brakes? Or was that also part of the conspiracy?

[Fatgadget]

I've been saying this since australia, i said the smart thing to do would be for toto to turn the wicks down starting next race to kill off the equalization talk, & what do you know, that seems to be what has happened.

 

I don't even think, if true, it's that outrageous, in the world of F1 anyway, when we've had people photocopying stuff, purposely crashing cars, parking cars at monaco etc.

 

F1 is atleast 50% politics.

Really?   You seriously believe an entity like Ferarri is quite happy being openly  schooled in how to design an engine   by one of  their fiercest rivals? Sure  I can understand if there was a bit of subterfuge ala McLaren/Ferrari 2007; but, out in the open and willingly, tail-between-legs and and begging bowl in hand??..Comeon geezer.   

Edited by Fatgadget, 04 May 2015 - 08:54.

[aramos]

How can MGP be "slowing down" and yet still cook both cars' brakes? Or was that also part of the conspiracy?

 

Reduction in ERS power would actually have just that effect as there would be less rear regen. We saw it in Canada 2014.

[ardbeg]

I've been saying this since australia, i said the smart thing to do would be for toto to turn the wicks down starting next race to kill off the equalization talk, & what do you know, that seems to be what has happened.

 

I don't even think, if true, it's that outrageous, in the world of F1 anyway, when we've had people photocopying stuff, purposely crashing cars, parking cars at monaco etc.

 

F1 is atleast 50% politics.

Again: If Merc has slowed down rather than Ferrari catching up - how was it possible for them to only slow down relative to Ferrari? Look at Williams for instance, they are further behind than last year. Just think about it for a minute. No, thinking about it for a second should be enough. 

[aditya-now]

I just saw this on Twitter:
 
FA ‏@joseluisf1 9m9 minutes ago
Marko: "It is difficult to prove, but I am sure that Mercedes helped Ferrari" "And we all know why." (vía SportBild)
 
Are his marbles finally starting to roll?

 

I am amazed that you realize this only now. He has lost his marbles many years ago.

[andrewf1]

Meanwhile at Red Bull HQ....

 

[CountDooku]

Meanwhile at Red Bull HQ....

This is just brilliant!! 👌🏼

[Brackets]

Reduction in ERS power would actually have just that effect as there would be less rear regen. We saw it in Canada 2014.

Canada also had both cars going full tilt (this time in an intra-team battle but the brakes don’t know that ). MGP simply had kinda sorta forgotten to test the cooling requirements of a medium downforce setup.

Last week they were full tilt to keep RAI at bay.

Never mind all that. Are you implying they’d run tuned down cars and ~not~ realise this would cook the brakes? On a car that has a tendency to cook brakes? It’s one thing to put forward a wild conspiracy, but it’s quite the leap to suggest nobody actually thought about the consequences.

[byrkus]

I have utmost respect for Helmut Marko as a racing driver. You know, Le Mans winner, Targa Florio lap record holder, etc.

 

As for Helmut Marko in role of team manager - well, that's a quite different story... But he's far from being alone in that aspect.

[BRG]

But he's far from being alone in that aspect.

Exactly.  Take Nigel Mansell - one of the best racers of all time, but should never have been allowed out on his own otherwise.