883 replies to this topic

[Menace]

So how do you rate your top drivers?  I realize some people will feel more drivers should have been included, but I picked the 10 I thought would be relevant.

 

I thought it would be interesting to see the results, though not scientific in any ways this board has quite the global presence.

Edited by Menace, 25 April 2015 - 19:43.

[KingTiger]

Tier 1: Hamilton (gap), Alonso

Tier 2: Rosberg, Button, Ricciardo, Vettel

[JAW97]

Tier 1: Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso
Tier 2: Vettel, Button, Raikkonen, Rosberg, Bottas, Grosjean, Massa, Hulkenberg

Edited by JAW97, 25 April 2015 - 20:06.

[Menace]

Tier 1: Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Raikkonen

Tier 2: Button, Bottas, Massa, Rosberg, Hulk

[Imateria]

1: Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso

2: Button, Raikkonen, Ricciardo, Bottas and Hulkenberg

 

Not sure on where I'd place Rosberg and Massa, though definitely not tier 1.

[MikeV1987]

t1: alonso, vettel, hamilton, raikkonen, button

t2: ricciardo, rosberg, bottas, massa, hulk

[TomNokoe]

Hamilton

the rest

[PayasYouRace]

The poll is broken. I can't vote because I consider all those drivers in my Tier 1.

[anneomoly]

Tier 1: Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel

 

Button

 

Tier 2: Raikkonen, Rosberg, Bottas, Massa, Ricciardo

 

Which, looking at it, looks like I've classed them by how many WDCs they've won. I really haven't. And I think Ricciardo and Bottas have the ability to be Tier 1 but I think they both need more time and opportunity to prove it. And Button, I have no idea. My gut says he's probably not quite got that final thing that Hamilton and Alonso have, but he doesn't look second class when he's driving the same car as them.

[sennafan24]

Tier 1: Lewis and Alonso

 

Tier 2: Button, Seb, Nico, Kimi and Hulk

 

Tier 3: Bottas, Massa

 

D.R's ranking is pending. I feel a few more seasons are needed before he can be properly ranked. At the moment he is flirting with a tier 1 ranking!

 

I should also stress that my rankings could look very different in 2 years times. F1 is an ongoing sport, so a fixed ranking is not possible. 

[oetzi]

I do find it hilarious that a 4xwdc can ever be rated anything but tier 1. He's not even nearly 30 yet. Apologies if someone beat me to this, but no driver who is not top class will ever win that many WDCs. Anyone believing otherwise probably still believes Montoya had the measure of Schumacher.

Edited by oetzi, 25 April 2015 - 21:18.

[discover23]

^ Tier 1 driver does not get outclassed by a teammate the way Vettel did last year ..3 wins to none.

Tier 1 driver does not use the car not suiting him as an excuse to underperform.
At least, that is the way I see it.

And Re: 2007. Hamilton never outclassed Alonso . They were pretty equal, actually Alonso finished ahead of Lewis more times than Lewis did.

Therefore right now Tier 1 is Alonso, Lewis and Ricciardo probably.

Edited by discover23, 25 April 2015 - 21:26.

[oetzi]

Tier 1 drivers don't sit in a bad car and complain. They move.

Edited by oetzi, 25 April 2015 - 21:26.

[noikeee]

There's no such things as "tiers". Each driver is its own particular case, with performance depending on form and external factors beyond their inherent talent.

 

I'd rate them somewhere around this

 

Hamilton/Alonso

Vettel/Ricciardo

Button/Rosberg/Raikkonen

Bottas/Hulkenberg

Massa

 

But it's a fluid situation open to interpretation, as proven by Ricciardo beating Vettel, Massa beating Raikkonen etc. And the gaps are very small between most of them.

Edited by noikeee, 25 April 2015 - 21:27.

[MikeV1987]

I don't know how people cannot consider drivers with one or more WDCs tier 1, but that's just me.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 April 2015 - 21:33.

[oetzi]

There's no such things as "tiers"

Yeah, that was kind of my point.

It's a world championship, and there are titles.

Then, after that, there are hunches, feelings and might have beens.

So, if your 'tier 1' had as many titles between it as one driver in your 'tier 2', you're probably missing something.

[jannyg]

Tier 1: Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo, Vettel, Button

 

Explained:

Hamilton and Alonso matched each other and have beat everyone else handily since

 

Vettel is a four time champ

 

Ricciardo beat 'The Champ' 

 

Button was extremely competitive when paired with Hamilton and won the battle in 2011

 

Tier 2: Rosberg, Raikkonen, Bottas, Massa

 

Explained:

Raikkonen is yet to beat or match anyone in Tier 1 when paired together over a full season so Tier 2 for now.

 

Same for Rosberg quick on his day but beaten too often by Hamilton to be Tier 1

 

Bottas good potential but needs to start handling Massa more comfortably

 

Massa, matched Raikkonen beaten handily by Alonso and hanging onto Bottas

 

No idea where to rank Grosjean, Perez and Hulk right now bottom of Tier 2?

 

I think you get elevated to Tier 1 by winning a championship or by beating a 'Tier 1' rated driver over a full season. IMO of course. 

[KingTiger]

I don't know how people cannot consider drivers with one or more WDCs tier 1, but that's just me.

 

Not all WDC's are worth the same. Anyone would win the championship driving those incredible Red Bull. 

[MikeV1987]

 

Not all WDC's are worth the same. Anyone would win the championship driving those incredible Red Bull. 

 

 

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

 

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty much worthless.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 April 2015 - 21:41.

[sabjit]

This should have been established by now,

 

Tier one is: Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel

 

And then the rest. Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are like the F1 version of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. They will be remembered as the greats of this age and whilst one of them (no prizes for guessing) in my opinion has a lot to prove still even though being the most successful of the three but its about how they will be remembered.

[Garndell]

Since a specific time period is not mentioned I rank them accordingly: T1 = Great & T2 = Good

 

T1: Hamilton, Vettel, Button, Raikkonen, Alonso

 

T2: Massa, Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Rosberg

 

All the T1 drivers have shown themselves to be capable of great things including consistency, all the T2 drivers are either not yet proven (Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulk) or have just too much going against them (Massa, Rosberg) to put them into T1.  Of the T2 drivers Ricciardo is the one most likely to be solid T1 in the future.

[oetzi]

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty muc hworthless.

Exactly.

If nothing else, you've at least got to be number one of two.

[oetzi]

Since a specific time period is not mentioned I rank them accordingly: T1 = Great & T2 = Good

T1: Hamilton, Vettel, Button, Raikkonen, Alonso

T2: Massa, Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Rosberg

All the T1 drivers have shown themselves to be capable of great things including consistency, all the T2 drivers are either not yet proven (Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulk) or have just too much going against them (Massa, Rosberg) to put them into T1. Of the T2 drivers Ricciardo is the one most likely to be solid T1 in the future.

You have a very, very low standard for great!

[noikeee]

Yeah, that was kind of my point.

It's a world championship, and there are titles.

Then, after that, there are hunches, feelings and might have beens.

So, if your 'tier 1' had as many titles between it as one driver in your 'tier 2', you're probably missing something.

 

I don't agree with that at all. Plenty of drivers were better than the guys that won more championships than them. This is a sport that's 90% about machinery remember. Ultimately the timing clock and championship standings are what matters the most yes, but those are awarded to a combination of man and machine, if you want to rate the men I'm afraid you won't ever get anything beyond subjective answers.

[sennafan24]

I think it should be remembered that different people will have different criteria's. As long as opinions are fairly reasonable, I see no reason for people to take offence.

 

Lewis and Alonso get top billing on my list simply because their body of work impresses me the most. The quality of their teammates and how they did against them is something I weigh heavily, as is adaptability and relative performance.

[oetzi]

I don't agree with that at all. Plenty of drivers were better than the guys that won more championships than them. This is a sport that's 90% about machinery remember. Ultimately the timing clock and championship standings are what matters the most yes, but those are awarded to a combination of man and machine, if you want to rate the men I'm afraid you won't ever get anything beyond subjective answers.

Yes, of course. But opinions are just opinions.

How do the top teams rate drivers? What do they base their offers to them on? 'Innate perceived ability' or achievement?

[KingTiger]

 

 

 

 

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

 

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty much worthless.

 

 

Hamilton at least had competition from his teammate, while Webber could barely drive an F1 car after 2010. 

[ANF]

Tier this: Fangio, Senna, Stewart
Tier that: Ickx, Berger, Jones

[MikeV1987]

 

Hamilton at least had competition from his teammate, while Webber could barely drive an F1 car after 2010. 

 

 

Webber was very competitive in the early years then slowly fell behind, much like Rosberg is doing right now. He is not at Hamilton's level, Hamilton would have gotten that WDC a lot sooner if it wasn't for mass amounts of bad luck in the first half of the season and shady tactics by his team mate.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 April 2015 - 21:50.

[sabjit]

 

 

 

 

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

 

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty much worthless.

 

 

The 2008 Ferrari was much better than the MP4-23. Hamilton made the difference with his talent.

[anneomoly]

I don't know how people cannot consider drivers with one or more WDCs tier 1, but that's just me.

 

Depends where you draw the line!

 

 

This should have been established by now,

 

Tier one is: Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel

 

And then the rest. Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are like the F1 version of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. They will be remembered as the greats of this age and whilst one of them (no prizes for guessing) in my opinion has a lot to prove still even though being the most successful of the three but its about how they will be remembered.

 

I think theorising now as to how they'll be remembered is a tad premature. Formula One fans are known for many things: consistency of opinion is not one of them.

[MikeV1987]

The 2008 Ferrari was much better than the MP4-23. Hamilton made the difference with his talent.

 

Oh give me a break, MUCH better? thanks for the laugh. the McLaren was easily on par with the F2008, Hamilton's team mate did that car no justice.

 

 

To me this is like saying the MP4-22 was MUCH better than the F2007, and Raikkonen made the difference with his talent, even though they were clearly on par with each other in that season as well.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 April 2015 - 22:17.

[noikeee]

Yes, of course. But opinions are just opinions.

How do the top teams rate drivers? What do they base their offers to them on? 'Innate perceived ability' or achievement?

 

Both, and I'd say more leaning towards the "innate perceived ability". Plenty of drivers wasted seats on reputations built on past achievements. Nobody hires a champion just to say they have a champion, they hire one because they believe they can still deliver champion-like performances. Otherwise you start finding it hard to get employment in the front end of the field as Jacques Villeneuve found out.

[realracer200]

for me it's:

1: Alonso, Hamilton for sure;  Ricciardo, Hulkenberg maybe

2: everybody else

[sennafan24]

I still think that 2006 and 2008 are the only years in recent memory that a WDC has been won without the best car (which probably influences my list slightly). Mind you, I don't really have a developed perspective on who had the best car overall in 2009.

 

Seriously guys, can we play classy.

[MastaKink]

Tier 1.

 

Alonso,Hamilton,Vettel,Ricciardo.

 

 

Tier 1.5 

 

Raikkonen,Button

 

 

Tier 2

 

Rosberg,Massa,Bottas,Hulkenberg,Perez

 

 

Plenty of Tiers

 

Maldonado

 

 

 

[oetzi]

Both, and I'd say more leaning towards the "innate perceived ability". Plenty of drivers wasted seats on reputations built on past achievements. Nobody hires a champion just to say they have a champion, they hire one because they believe they can still deliver champion-like performances. Otherwise you start finding it hard to get employment in the front end of the field as Jacques Villeneuve found out.

I never suggested anyone was calling Nigel Mansell out of retirement. But have a look at who drives for the 'big' teams - loads of WDCs, mainly getting on a bit, all on big money

Of course, they may well have got it wrong. Maybe one of them should call Montoya and save a few quid. Or there's always Jolyon Palmer. Nailed on.

To be clear, my real point is not that no-one talented slips the net. Of course they do. Nor is it that those that win are necessarily the most talented. What I am saying that nobody gets to stay at the top for years and win multiple WDCs if they're not top class.

Argue about who is the greatest of all time, yeah, whatever. Suggest somebody who has won four world titles in such a competitive arena is not top class then, well, whatever.

Edited by oetzi, 25 April 2015 - 22:05.

[oetzi]

I still think that 2006 and 2008 are the only years in recent memory that a WDC has been won without the best car (which probably influences my list slightly). Mind you, I don't really have a developed perspective on who had the best car overall in 2009.

Seriously guys, can we play classy.

It's more likely your list influences your view on the cars.

[NoSanityClause]

Tier one: ALO HAM

Tier two: everybody else minus VET and RIC

 

Jury still out: VET and RIC

[noikeee]

I never suggested anyone was calling Nigel Mansell out of retirement. But have a look at who drives for the 'big' teams - loads of WDCs, mainly getting on a bit, all on big money

Of course, they may well have got it wrong. Maybe one of them should call Montoya and save a few quid. Or there's always Jolyon Palmer. Nailed on.

To be clear, my real point is not that no-one talented slips the net. Of course they do. Nor is it that those that win are necessarily the most talented. What I am saying that nobody gets to stay at the top for years and win multiple WDCs if they're not top class.

Argue about who is the greatest of all time, yeah, whatever. Suggest somebody who has won four world titles in such a competitive arena is not top class then, well, whatever.

 

Yeah I wouldn't argue against that. The guys who win are very rarely lacking in talent.

 

To put it bluntly: do I think Vettel is a fantastic driver and one of the best in F1? Yes, absolutely. Do I think he's the best driver in the grid just because he's got 2 more titles than anyone else? No. I think there's at least 1 or 2 guys who are better. Maybe 3. But in certain good days and favourable circumstances he'll smoke all of them. And he's got like 10 years of his career still ahead of him to prove me wrong and win more stuff.

Edited by noikeee, 25 April 2015 - 22:12.

[Newbrray]

 

 

 

 

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

 

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty much worthless.

 

 

at best a shoddy post but on average a poor one

 

1st you quantify the importance of the cars you mention and relate it to the relevance of only 1 wdc winner using your logic Alonso's titles, Raikkonen and Buttons were pretty worthless as well.

then you surprisingly omit one of the most dominant era of them all the Redbull cars especially in 2010, 2011 and 2013 (hmm I wonder why) may I ask if those title are worthless as well since the cars in those years were even more competitive than most of the one's you mentioned

 

definitely a poor post written in angst and laden with an agenda but hey don't let that stop you  

[Afterburner]

Tier sorting is logical to me if required at all; it's how I'd go about things if I were a team manager (as if). So:

 

Tier 1

Vettel

Hamilton

Ricciardo

Raikkonen

Alonso

 

Tier 2

Button

Bottas

Rosberg

Hulkenberg

Massa

 

I'd be on the phone to any of the tier 1 guys the moment I even heard a rumour of contract talks. Everyone who doesn't fit this criteria is tier 2, including some guys that aren't listed in the poll (e.g. Grosjean, Nasr). Tier 3 are the ones that'd need to bring cash if they wanted a ride.

[Button4life]

Thier 1 in order: Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo.

Thier 2 in order: Button, Vettel, Kimi and Bottas

 

Also I see people are underating and overating Button and Kimi again. Always nice to see

Edited by Button4life, 25 April 2015 - 22:19.

[George Costanza]

Tier 1: Lewis and Alonso

 

Tier 2: Button, Seb, Nico, Kimi and Hulk

 

Tier 3: Bottas, Massa

 

D.R's ranking is pending. I feel a few more seasons are needed before he can be properly ranked. At the moment he is flirting with a tier 1 ranking!

 

I should also stress that my rankings could look very different in 2 years times. F1 is an ongoing sport, so a fixed ranking is not possible. 

Agree with this, Jim....

[MikeV1987]

at best a shoddy post but on average a poor one

 

1st you quantify the importance of the cars you mention and relate it to the relevance of only 1 wdc winner using your logic Alonso's titles, Raikkonen and Buttons were pretty worthless as well.

then you surprisingly omit one of the most dominant era of them all the Redbull cars especially in 2010, 2011 and 2013 (hmm I wonder why) may I ask if those title are worthless as well since the cars in those years were even more competitive than most of the one's you mentioned

 

definitely a poor post written in angst and laden with an agenda but hey don't let that stop you

ok, whatever?

 

I dont really know wtf you are on about nor do I care about going in circles with you but it seems you missed the point. I just highlight the double standards people have here. For the record there is no worthless WDC by any means, no matter what kind of car is winning. It's just very convenient that people cherry pick the Red Bull years as if thats the first car in history that won the WDC and was overall best over the season(s). I bet if [insert fav driver here] was in that RB their attitudes would be very different.

 

 

but yeah, im the one with an agenda right? pfffft

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 April 2015 - 22:54.

[George Costanza]

I do find it hilarious that a 4xwdc can ever be rated anything but tier 1. He's not even nearly 30 yet. Apologies if someone beat me to this, but no driver who is not top class will ever win that many WDCs. Anyone believing otherwise probably still believes Montoya had the measure of Schumacher.

To be fair, Montoya never had the car to beat Schumacher. Except for one short summer period in 2003.

[George Costanza]

I still think that 2006 and 2008 are the only years in recent memory that a WDC has been won without the best car (which probably influences my list slightly). Mind you, I don't really have a developed perspective on who had the best car overall in 2009.

 

Seriously guys, can we play classy.

I agree on 2008 for sure... 2006? Factor the Mass Damper ban, the Renault was the better car, after the ban, Ferrari got up to speed.... But 2005, IMO, was won by a lesser car.

 

I could go on about the lesser car bit...

 

IMO, it looks like this.... 1991, 1995, 2000, 2005, 2008 in the past 25 years.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 April 2015 - 22:27.

[George Costanza]

 

 

 

 

Anyone could have won the WDC in those 05/06 Renaults, F2007, MP4-23, W05, or BGP01.

 

by that definition, Hamilton's second title is pretty much worthless.

 

So you mean that Nigel's 1992 Williams and Alain's 1993 Williams could have been won by anyone? They were better than their teammates, except for a certain man named Ayrton Senna, who mind you, wanted to drive in those Williams...

[SilverArrow31]

Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are the tier 1 drivers, the top of this generation, that may have been lucky or unlucky with what teams and cars they have been using. But look at the record books and look at the number of fans these three drivers have. You see these three names alongside Prost, Senna and Schumacher

[SammyWilson]

People are so delusional with Alonso it's beyond belief.