Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Cars built to suit drivers


  • Please log in to reply
252 replies to this topic

#1 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:24

Some people seem to believe teams don't do this: https://uk.eurosport...143812--f1.html.

 

It seems this was at the end of last season ("They said we need six months. I said what can you do in three?"), so they probably already knew they were keeping Kimi and adding Sebastian. So, apparently, the team principal and the engineers do believe there's such a thing as a car fitting a driver or not. It seems they did change the car and it did make a difference. Drivers being faster with different cars, cars made to suit drivers, pipe dream or reality?



Advertisement

#2 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 21,124 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:31

...aaannndd here we go.



#3 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 24,846 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:37

.... and all those engineers at Ferrari were just too daft to understand what was needed until a marketing man came along and told them.

But drivers will have preferences, no doubt. First and foremost the team will be designing the best car that they can.

Edited by P123, 28 April 2015 - 17:37.


#4 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 5,076 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:45

Engineers are employed to build a fast car, drivers employed to drive it. No team will build a car to specifically suit a one drivers style, they will build a car they think will be the fastest and expect drivers to drive it fast.

#5 pUs

pUs
  • Member

  • 2,981 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:46

.... and all those engineers at Ferrari were just too daft to understand what was needed until a marketing man came along and told them.

But drivers will have preferences, no doubt. First and foremost the team will be designing the best car that they can.

 

 

Not likely, but allocation of resources is not always as straightforward as it may seem.

And "what was needed" will remain completely subjective until you've seen the end results on track. Even if a marketing man decides on it.


Edited by pUs, 28 April 2015 - 17:49.


#6 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 29,261 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:52

.... and all those engineers at Ferrari were just too daft to understand what was needed until a marketing man came along and told them.

Reminds me of the story (not sure if it's apocryphal or not, tough to get past crashgate on google search results) of Briatore at Benetton.  Having seen that some of the better cars were creating sparks on the straight, he supposedly asked his designers to make the Benetton produce sparks too.



#7 Jvr

Jvr
  • Member

  • 7,606 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:59

Well, at least these cars were built certain drivers in mind...

 

http://autoweek.com/...a-efficient-car



#8 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 21,124 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:07

Well, at least these cars were built certain drivers in mind...

 

http://autoweek.com/...a-efficient-car

Heh...I'm in a couple of those pics.

 

Kimi's car had to have the canopy removed, otherwise he wouldn't fit...

 

10468504_935416363139576_677038254500536

 

It was a tight fit for Fred too...

 

10629306_935416359806243_186009118305017

 

10749971_935416366472909_177574068583841

 

...and the boys actually put on a good show, considering...

 

10631294_935416496472896_374931252713328


Edited by AustinF1, 28 April 2015 - 18:19.


#9 Jvr

Jvr
  • Member

  • 7,606 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:14

Heh...I'm in a couple of those pics.

I first thought to add in the post a question were you there.  ;)

 

Was it a good fun?



#10 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 21,124 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:20

I first thought to add in the post a question were you there.  ;)

 

Was it a good fun?

Yep. Good time. Shell and Ferrari tend to put on some nice events.



#11 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

RainyAfterlifeDaylight
  • Member

  • 4,803 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:20

No, there is no such thing that a car is designed for a particular driver.

 

When a car is good, both drivers can drive it and when a car is not good, the adaptable driver can drive it but the unadaptable driver can't drive it.

 

Maurizio Arrivabene replaced Marco Mattiacci in 24th November 2014 and James Allison said 2015 Ferrari aero program was around about early January 2014. The gap between start of aero program and being team principal is 11 months. In those 11 months, Maurizio Arrivabene was Marlboro man, not Ferrari team principal. So Maurizio Arrivabene had no idea what was going on with 2015 car. That statement about Kimi Raikkonen from Maurizio Arrivabene is just a way of showing that he supports Kimi Raikkonen too and it is not just Sebastian Vettel.

Edited by RYARLE, 29 April 2015 - 09:47.


#12 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:22

The McLaren Mansell didn't fit in certainly wasn't built for him!

#13 pUs

pUs
  • Member

  • 2,981 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:26

 

No, there is no such thing that a car is designed for a particular driver.

 

When a car is good, both drivers can drive it and when a car is not good, the adoptable driver can drive it but the unadoptable driver can't drive it.

 

Maurizio Arrivabene replaced Marco Mattiacci in 24th November 2014 and James Allison said 2015 Ferrari aero program was around about early January 2014. The gap between start of aero program and being team principal is 11 months. In those 11 months, Maurizio Arrivabene was Marlboro man, not Ferrari team principal. So Maurizio Arrivabene had no idea what was going on with 2015 car. That statement about Kimi Raikkonen from Maurizio Arrivabene is just a way of showing that he supports Kimi Raikkonen too and it is not just Sebastian Vettel.

 

 

 

I don't think anybody has claimed that you "design" a car for a particular driver. However, putting in a lot of time and resource to optimise it for a particular driver is a very different thing. 



#14 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,799 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:34

I agree car in itself is not designed FOR a specific driver, but you would be very ignorant to think a car cannot be suited for a specific driver.  This years Ferrari had more balance shifted forward, its not a pipe dream or marketing.  It was partially done to help Kimi.  

 

I realize not everyone is comfortable with the idea, but even Alonso had a special steering rack on his new Mclaren, Kimi requested a new one at Lotus, and Hamilton has used different brakes then Rosberg on many occasion. Montoya had new front suspension built just for him... the list can go on and on.

 

It's not all so cut and dry, even though some pretend it is.  


Edited by Menace, 28 April 2015 - 18:35.


#15 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:37

Engineers are employed to build a fast car, drivers employed to drive it. No team will build a car to specifically suit a one drivers style, they will build a car they think will be the fastest and expect drivers to drive it fast.

But the article seems to contradict that.

"I asked what can you do to transfer weight a bit more to the front?

"Because I said Kimi likes to feel the car this way and Sebastian [Vettel] is more or less the same."

 

Furthermore, it'd seem a waste of time, money and talent to just build a car without taking into account the drivers' styles. After all, the drivers are a big part of a team's budget.



#16 Kimble

Kimble
  • Member

  • 1,240 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:38

There has been plenty of quotes from drivers and engineers over the years to show that drivers will influence car development, this is including quotes from the often badged 'adaptable' drivers.

 

In fact, I would imagine it would be close to impossible for there not to be any influence from drivers, especially when present in a team for a few years.



#17 Balnazzard

Balnazzard
  • Member

  • 2,103 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:40

I don't think anybody has claimed that you "design" a car for a particular driver. However, putting in a lot of time and resource to optimise it for a particular driver is a very different thing. 

 

Exactly! Ofcourse SF15-T was first and foremost build on ideas that the team had already during 2014 and when they saw what clearly wasnt working with F14T....but there ARE things that the team can do to optimise the car better for their drivers, and with Vettel and Kimi they both have more or less the same preferences when it comes to the front of the car, so I think it was no-brainer anyways to build 2015 car so that their drivers would be as happy as possible with the car. I mean some people here seem to say that "the team should only build the kind of car that THEY think will be great, and dont listen to anything what drivers have to say".....I just dont understand where that kind of attitude is coming from that the drivers would just have to deal with whatever they are given and shut up about it....

 

F1 is all about teamwork and if you dont listen what you drivers want, then you are bound to fail as a team.....Ofcourse with 2014 cars the teams had the challenge with just all the new regulations and new power-units, so I would understand that in that kind of situation, with very tight schedule, team might not be able to fullfill what this or that particular driver would want.....but had not Ferrari been able to do nothing during the winter about the car and make it more fitting for Kimi, then it really would have been huge fail, considering the resources they have in their hands and I would have questioned, why hire Kimi in the first place if you would not listen what he has to say and what he NEEDS from the car to be able to perform to the best of his ability.

So ye, in the end if you really want to get the best results out of your drivers, ofcourse you should always do whatever you can to give them what they want from the car, I dont see how anyone can question that....Im sure even "all adaptible" Alonso has his preferences what he wants from the car :p


Edited by Balnazzard, 28 April 2015 - 18:50.


#18 realracer200

realracer200
  • Member

  • 1,832 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:41

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.


Edited by realracer200, 28 April 2015 - 18:47.


#19 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:47

Others: "It is also alleged that in a personal conversation about the FW16 between Prost and Senna in early 1994 Prost had admitted that the FW15C had not consistently been as easy to drive as others had assumed in 1993, exhibiting odd behaviour at times. Being more nervous than the preceding FW14B when driven at the limit this manifested itself in slight rear-end instability under braking, most notable on high speed circuits when the car was operating in a low downforce trim, attributed to small changes in weight distribution from the year before. Other reasons given were that the FW15C, and by extension the FW16, were simply an evolution of the FW14B, which had been designed to suit the driving style of Nigel Mansell. The major aerodynamic difference between the three cars being the anhedral rear wing and downward sloping rear bodywork of the FW16."

 

From http://en.wikipedia....i/Williams_FW16.

 

 

Another example, not of a whole car, but details, is McLAren's steering being adapted for FA's preference even though, apparently, they stopped using it.


Edited by RealRacing, 28 April 2015 - 18:58.


Advertisement

#20 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:48

real champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.

 


The cars do a lot more of the driving now though. A weaker car looks worse because the driver can't physically make up the gap as much (Kimi '14 to '15).

#21 Balnazzard

Balnazzard
  • Member

  • 2,103 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:52

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.

That was completely different era though, the cars nowdays are COMPLETELY differnt, so like its said many times,  you really cant compare the cars and drivers of the past to what we have today.


Edited by Balnazzard, 28 April 2015 - 18:52.


#22 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 11,852 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:52

"They said we need six months. I said what can you do in three?

 

scotty.jpg



#23 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 2,713 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 18:53

Engineers are employed to build a fast car, drivers employed to drive it. No team will build a car to specifically suit a one drivers style, they will build a car they think will be the fastest and expect drivers to drive it fast.

Is that why drivers like Kimi and Alonso request/need special parts to be made for the cars to suit them?



#24 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 19:02

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.

Must be a bit of looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. Senna, for example, was very knowledgeable technically and he would spend a lot of time developing the McLaren Honda at Suzuka. Schumi used to do the same at Ferrari's testing facility. So, if there is considerable work and feedback by drivers, especially after many years with a team, the car must be optimized for them.



#25 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,799 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 28 April 2015 - 19:07

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.

 

Others: "It is also alleged that in a personal conversation about the FW16 between Prost and Senna in early 1994 Prost had admitted that the FW15C had not consistently been as easy to drive as others had assumed in 1993, exhibiting odd behaviour at times. Being more nervous than the preceding FW14B when driven at the limit this manifested itself in slight rear-end instability under braking, most notable on high speed circuits when the car was operating in a low downforce trim, attributed to small changes in weight distribution from the year before. Other reasons given were that the FW15C, and by extension the FW16, were simply an evolution of the FW14B, which had been designed to suit the driving style of Nigel Mansell. The major aerodynamic difference between the three cars being the anhedral rear wing and downward sloping rear bodywork of the FW16."

 

From http://en.wikipedia....i/Williams_FW16.

 

 

Another example, not of a whole car, but details, is McLAren's steering being adapted for FA's preference even though, apparently, they stopped using it.

 

Say it isn't so!  Shock and horror!!!  :eek:



#26 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 13,237 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 April 2015 - 19:17

Less controversial, en example of the good old days.....,

 

I recall having read that for 1963 Lotus built a slightly conger Typ 29 monocoque to accomodate the taller Dan Gurney.

 

 

Henri



#27 KarlCson

KarlCson
  • Member

  • 254 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 28 April 2015 - 19:56

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.


Big difference was tyres were taylored to teams, rather than cars needing adapt to tyres solely.. I admire Senna greatly as a racing driver (a miracle man on wheels he was, simply unforgettable!) but I'm not complitely convinced he would have thrive in the way he did with the rubbers of today, I think I'd bet my money on Prost to do better in modern f1 if had to choose...not that that has nothing to do with anything, just a meaningless contemplation! 😣

#28 BlackCat

BlackCat
  • Member

  • 948 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:00

Vettel seemed quite hopeless until Toro Rosso brought out car made for him. after that Bourdais looked hopeless...



#29 Jvr

Jvr
  • Member

  • 7,606 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:05

This topic can go on for eons, just take a look how much it is been debated in F1Technical Forum based on different driver preferences and styles:

http://www.f1technic....php?f=1&t=8843

 

And if a driver has preferences, it is only some good logic of the team to try to accommodate the car to support that, meanwhile I agree the fundamental properties of the car will first and foremost be designed by the engineering team.

 

But there was an interesting collection of quotes from that thread,:

 

"What’s your ideal car? Do you have a car to oversteer or understeer?
Jim Clark
Well, when I started I used to prefer an oversteering car. At first it was very difficult for me to drive a Lotus. It was fabulous to drive on tramlines, but as soon as you started to get the back out it became very twitchy. I feel that I can get somewhere near the limit with an oversteering car. Mind you, it mustn’t oversteer too much. As far as Formula 1 is concerned a slight tendency to understeer is probably a good thing, because understeer can be corrected without losing too much time, whereas correcting oversteer is liable to waste time.

Lewis Hamilton
Oversteer, good traction, anyone would think the same thing. I just quite like an oversteering car.

Graham Hill
Well, I think those days, the days of accepting a car as it is, are over. Practically all drivers have a different way of driving, so what is oversteer for one person can be understeer for another in the same car. Understeer and oversteer are mainly a function of the amount of power being used.
Early this year BRM did some testing at Zandvoort, and I tried Richie Ginther’s car. Richie was complaining of understeer, but I thought the car was oversteering. We were both right because we drive differently. On the whole I would like to think that I prefer a car with neutral characteristics. The whole basis of motor racing – the criterion of going round a circuit quickly – is the amount of power you can get on the road. If you have a chronic oversteering car, you have to lift off – otherwise the back will come round. In an understeering car you can kill a lot of the understeer by setting the car up and then putting the power on; this holds it in a power drift which in effect kills the understeer. But there are some corners which you just cannot get round without backing off and starting again.
I like to be able to set the car up at the entrance to a corner and go through the corner in a power drift. Nowadays I think it is essential for a driver to be able to set the car up for his own particular needs. I think the days have gone when a driver used to turn up, put his gloves and hat on, do a few laps and then go home. Nowadays a driver must make the car suit his style, because competition is so fierce that every little tenth is going to count."



#30 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 5,848 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:09

Vettel seemed quite hopeless until Toro Rosso brought out car made for him. after that Bourdais looked hopeless...

Bourdais is it you?

#31 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:10

It is a bit blurry, but didn't Mercedes design a chassis more suitable for Schumacher by the time of the 2010 Spanish Grand Prix? Schumacher was nowhere in the first four races, but then outqualified Rosberg in Spain and outraced him for three races in a row. I remember it was a discussion point back then. Overall it still didn't help much Schumi's season though, but thought it is worth to mention...

 

What makes it a bit blurry is that we need to differentiate a few things. One thing is car development from its infancy in the factory. Like starting a year earlier before the car comes out on track. For example the development of 2016 F1 cars has already begun in the design offices.

 

Another thing is taking driver preferences into account later on, when the car is largely ready and there is now more room to think, how would each driver fit into it and what are their personal preferences. It doesn't include just driving style, but also height/weight/ballast, so that the final details would be tailored suitably for the driver.

 

I remember when KERS was introduced in 2009, it was a talking point. Especially in BMW, because IIRC Kubica preferred to race without KERS and Heidfeld with KERS. So there needed to be significant setup differences to accomodate the wishes.

 

I think late in the design phase, let alone setting the car up, driver preferences would be discussed more in detail. Based on how much room there is to play around at a very advanced car development stage. But early in design phase, where the fundamentals of the new car need to be put in place, plus aerodynamics performances analyzed adequately with CFD, drivers do not come into consideration yet. After all, if you are designing next year's (2016) car already, you often even do not know, who the drivers might be next year! It is least of the worries for a designer at that stage.


Edited by sopa, 28 April 2015 - 21:14.


#32 ionutz2oo0

ionutz2oo0
  • Member

  • 213 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:16

Everyone drives differently...from the Average Joes of the world to the Loeb's and Vettel's of the world therefore as Graham Hill said what for one driver is an understeering car for another is an oversteering car. However, with that in mind, we must realise that in today's world where there are simulators and testing, cars are influenced by drivers as they practically test a car before it is built and can tell the engineers what they like or what they don't like. it's not that the Ferrari was made specially to suit Raikkonen but he did talk to the engineers and told them what he likes, he did some work in the sim and obviously they discussed it. It's the same in the WRC with the VW...it suits Ogier, after all he did test the concept and help develop it. Engineers come up with a concept and develop it with the drivers. Happens everywhere. Think about Loeb and Citroen, the DS3 WRC was developed by him to his own liking so that he was able to drive the hell out of that car. So it's the car being developed or made for a driver, it's the work that team and driver do together so that the car suits the driver.



#33 Brod

Brod
  • Member

  • 1,470 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:16

They do what they can do, but what a lot of fans don't get is that first and foremost they try to build a fast car. The preferred solution of a driver is not always the fastest solution and the one the team will follow. In early 2012 Red Bull introduced a new exhaust system, but while Webber used it and seemed to be happy with it, Vettel decided to stick with the old one. He finished 5th, just behind his teammate and went on to win the Bahrain Grand Prix only one week later after his team persuaded him to use the newer specification...the rest is history. 



#34 ninetyzero

ninetyzero
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:23

I seem to recall reading somewhere once that Alesi and Berger found the Benetton B196 difficult to drive as it was designed for Schumachers preferences...



#35 KingTiger

KingTiger
  • Member

  • 1,895 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 22:54

As Jvr has quoted the teams definitely must take into account driver preferences when designing the cars. 

 

Not to the level of people saying Ferrari got better because they're not listening to Alonso this year, for example, but there is no use trying to add more front downforce to a car if its drivers prefer understeer.  



#36 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 4,974 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 28 April 2015 - 23:02

champions like Senna or Prost were able to adapt and be super fast in every car. i guess nowadays drivers need the car to suit their style or something.

Different time and era... Senna didn't like all the electronics in cars.



#37 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 4,974 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 28 April 2015 - 23:03

I seem to recall reading somewhere once that Alesi and Berger found the Benetton B196 difficult to drive as it was designed for Schumachers preferences...

Correct. They hated driving that car. They couldn't believe how Michael was able to drive it that fast in those specs.



#38 Briz

Briz
  • Member

  • 453 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 28 April 2015 - 23:10

As Jvr has quoted the teams definitely must take into account driver preferences when designing the cars. 

 

Not to the level of people saying Ferrari got better because they're not listening to Alonso this year, for example, but there is no use trying to add more front downforce to a car if its drivers prefer understeer.  

 

Why not - considering Alonso's personality, I find it at least plausible him doing everything in his power to do the opposite of this thread's topic, making sure development direction is worst possible for Raikkonen's style while drivable for himself. Once it was obvious a title challenge with that car was impossible (right off the bat), that might have been his sole goal for 2014 - embarrass Kimi and make himself look even better than he is. So the effect of Ferrari actually changing the focus to make a car suitable for Kimi and Vettel might have made the car much better than it was in 2014.



#39 Dmitriy_Guller

Dmitriy_Guller
  • Member

  • 6,182 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 28 April 2015 - 23:46

Engineers are employed to build a fast car, drivers employed to drive it. No team will build a car to specifically suit a one drivers style, they will build a car they think will be the fastest and expect drivers to drive it fast.

Which seems like a daft strategy, at a time when you still need drivers to drive the cars.



Advertisement

#40 Norm

Norm
  • Member

  • 573 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 28 April 2015 - 23:49

From Turun Sanomat. 2012

 

Meanwhile, Raikkonen has a sly dig at the theory of a driver moving to a team with the sole motivation to drive them to improve. “If it was true, you wouldn’t need engineers anymore,” he said. “That’s just rubbish. Of course we as drivers say our opinion and the engineers listen. We try what they come up with and see whether it works or how good it is or not.

Kimi is dismissive saying, “But it’s not right that they ask the drivers how to build the car.”

 

http://thejudge13.co...drivers-do-not/



#41 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 29 April 2015 - 00:13

I don't think anyone is saying that a driver determines or dictates how a car is built. However, especially with long-term cooperations, Senna, Schumi, Alonso, for example, and if they are very driven and involved with technology, it would seem that after a while the car ends up being developed with their strengths taken into consideration. It's a virtuous cycle where they ask the driver what he prefers, he tries it, gives feedback, they implement again and so on. In the end what they end up with is a very integrated man-machine combo that allows them to compete at the highest level and an almost custom-built car for the driver. 

 

The arrival of new teammates or others who then drive the car and find it very difficult to drive if it's opposed to their style just goes to show that driver-centered development does effectively happen. It's interesting that Arrivabene has brought this up now in the case of KR and that he seems to have improved radically from last season. Having read the excellent info. provided here by some posters, it does seem that FA and KR had very different driving styles, even completely opposed and it goes a long way to explain how much difference there was on track as well. 



#42 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 8,845 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 April 2015 - 00:54

Reminds me of the conversation of Schumi vs Rubens where one was a left foot braker and the other wasn't lol.



#43 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 6,513 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:07

I think what happened at Ferrari with Arrivabene pushing for more front end grip reportedly to suit Kimi, seem to come out as a positive result. What should be noted is that without the required changes in the other areas like engine and aero of the car, Arrivabene's push for more front end weight might or might not have yielded positive results. 

 

I think drivers hope for a neutral handling car from their team. 

 

 

 

Formula One drivers are very rarely completely happy with the handling of their cars - by definition, a car being driven on its limit will have some problems.

However, they can be happier sometimes than others. This will be when the behaviour of the car allows the driver to use it in exactly the way he wants.

The end result is that he turns into the corner at the fastest possible speed with all four wheels of the car on the edge of adhesion sliding the same amount as each other.

This sets the car up for the maximum speed down the following straight and, eventually, the optimum lap time.

 

Source: http://news.bbc.co.u...our/default.stm

 

 

 

Some drivers like oversteer in limited amounts

Edited by ViMaMo, 29 April 2015 - 05:14.


#44 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,908 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:14

It is just Maurizio telling Kimi is no better than last year, you know, negociating a new contract...

 

Just thinking.



#45 f1RacingForever

f1RacingForever
  • Member

  • 1,384 posts
  • Joined: October 13

Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:25

All drivers respond to more downforce and a more responsive front end. These would have been priorities regardless or who the teams drivers were.

#46 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,799 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:17

All drivers respond to more downforce and a more responsive front end. These would have been priorities regardless or who the teams drivers were.

 

Actual F1 drivers are quoted in this thread saying otherwise.



#47 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 14,168 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:37

Here is few examples, how teams are trying to get the car to the way driver prefers:

 

Here is what Kimi said august last year :

 

"I have 100% belief in the people at the factory," he said when asked about the team's plans for 2015. "We have the tools and the people to do the job and what we are supposed to do. I'm sure we can be where we should be, hopefully by next year. We have to do a lot of work, but like I said, we have the people and the tools and I don't see a reason why we shouldn't be at the front again, but obviously time will tell."

 

"The team know what I like and their designers are designing a new car [for 2015] and I have 100% belief in the guys in the factory, and with James I should get something that is more to my liking. We have to improve anyhow with the speed and I think we have good people who know what they should do. This year overall - not just for me - it's been pretty bad for the team, so there's a lot of work to do and I'm sure we have the tools to turn it around and be stronger next year."

 

Here is what James Allison said at august FIA press confrence last year:

 

-"We have a car that isn´t very easy to drive with, that´s clear. Exspecially this has hampered Kimi. He wants a car, that front end is very strong and works presiscly, so that he can take full advantage of his talent. even if we have tried, we have not yet been able to give him that front end at Ferrari and that´s what we are looking for all the time."

 

-" Don´t worry, Kimi will get a car from Ferrari, that will take him back to his own level."

 

Here is what Pat Fry said last year:
"

the limitations of the car and tyres are especially difficult with Kimi's driving style.

"It was the same at McLaren," Fry added, having also worked with Raikkonen at the British team.

"He was very sensitive to the front of the car - when he and Montoya were together, I think we had about seven different front suspensions for the season.

"To get the most out of Kimi, you need to give him the car that suits his driving style," he said.

 

Here is  what James Allison said december 2014:
- "the aim is to build a car that will show Kimi´s skills."

-Kimi´s driving style is hard for the front tyres and gentle to the rear tyres. This has been one of the Kimi`s aces in his career. To be able to use this skill of his, he needs a combination of that kind of car and tyres, that gives him the chance to strongly lean on to the front axl of the car."

 

-"Since the start of testing, Fernando felt the limits of the car strongly on the rear end of the car, while Kimi on the front end. This is because, Fernando does less work while driving in to the corners, and more when he accelerates out of them."

 

-" all of his career, Kimi has driven with the kind of cars, that he can use the talent of his when driving to the corners and at the same time being able to be gentle to the rear tyres when accelerating out of the corners. The skill to be gentle to the tyres is a real strenght when season goes on. Our challenge is to build a car, that gives him a chance to use this talent of his." Allison said.

 

 

This years Ferrari suspension geometry has been changed completely and build to suit on Kimi´s driving style.

 

 

back in the 2007, McLaren were worried if the mp4-22 would suit Alonso´s unique driving style :
http://www.gptoday.c...orried_McLaren/

 

 

I think there were some story back then (on f1-live)by Dennis, that they had build the car to suit Alonso but couldn´t find that now.



#48 kimster89

kimster89
  • Member

  • 1,413 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:08

Why is it so hard to believe that all the drivers have some particular preferences regarding the handling of the car? And the engineers have the capabilities to help them achieve those preferences on the car?

 

Suddenly they want us to believe its a bad thing and a disadvantage if Ferrari helped his OWN driver to get what he wants.



#49 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 11,192 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:46

About question in topic.

 

I have to say my comment is based on movie Rush only.

The movie presents Niki Lauda being very technical and precise at that time. So I would say cars Niki drove were pretty much made for him, because he knew what to demand from factory, mechanics and cars.



#50 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,445 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:05

.... and all those engineers at Ferrari were just too daft to understand what was needed until a marketing man came along and told them.

But drivers will have preferences, no doubt. First and foremost the team will be designing the best car that they can.

 

Why not? Perhaps the engineers couldn't see the wood for the trees and it took someone from outside their area of competence to point it out. Perhaps he told them that if the driver was at one with the car he would drive it faster and with more consistency. Feel may not be incompatible with performance. Jenson Button requires a touch of understeer, Hamilton is perfectly happy if the tail end dances about - Do you think that they would each be comfortable in the other's car?