412 replies to this topic

[Peat]

As i understand it, Toyota only harvest under braking while Audi & Porsche can both harvest on throttle aswell.

If that true, then expect to see them go well again at the Tilkedromes. Le Mans? Who knows.

Edited by Peat, 04 May 2015 - 17:53.

[muramasa]

For me, the difference between Toyota and Porsche is that Porsche has remained consistently involved in sportscar racing at the international level, even without a factory presence in the top class. They withdrew after '98 (which is a shame, because that '99 LMP they designed with a V10 would have been a classic, I think) but they continued to build bucketloads of GT3/GT2/GTE 911s, had a factory driver roster in those cars, entered quasi-factory cars at Le Mans, and even dominated the ALMS for a few years with the epic RS Spyder.

 

Toyota, on the other hand, went cold turkey after their GT-ONE failure, just like they had before when the rules changed and made their TS010 obsolete for '94. Yes, they're still involved in Japan with the GT series, but Porsche has a continuous history going back to I guess the late 50s at Le Mans, while Toyota has been IMO much more lukewarm about motorsports in general.

 

I get the sense that Toyota does it when they think the overall car market is expanding and they can draw in additional customers through race marketing, but when the market contracts or slows they lose their incentive. Porsche does it because their entire brand image is built on it, so even if the P cars are withdrawn they'll still be there in some capacity.

Yes, in addition there is vast historical and circumstantial differences b/w Toyota (and Japanese manufacturers in general) and European/American auto makers in the first place. Toyota only started producing cars in what can be called decent scale some years before WWII, whereas western makers (sorry for a bit of too much generalization here) were starting mass producing within 19th century already. Also American/European lands are far more suited to high speed driving (thus such cars) and motorsports where as Japan terrain is full of mountains and valleys. So while those western makers incl Porsche could go for luxury/premium/sportscar brand route from v early stage, there's absolutely no such option whatsoever for Japanese makers. Toyota/Nissan could only start major motorsport involvement in 60s which is natural for Japanese makers (Honda werent even making 4 wheels until circa 1963). Also for japanese makers, go and participate european/american motorsports, which is the international stage, itself has always been huge challenge and risk coz they dont have base there and it's very far.

Well I criticize Toyota's somewhat fickle attitude in motorsport, but at the same time it's totally understandable, to great degree, due to position they are in and the lineup and revenue structure. I freely admit that Toyota can be a lot better in their marketing strategy as well.

 

I'm not claiming Toyota etc should receive the same credit as Porsche, Benz, Ford, VW etc, nor saying they are not receiving any credit at all, but just that Toyota dont deserve the kind of negative perception shown oftentimes. I mean, Porsche Audi Citroen Corvette Aston etc etc, all of them are super cool, they are cool for me too  but never understand the idea of disliking and bashing (either it's your fav's rival or those that u regard as "inferior"), it really shows your class. One might feel "bitter" for dominant team / rivals, or  temporarily so for a good, reasonable reasons, but that's one thing and disregard/disrespecting is completely another.

 

He doesn't have to, he didn't ever mention how he felt one way or another about those other F1 manufacturers you mentioned, only how he feels about Toyota.

 

Not sure discrimination/prejudice are the right words to use for those of us that don't trust Toyota's intentions 100%. No one has implied this has anything to do with the nationality of the manufacturer, so you could only mean brand discrimination, and I doubt anyone would use that label if I said, for instance, that I actively cheer for the Mercedes F1 drivers to have car failures because I don't care for that team.

Yes he has to. He came in by chiming in with prev poster's claim and further backing it up. So I went on to present perspective and ask why, which is the context here.

Or no he doesnt, because those WRC cheating and F1 bail out was not reason, just casual and convenient excuse. If u dont like it and it's ur "feeling", he could say so from the beginning, instead of making excuse by ad-lib, pretending it's reasonable, before admitting abruptly that it's just "feeling" only after pressed on, that's dishonest imo.

 

I see your point tho as I admit I've expanded topic a bit too much unnecessarily in the first post and derailed the topic (sorry for that), but again my point was not that Toyota should be respected/regarded as much as other makers, but just that Toyota deserves due credit and doesnt deserve some dissing that can be seen more often than not. Ironically tho the two subsequent posts proved my point, so. Yet I'm talking about general tendency rather than questioning individual's, but general sentiment is nothing but collective individual sentiment, so pointing out it's unfair and unjustifiable presenting reasons and perspectives was necessary and just indispensable in that process of proving my point, logically not emotionally, even tho I'm not disputing about individual's. Also, I'm not saying it's defo prejudice/hate, just pointing that such "feeling" is mother of. Either nationality or brand dislike/discrimination, they share common roots.

 

 

@Nonesuch and Anja

yeah I see ur point. Dont know if it's coz they are French or being english media and such but at least it's undeniable fact that there's general sentiment that Renault is regarded lightly despite its level of contribution and achievement, not getting due respect and credit for its expertise and devotion. Can be said to Red Bull, Vettel Ferrari etc. I'm equally not happy about these as well. They all have own shortcomings, maybe in RBR/Renault case it's because they been dominant for so long, but nothing justifies them getting unfairly negative perception or not getting due praise and recognition. I'll say the same against unfair negative campaign against Merc or whoever as well. I just dont share the idea of wishing teams/someone ill.

 

anyway sorry for derailing topic.

[Imateria]

As i understand it, Toyota only harvest under braking while Audi & Porsche can both harvest on throttle aswell.

If that true, then expect to see them go well again at the Tilkedromes. Le Mans? Who knows.

No, Porsche are the only one that can harvest on throttle thanks to an MGU-H like system, Audi and Toyota only have the breaking systems.

[Brother Fox]

Yes he has to. He came in by chiming in with prev poster's claim and further backing it up. So I went on to present perspective and ask why, which is the context here.
Or no he doesnt, because those WRC cheating and F1 bail out was not reason, just casual and convenient excuse. If u dont like it and it's ur "feeling", he could say so from the beginning, instead of making excuse by ad-lib, pretending it's reasonable, before admitting abruptly that it's just "feeling" only after pressed on, that's dishonest imo.

Honestly, what is the point you're making?

BMW, Ford etc have jack all to do with this, it's my opinion on Toyota. If you want my opinion on every topic ever maybe you should start a thread asking for people's opinions and telling them you know more about their thoughts than they do themselves.


As for changing my tack along the way,, did I start with the phrase "to my mind" or something similar? (On phone, and can't see previous post)

Ir is it all with some misconception that you think I'm hating on them because they're Japanese?

[jcbc3]

It seems I threw a stink bomb in here when I went OT with my Toyota posting. I am sorry for that.

Muramasa, I was stating what my emotional response is when I read/hear/talk about Toyota in motorsport. I also stated the reason for this response. When I put on my rational thinking cap, I know that the issue was many years ago and some very different characters are involved. I also know that punishment has been served. I also know that other manufacturers have been involved in shady dealings. But just as the leopard can't change it's spots you can't change peoples emotional response to certain stimuli. My point is nothing more, nothing less.

I have no animosity against Japanese and you would see from my previous postings on drivers in F1 that I count Kobayashi as my favourite driver of the current generation. With him at Le Mans and TomK out I am also hoping for a Toyota victory there now (but only if it's Koba's car!).

Hope this will calm the waters a bit.

Edited by jcbc3, 05 May 2015 - 05:49.

[KingTiger]

No, Porsche are the only one that can harvest on throttle thanks to an MGU-H like system, Audi and Toyota only have the breaking systems.

 

How do they harvest during throttle? 

[Victor_RO]

How do they harvest during throttle? 

 

Second turbine + generator in the exhaust system downstream of the turbocharger.

[KingTiger]

For me, the difference between Toyota and Porsche is that Porsche has remained consistently involved in sportscar racing at the international level, even without a factory presence in the top class. They withdrew after '98 (which is a shame, because that '99 LMP they designed with a V10 would have been a classic, I think) but they continued to build bucketloads of GT3/GT2/GTE 911s, had a factory driver roster in those cars, entered quasi-factory cars at Le Mans, and even dominated the ALMS for a few years with the epic RS Spyder.

 

Toyota, on the other hand, went cold turkey after their GT-ONE failure, just like they had before when the rules changed and made their TS010 obsolete for '94. Yes, they're still involved in Japan with the GT series, but Porsche has a continuous history going back to I guess the late 50s at Le Mans, while Toyota has been IMO much more lukewarm about motorsports in general.

 

I get the sense that Toyota does it when they think the overall car market is expanding and they can draw in additional customers through race marketing, but when the market contracts or slows they lose their incentive. Porsche does it because their entire brand image is built on it, so even if the P cars are withdrawn they'll still be there in some capacity.

 

GT-ONE wasn't a failure, they just decided to move towards F1 after '99. You can't blame them for not having the $ or interest to do both LMP and F1.

 

Second turbine + generator in the exhaust system downstream of the turbocharger.

 

Wouldn't that lower the pressures achieved by the turbo by a lot, due to Le Chatelier's law? 

[Gilles4Ever]

[Dan333SP]

GT-ONE wasn't a failure, they just decided to move towards F1 after '99. You can't blame them for not having the $ or interest to do both LMP and F1.

 

 

Wouldn't that lower the pressures achieved by the turbo by a lot, due to Le Chatelier's law? 

 

For the Toyota, I know they pulled out to enter F1 (just like BMW that same year), but I think most people regarded that car as a failure given its pace advantage, 3 entries in both '98 and '99, an all-star driver roster, and virtually limitless endurance testing that marked them as a clear favorite in the lead up to the '99 race. They even entered a car at the Fuji 1000K race that year just to give it one last shot at a win, and it managed to lose to the Nissan LMP R391. Shame, because it was one of the best looking LM cars ever. 

 

For the 919-

 

http://jalopnik.com/...y-we-1536368898

 

The article is about the '14 car. Last year's car had the same general system, but this year's car obviously is a great deal more efficient.

 

To expand on the article and comments, I think in layman's terms Porsche just eliminated the wastegate.The exhaust pressure that would normally be routed through the wastegate instead goes through the compressor of the turbo, but the max RPM of the turbo is regulated by the generator which converts the excess pressure on the blades into electricity. Apparently it can also act as an "e-turbo" to spin the turbine up to ideal rpm even while off-throttle to eliminate lag. Whatever they've done is really beyond my capacity to understand it fully, but clearly it works and it's fascinating.

Edited by Dan333SP, 05 May 2015 - 13:17.

[Lotusseven]

 

G-Drive blew the engine..

Edited by Lotusseven, 05 May 2015 - 15:00.

[Victor_RO]

G-Drive blew the engine..

 

The car went into the pits with about an hour and a bit to go after slowing down on the track with a failing engine and smoke from the exhaust, they sent it out to crawl around for the last lap to get classified and grab some points. I guess they can count themselves lucky that it finally blew 50 meters after the flag. 

[TF110]

In an interview with Anthony Davidson he mentions the LM spec car is unique to that circuit with extra low drag. They didnt run it at Spa because it wouldnt work there. Probably not enough downforce.