181 replies to this topic

[MrPodium]

my last post directed to you.

 

Each and every driver needs the car to be to his liking. - And the best drivers adapt.

So, in Lotus, he had steering issues with the car, I guess you remember that. However, he performed and outclassed and outpaced Grosjean on a regular basis. - Yes I do remember the steering issues, it gets trotted out on a regular basis to excuse sub-par performances.

In Ferrari, in 2008 I consider it to be a lot of bad luck (Hamilton hitting his car at the pit exit in Canada, the exhaust failure in France, etc.) - Again, more excuses. If's and but's dont win championships, which I keep repeating.

In 2009, Ferrari developed the car only to Massa's liking and then after Massa was injured they started listening to Kimi and he started performing.- Once they changed the steering rack (or front suspension, not sure which to be honest), but again, Raikkonen has too narrow an operating window.

I'm not gonna talk about the McLaren years, I don't see the point of it. 

 

People have ups and downs. Yes he had good performances and bad ones but look at 2009, Hamilton finished the season only a point ahead of Raikkonen. - Agreed. No arguments there, but there have been more downs than ups, it's seems (and once the cherry picking has stopped).

Alonso, a driver regarded by many to be the best on the current grid, messed up more than I can remember and hasn't won a title since 2006. I don't believe will win another one. - First part yes, I go along with that, second part, perhaps not. I think Alonso could well enjoy another championship winning season (if he's patient enough with McLaren).

Also another driver who is over-rated is Rosberg. - I don't think he's really ever been truly rated that highly. The press had to build him up last season for the sake of sustaining interest in the championship.

 

Vettel and Raikkonen are at the moment the strongest pairing in F1, since they like the car to be more or less the same, both are consistent and both can deliver. - I'd go for Alonso / Button personally.

 

All I'm trying to point out is that I think Raikkonen is overrated, and his motivation is questionable when things aren't 100% to his liking. Arrivabene has said as such with regards to Raikkonen's contract renewal. Therefore, I'd be inclined to choose Bottas for the seat if it became available. I know some on here think Raikkonen can do no wrong, and seem to have a pre-prepared list of reasons as to why he's not done this, that, or the other. I don't think my posts have been outlandish, and basically what I'm trying to say is that Raikkonen is fast, but his results are erratic. Therefore I'd take the cheaper option based upon the fact that the Ferrari is clearly on the up, the second best car on the grid, and I believe Bottas could be a solid point scorer, who could just maybe help Ferrari mount a serious challenge for the WCC next season. And I don't believe that to be an unfair statement in any way, shape or form. And thanks for taking the time not to simply trot out a dismissive one line reply. Appreciated.

Edited by MrPodium, 06 May 2015 - 05:30.

[ionutz2oo0]

All I'm trying to point out is that I think Raikkonen is overrated, and his motivation is questionable when things aren't 100% to his liking. Arrivabene has said as such with regards to Raikkonen's contract renewal. Therefore, I'd be inclined to choose Bottas for the seat if it became available. I know some on here think Raikkonen can do no wrong, and seem to have a pre-prepared list of reasons as to why he's not done this, that, or the other. I don't think my posts have been outlandish, and basically what I'm trying to say is that Raikkonen is fast, but his results are erratic. Therefore I'd take the cheaper option based upon the fact that the Ferrari is clearly on the up, the second best car on the grid, and I believe Bottas could be a solid point scorer, who could just maybe help Ferrari mount a serious challenge for the WCC next season. And I don't believe that to be an unfair statement in any way, shape or form. And thanks for taking the time not to simply trot out a dismissive one line reply. Appreciated.

I guess we all have drivers we like more than others. I rate Raikkonen very high and I am obviously biased towards him.

 

No problem with explaining. We both have our views on the subject and it's normal that we elaborate what we are saying. 

[tom]

I think kimi will win the title this year. His 2nd place at bahrain got his name all over the headlines so im pretty sure after a win this wknd he'll have a contract and pen thrown his way. Bottas is gd tho, just dont think its time to drop kimi, if they were going to sack him why not do it in his lousy 2014?

[DutchQuicksilver]

All I'm trying to point out is that I think Raikkonen is overrated, and his motivation is questionable when things aren't 100% to his liking. Arrivabene has said as such with regards to Raikkonen's contract renewal. Therefore, I'd be inclined to choose Bottas for the seat if it became available. I know some on here think Raikkonen can do no wrong, and seem to have a pre-prepared list of reasons as to why he's not done this, that, or the other. I don't think my posts have been outlandish, and basically what I'm trying to say is that Raikkonen is fast, but his results are erratic. Therefore I'd take the cheaper option based upon the fact that the Ferrari is clearly on the up, the second best car on the grid, and I believe Bottas could be a solid point scorer, who could just maybe help Ferrari mount a serious challenge for the WCC next season. And I don't believe that to be an unfair statement in any way, shape or form. And thanks for taking the time not to simply trot out a dismissive one line reply. Appreciated.

Why are you so keen on Bottas? So far he's not proven to be any better than Massa, whom many believe is well past his expiry date. What makes you think he can impress more than Kimi in the Ferrari? At least Kimi managed to beat Massa on merit when Massa was entering his prime years.

[MrPodium]

Why are you so keen on Bottas? So far he's not proven to be any better than Massa, whom many believe is well past his expiry date. What makes you think he can impress more than Kimi in the Ferrari? At least Kimi managed to beat Massa on merit when Massa was entering his prime years.

 

Well, to be honest, I'm not overly impressed with him, either. I'd much rather see Hulkenberg in the seat, but that's another story. I also seem to recall that Massa beat Raikkonen in 2008, and seemed to have the measure of him in 2009 until his unfortunate accident. It's well documented that Raikkonen isn't the most adaptable of driver (please, let's not go back there for the sake of this thread) and he was comprehensively outdriven by Alonso last year. I also think Bottas is hungrier than Raikkonen. For those reasons, and the comments Arrivabene made, I really do think Ferrari have nothing to lose by giving Bottas a chance.

[tmekt]

Well, to be honest, I'm not overly impressed with him, either. I'd much rather see Hulkenberg in the seat, but that's another story. I also seem to recall that Massa beat Raikkonen in 2008, and seemed to have the measure of him in 2009 until his unfortunate accident. It's well documented that Raikkonen isn't the most adaptable of driver (please, let's not go back there for the sake of this thread) and he was comprehensively outdriven by Alonso last year. I also think Bottas is hungrier than Raikkonen. For those reasons, and the comments Arrivabene made, I really do think Ferrari have nothing to lose by giving Bottas a chance.

Hülkenberg is probably a bit overrated as well. He has had chances to win races but one way or another has managed to **** them up. Brazil 2012 being a perfect example, spun in the lead and then had a completely unnecessary crash with Hamilton.

Either way, Kimi is a proven driver and he can do phenomenal things when he gets the opportunity. If they have a winning car, Kimi can win, which is enough, really, to keep him in there. And even if he isn't adaptable (who's to say Bottas or Hülkenberg would be better in that sense, they've never been in that situation), Ferrari knows exactly what he does need to be fast and it's not really that difficult to deliver a car to fulfill those needs.

Edited by tmekt, 06 May 2015 - 14:56.

[MrPodium]

Hülkenberg is probably a bit overrated as well. He has had chances to win races but one way or another has managed to **** them up. Brazil 2012 being a perfect example, spun in the lead and then had a completely unnecessary crash with Hamilton.

Either way, Kimi is a proven driver and he can do phenomenal things when he gets the opportunity. If they have a winning car, Kimi can win, which is enough, really, to keep him in there. And even if he isn't adaptable (who's to say Bottas or Hülkenberg would be better in that sense, they've never been in that situation), Ferrari knows exactly what he does need to be fast and it's not really that difficult to deliver a car to fulfill those needs.

 

So we're back to designing the car around a driver's deficiencies once more. And it's an argument that can never be countered because we would never know how driver B would fare given the same equipment. And so the vicious circle starts yet another rotation. But not for me, I don't think this is getting anywhere, I'm not into the if's, but's and maybe world championships, I quite like to talk mertis of driver A vs driver B and let the discussion flow from there.

[tmekt]

So we're back to designing the car around a driver's deficiencies once more. And it's an argument that can never be countered because we would never know how driver B would fare given the same equipment. And so the vicious circle starts yet another rotation. But not for me, I don't think this is getting anywhere, I'm not into the if's, but's and maybe world championships, I quite like to talk mertis of driver A vs driver B and let the discussion flow from there.

So you made a post saying you don't want to make a post? 

 

Just think of it as having the choice of ordering a soup or a pasta. If you order a pasta, you can eat it both with a fork and a spoon but soup you can't. If you did order a soup you probably knew this in advance so if you try to eat it with a fork and aren't successful, do you take it back or suck it up and try again with a spoon?

[Al.]

The original story in this thread rounded up by suggesting that Pascal Wehrlein would replace a Ferrari bound Bottas at Williams for a Mercedes discount.

This would be the same Pascal Wehrlein that (short of getting 5 race starts this year ) isn't going to be eligible for a Superlicence next year?

[MrPodium]

So you made a post saying you don't want to make a post?

Just think of it as having the choice of ordering a soup or a pasta. If you order a pasta, you can eat it both with a fork and a spoon but soup you can't. If you did order a soup you probably knew this in advance so if you try to eat it with a fork and aren't successful, do you take it back or suck it up and try again with a spoon?

No, I complained that if only my soup didn't have chronic understeer, I'd be able to drink it more effectively!

[ionutz2oo0]

Can we back get on topic? This wasn't created as a Raikkonen vs. all other drivers vs. all other cars if his car wouldn't understeer. 

 

Facts are that Williams has an option on Bottas for next year, that's what i read on a French website recently.. nextgen something it's called and Ferrari we all know has an option on Raikkonen.

 

I really don't see the point of debating if's and how's and would's and wouldn't's. 

[aramos]

Why are you so keen on Bottas? So far he's not proven to be any better than Massa, whom many believe is well past his expiry date. What makes you think he can impress more than Kimi in the Ferrari? At least Kimi managed to beat Massa on merit when Massa was entering his prime years.

Massa out scored Kimi.

[REDalert]

All I'm trying to point out is that I think Raikkonen is overrated, and his motivation is questionable when things aren't 100% to his liking. Arrivabene has said as such with regards to Raikkonen's contract renewal. Therefore, I'd be inclined to choose Bottas for the seat if it became available. I know some on here think Raikkonen can do no wrong, and seem to have a pre-prepared list of reasons as to why he's not done this, that, or the other. I don't think my posts have been outlandish, and basically what I'm trying to say is that Raikkonen is fast, but his results are erratic. Therefore I'd take the cheaper option based upon the fact that the Ferrari is clearly on the up, the second best car on the grid, and I believe Bottas could be a solid point scorer, who could just maybe help Ferrari mount a serious challenge for the WCC next season. And I don't believe that to be an unfair statement in any way, shape or form. And thanks for taking the time not to simply trot out a dismissive one line reply. Appreciated.

Even if Kimi would be too sensitive about the car to be to his liking, why should they replace him how when he actually is comfortable with the car, now when they have Allison who knows how to build a car Kimi likes? Kimi with a car that he likes is more than decent nr2 driver, or a solid point scorer. He is right up there with LuLu, Alo, and Vettel.. 

[taziosenna881]

I question the knowledge of any fan who does not realize Raikkonen is one of the fastest, but also most sensitive drivers ever. I remember Brundle saying this: 

 

"When looking at the last 20 years, I've seen drivers with talents in different ways but I don't think I've seen another Ayrton. Probably the closest was Michael Schumacher, but Senna was driven by the heart and Schumacher by the head. Schumacher was the more complete driver, but Senna had more natural talent. But of course we are talking tiny percentages, as these two were some of the best drivers that ever sat in a racing car in. Kimi (Raikkonen) has speed, but he doesn't have Senna's application. Senna was also smart in politics. He was one of the few guys who could control Ron (Dennis). So no, we haven't really seen another Senna yet."

 

I also remember several articles back in his McLaren days emphasizing how he needs the perfect setup for his style. But when its there drivers like Bottas cannot compare frankly. Never seen a driver that finds the limit of the front axle as well as Kimi. That is basically the fastest way to drive an F1 car. In a twisted way, what happened last year only CONFIRMS what most people already thought about Kimi. Fast, but sensitive. I saw it coming from a mile away. Ferrari would be dumb to let him go now that the car is more to his liking. It is simple really.

Edited by taziosenna881, 07 May 2015 - 01:47.

[MrPodium]

Even if Kimi would be too sensitive about the car to be to his liking, why should they replace him how when he actually is comfortable with the car, now when they have Allison who knows how to build a car Kimi likes? Kimi with a car that he likes is more than decent nr2 driver, or a solid point scorer. He is right up there with LuLu, Alo, and Vettel..

No he's not. Hamilton and Alonso have a proven history of driving around a car's shortcomings, or characteristics that they are not comfortable with, if you prefer. Vettel couldn't get to grips with a race winning car, and I've already mentioned Rsikkonen in my previous posts.

Now it's all well and good saying "oh, as long as Allison builds a car with a pointy front end, there's no need to replace Raikonnen", but does anyone seriously expect Ferrsri to invest their entire development path to keep one driver happy? What happens when having an ultra grippy front end actually becomes detrimental to the outright pace of the car? What happens if the other driver is scoring good points on a consistent basis in a car Raikkonen hates (Afonso, 2014)? Do they ignore that driver, to help poor old Kimi out? What's to say that the suspension Arrivabene had redesigned wasn't outright faster than the version specifically tailored for a pair of drivers who like oversteer, basically?

I'm sure all of these points, and many, many more have been considered by Ferrari's hierarchy. With F1's ever changing regulations, driver adaptability is key. Raikkonen can't adapt, his performance window is narrow. Perhaps the reasons I've mentioned, plus Arrivabene's comments are exactly why Ferrari haven't signed Rsikkonon, and Bottas seems to be an option.

Apologies for the spelling, it's 4:30am, I'm on my iPhone and very, very tired. I hope I've made my points sufficiently clear, though I realise it's going to enrage a certain proportion of contributors to this thread.

Edited by MrPodium, 07 May 2015 - 03:38.

[ionutz2oo0]

Massa out scored Kimi.

yes, in 2008 he outscored Kimi but lost the WDC while in 2007, Kimi outscored Massa and Kimi also became WDC. 

 

See, there's something wrong with comparing Raikkonen and Massa. In equal machinery one managed to become a WDC while the other hasn't. It's that simple. 

 

Some comparisons are simply unfounded or pointless. In the same car, in 2007 Raikkonen won the WDC. My question to you is where was Massa? Since 2004, Massa only beat Raikkonen in 3 seasons(2006,2008,2014) not counting 2009 as Massa got injured, while in 2010 and 2011 Kimi was busy being a man, learning how to dig his car out of snow and how to drive fast on gravel. so out of 7 seasons that had them both race in F1, Raikkonen was the better driver in 4 of them while also becoming WDC in 2007. 

 

If Hamilton would this year be outscored by a Rosberg who would only finish second in the standings, and next year they would both have an avereage year, 3rd or 4th in the standings, would you say that Rosberg is the better driver?

 

Would you dare compare Hamilton and Alonso? Would you say that Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso based on 2007 when Hamilton as a rookie was faster? I know they both had 12 podiums and the same number of points however Hamilton was more consistent especially in the first half of the season.

 

It's the same with Vettel and Ricciardo, people keep saying that Vettel is not so good, that Ricciardo was better. All this based on one year where Vettel didn't perform that well. However, no one seems to care that before last season Vettel won 4 WDC's. 

 

Hope this puts an end to the whole Massa outscored Raikkonen debate as it's already getting stupid. 

If you ask me, Massa is the most over rated driver in the history of the sport. I'd have said Alonso but he got 2 WDC's to his name. But I find him really over-rated. 

Edited by ionutz2oo0, 07 May 2015 - 03:51.

[taziosenna881]

Button also outscored Hamilton. Trulli beat FA in 2004. Hamilton beat FA in 2007. What is your point? Ultimately Bottas won't be going to Ferrari if Kimi keeps performing. Pretty obvious.

Edited by taziosenna881, 07 May 2015 - 05:47.

[totgate]

Bottas is really really good. He is also a very strong Team player so i think he would be a perfect fit along side Vettel. Kimis glory days are probably over, he was fantastic when he was at Mclaren but after that??? nope... :-)

[RubalSher]

Kimi needs to give Vettel a run for his money if he hopes to drive for Ferrari next year. Anything less and it could be curtains for Kimi.

[DutchQuicksilver]

No he's not. Hamilton and Alonso have a proven history of driving around a car's shortcomings, or characteristics that they are not comfortable with, if you prefer. Vettel couldn't get to grips with a race winning car, and I've already mentioned Rsikkonen in my previous posts.

Has Hamilton really? I mean, he was not so good in the first half of 2009 when the McLaren was very poor. He also wasn't able to overcome McLaren's issues in 2012 and wasn't able to nurture the tyres on the Mercedes in 2013.

 

Out of the current grid, it's really only Alonso who's proven to be able to drive around a car's shortcomings. 2008, 2009 and 2012 being prime examples of it.

[PMM3]

Kimi needs to give Vettel a run for his money if he hopes to drive for Ferrari next year. Anything less and it could be curtains for Kimi.

Its only a friendly fight, no money involved. So most likely Kimi will be behind curtains next year.

[Lulabaloo]

Why are you so keen on Bottas? So far he's not proven to be any better than Massa, whom many believe is well past his expiry date. What makes you think he can impress more than Kimi in the Ferrari? At least Kimi managed to beat Massa on merit when Massa was entering his prime years.

 

No he didn't.

[FunBobby]

No he didn't.

So what happend? Please tell us. Massa can qualifie well and then... That's all. Since the quali is not so crucial anymore he is nowhere.

[ardbeg]

First of all, all this talk about Kimi is too sensitive/unmotivated if the car's no good is really not a big factor of the equation. Even if true. Ferrari aim to have a good car and drivers that can win in that car. 5th or 7th is no difference. So comparisons should be done between a motivated Kimi and a motivated Bottas, driving a car that suits them. I don't know who would come out on top.

This possible "pre contract" and Ferrari's urge for Kimi to fight for another contract is a good thing, IMO. First of all - if Kimi really care, if Kimi really are lazy, it is in his own hands to maximize his performance. I guess that means more hours in the gym and less in the bar. The other thing it is good for is that if, which has been suggested, Vettel has a #1 deal then a fast Kimi would expose that. If such a contract is exposed, Bottas will know it as well.

[metz]

So there is no Bottas/Ferrari deal.

Was another fart in a bicycle tube, that just went round and round.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118822

[Lulabaloo]

So what happend? Please tell us. Massa can qualifie well and then... That's all. Since the quali is not so crucial anymore he is nowhere.

 

In 2007 Massa was leading Kimi until he had a DNF in Monza(thirteenth race of the season) and Ferrari decided to favor Kimi since the McLarens were far ahead and Kimi needed a big help in Interlagos to clinch the DC. In 2008 I hope you remember what happened. 2009 Massa was beating Kimi when he had the accident. If that's not enough we also have Alonso as a benchmark.

As to the topic at hand, yes, Bottas would be an improvement over Kimi.

[ensign14]

So there is no Bottas/Ferrari deal.

Was another fart in a bicycle tube, that just went round and round.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118822

 

"Never believe anything until it is officially denied."  -The Rt Hon James Hacker MP

[sennafan24]

Has Hamilton really? I mean, he was not so good in the first half of 2009 when the McLaren was very poor. He also wasn't able to overcome McLaren's issues in 2012 and wasn't able to nurture the tyres on the Mercedes in 2013.

I disagree. Those examples are quite poor.

 

Arguing that Lewis was not so good at the start of 2009, is like arguing that Alonso has not been that good at the start of 2015. Lewis's 2012 was hindered by a host of team issues, not his own ability to adapt. Lewis's 2013 was patchy. But again, I doubt Alonso could have nurtured those tyres, nor anyone else on the grid.

[emil]

In 2007 Massa was leading Kimi until he had a DNF in Monza(thirteenth race of the season) and Ferrari decided to favor Kimi since the McLarens were far ahead and Kimi needed a big help in Interlagos to clinch the DC. In 2008 I hope you remember what happened. 2009 Massa was beating Kimi when he had the accident. If that's not enough we also have Alonso as a benchmark.

As to the topic at hand, yes, Bottas would be an improvement over Kimi.

 

In 2008 Kimi was beating Massa at the half season. After Spa Ferrari decided to favor Massa, but he couldn't achieve what Kimi did the year before, even with his help. In 2009 you remember what happened,

Edited by emil, 07 May 2015 - 14:57.

[Disgrace]

Back on topic from this point on please.

[ardbeg]

In 2007 Massa was leading Kimi until he had a DNF in Monza(thirteenth race of the season) ..

Yes, his first DNF. Before that, Kimi had two. Anyway, we can look at points but Ferrari have much more data. And I mean data. They replaced Massa with Kimi and I am sure that they used their knowledge of them both before making a decision. They will not have so much data on Bottas though.

[Gilles4Ever]

There is clearly no longer anything to discuss that is on topic.
This thread has run its course.