29 replies to this topic

[D28]

Much information exists, some of it conflicting, on the move by by Gianni Lancia to wrap up his racing team in the summer of 1955. This followed the death of Alberto Ascari and the onslaught of severe financial  difficulties for the parent Lancia company. Clearly Enzo Ferrari benefited from receiving cars, engines, spares, drawings, even the services of Vittorio Jano; what is not so clear is who reimbursed Lancia for the transaction. Karl Ludvigsen in Red-Hot Rivals touches briefly  on the subject and says

"Ferrari was heavily bankrolled by Italian business interests including Fiat. which had underwritten an annual subsidy of some $84,0000 to carry on racing." No contemporary accounts mention the reaction of the Orsi family to these developments, but they couldn't have been very well pleased; just two years later they could have benefited from some bankrolling themselves. 

 

Questions I pose : Did Fiat reimburse Lancia for the racing equipment?

 

                              What is the proper identification of the models as raced by Ferrari in 1956. I have seen reference to all three combinations of the names Ferrari and Lancia in historical records. Presumably the cars were entered as Ferraris in 1956, is that  reckoned to be the proper terminology, or is it Lancia-Ferrari etc.?

 

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, I searched but found nothing relevant.

 

 

[Vitesse2]

I don't think there's a definitive answer to the type numbers. Or the name of the Lancia/Ferrari/Lancia-Ferrari D50/801. It's like the Formula A/Formula 1 question from the late 1940s - different writers did different things.

 

As I recall, Ferrari produced two interim modifications of the cars - the first as raced in Argentina and then a further version which appeared at Siracusa. But they didn't call them anything different - Setright's Grand Prix Car 1954-66 records who raced what and where (I think all three versions may have run at Siracusa?) and I transferred that to my Black Books, defining them as D50A and D50S. AFAIK both those still retained the pontoon fuel tanks, which I suppose are the defining difference between the D50 and the 801.

[ReWind]

Is there any pictorial evidence whether or not the V8 engines were still badged "Lancia" when entered by Scuderia Ferrari (in case they were badged that way before)?

[Tim Murray]

In this earlier thread:

http://forums.autosp...lancia-ferrari/

there were suggestions that the 1956 designation might have been either CL18 or 8CL, but no conclusive evidence was produced for either suggestion.

[D-Type]

In 1956 the cars were entered as "Ferraris" but writers like Denis Jenkinson used the term "Lancia-Ferrari" to acknowledge the cars' origins and to differentiate them from the various 'true' Ferraris: 500, 625, 553  'Squalo' and 555 'Super Squalo' cars, which were still around.

[Michael Ferner]

In 1956 the cars were entered as "Ferraris" but writers like Denis Jenkinson used the term "Lancia-Ferrari" to acknowledge the cars' origins and to differentiate them from the various 'true' Ferraris: 500, 625, 553  'Squalo' and 555 'Super Squalo' cars, which were still around.

Absolutely correct. The term Lancia-Ferrari is, historically, incorrect and merely a type definition like Centro Sud Maserati/BRM. Of course, it's not the same, but technically the cars were Ferraris, and perhaps it would be proper to call them Lancia Ferraris, i.e. w/o the hyphen. It really becomes nonsense when the original Lancia input was reduced to almost nil in 1957.

[Tuboscocca]

I don't think there's a definitive answer to the type numbers. Or the name of the Lancia/Ferrari/Lancia-Ferrari D50/801. It's like the Formula A/Formula 1 question from the late 1940s - different writers did different things.

 

As I recall, Ferrari produced two interim modifications of the cars - the first as raced in Argentina and then a further version which appeared at Siracusa. But they didn't call them anything different - Setright's Grand Prix Car 1954-66 records who raced what and where (I think all three versions may have run at Siracusa?) and I transferred that to my Black Books, defining them as D50A and D50S. AFAIK both those still retained the pontoon fuel tanks, which I suppose are the defining difference between the D50 and the 801.

Ferrari adopted the pannier side tanks very quickly, but as an aerodynamic device.With them they covered the megaphone pipes and closed the gap between f/r wheels. The fueltank went to the back with a small reserve on one side.

Furthermore according to the old Alan Henry book they continued to use the numbering as D50 with individual chassis number following.I.e. D50/0001.

Must search for a recent article in Cavallino, which dealt with the 'gift' from Gianni Lancia..

 

regards Michael

[D28]

Ferrari adopted the pannier side tanks very quickly, but as an aerodynamic device.With them they covered the megaphone pipes and closed the gap between f/r wheels. The fueltank went to the back with a small reserve on one side.

Furthermore according to the old Alan Henry book they continued to use the numbering as D50 with individual chassis number following.I.e. D50/0001.

Must search for a recent article in Cavallino, which dealt with the 'gift' from Gianni Lancia..

 

regards Michael

The article in Cavallino is fairly brief and states Fiat brokered the deal with Lancia for the equipment.

http://www.cavallino...the-lancia-d50/

[Roger Clark]

By the time of the Syracuse Grand Prix, Ferrari had moved almost all the fuel to the tail, fundamentally changing Lancia's design concept. They had also changed the rear suspension, put a frame around the engine and changed the bore and stroke. I was brought up calling the cars Lancia Ferraris (whether the words were separated by a hyphen, a slash or a space seems irrelevant) but I think that with those changes, Ferrari was justified in putting his name on the car.

Back in the days when they sold cars in the UK, I remember a Lancia advertisement describing the D50 as "the car that dominated mid-50s Grand Prix racing". It took me a little while to realise what they meant but it was good to see a car company advertising a racing history.

[RA Historian]

I don't know if there really is an answer for the designation of the cars. For what it is worth, I have always used the following nomenclature.

 

In 1956 the cars were owned, operated, serviced, entered, raced, etc., as Ferraris. Hence, they are Ferraris. As to the model type, I have always called them Lancias, with further designation as D50. Therefore, to me at least, the '56 cars were Ferrari Lancia D50, no hyphen.

 

For 1957 the cars were sufficiently changed, bodywork, engineering, and so forth, that I dropped the Lancia model designation I refer to these cars as the Ferrari 801.

 

Nothing official, of course, but it works for me.

 

Tom

[Doug Nye]

Lancia was a troubled company even at the height of its postwar racing prowess in 1953-55.  But as described in Geoffrey Goldberg's new book 'Lancia and De Virgilio", gross revenues of 26.7 billion Lire in 1954 were a new record high, but production volume was modest in relation to a costly product-line to manufacture and an extensive racing programme. But Lancia received limited benefit from the postwar Marshall Plan to rebuild war-shattered Europe, much less than Fiat or Alfa Romeo. Lancia was also slow to rebuild its production facilities, and to modernise them, and in parallel with the racing programme they had also embarked upon building an expensive new factory. Italian labour troubles were always a problem, and in combination all these commitments and problems brought down the company.  It's doubtful Lancia was making any profit at all.

 

The building programme gobbled-up material supplied by concrete contractor Italcementi, headed by Carlo Pesenti, and he eventually bought out the major motor company shareholding of the Lancia family, plus the 12 per cent owned by the Vaccarossi family. The Lancia Corse racing department was officially closed on June 1, 1955, and its hardware formally handed over to Ferrari - with new Fiat financial backing - on July 26, 1955. The handover included six D50 cars and 60 crates of spares...

 

DCN

[Tuboscocca]

Is there any pictorial evidence whether or not the V8 engines were still badged "Lancia" when entered by Scuderia Ferrari (in case they were badged that way before)?

..in the new Pritchard GP Ferrari edition ,there is a photo from the  Lancia times with the Lancia logo in the cam cover, and one in the Ferrari time -without- this Lancia logo (and re-routed ignition leads).But no Ferrari logo.

If they have done new castings or used the lower (logo-less) cam cover (if symetrical)-I don't know..

 

Michael

[Tuboscocca]

The article in Cavallino is fairly brief and states Fiat brokered the deal with Lancia for the equipment.

http://www.cavallino...the-lancia-d50/

D 28: I meant the printed story of A.Blanfuney in Cavallino 189:

 

10 FEATURE:
• Rescued by a Competitor...
• The story of the “Lancia-Ferrari” D50 winning
the Championship in 1956 has been well told. But
the story of how Ferrari ended up with the Lancia
D50s has never been fully documented. It’s a tale
of tragedy and intrigue, but in the end, a tale of
faith, cooperation and good results.
• The tortured trail as told and documented by
Historian Arnaud Blanfuney.
• Rare historical images from The Klemantaski
Collection and Arnaud Blanfuney.
• Cutaway drawings by famed Paolo D’Alessio.

 

Regards Michael

[D28]

D 28: I meant the printed story of A.Blanfuney in Cavallino 189:

 

10 FEATURE:
• Rescued by a Competitor...
• The story of the “Lancia-Ferrari” D50 winning
the Championship in 1956 has been well told. But
the story of how Ferrari ended up with the Lancia
D50s has never been fully documented. It’s a tale
of tragedy and intrigue, but in the end, a tale of
faith, cooperation and good results.
• The tortured trail as told and documented by
Historian Arnaud Blanfuney.
• Rare historical images from The Klemantaski
Collection and Arnaud Blanfuney.
• Cutaway drawings by famed Paolo D’Alessio.

 

Regards Michael

Thanks very much. I occasionally buy Cavallino and consider it an accurate source. This volume would answer most of my queries. I think we can conclude from recent posts here, that the payment for the equipment transfer came from Fiat.

[wenoopy]

..in the new Pritchard GP Ferrari edition ,there is a photo from the  Lancia times with the Lancia logo in the cam cover, and one in the Ferrari time -without- this Lancia logo (and re-routed ignition leads).But no Ferrari logo.

If they have done new castings or used the lower (logo-less) cam cover (if symetrical)-I don't know..

 

Michael

 

On page 89 of 'Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1958' by DSJ, reviewing the 1957 Formula 1 season, there is a photo of a 1957 D50 engine. It clearly shows a 'Ferrari' logo on the cam-cover edge, in the same place as the Lancia logo in a similar photo in the 1954 season edition of the book. Since Ferrari regarded the cars as being Ferraris, I would imagine that any engines produced after the handover from Lancia would have been labelled "Ferrari", not Lancia.

 

Jenks' caption for the 1957 photo includes "It will be seen how the engine retains the original Lancia system of being bolted between the bulkhead and the front suspension, though the frame tube below the engine is now of much greater diameter". 

 

Stu Buchanan

[Tuboscocca]

On page 89 of 'Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1958' by DSJ, reviewing the 1957 Formula 1 season, there is a photo of a 1957 D50 engine. It clearly shows a 'Ferrari' logo on the cam-cover edge, in the same place as the Lancia logo in a similar photo in the 1954 season edition of the book. Since Ferrari regarded the cars as being Ferraris, I would imagine that any engines produced after the handover from Lancia would have been labelled "Ferrari", not Lancia.

 

Jenks' caption for the 1957 photo includes "It will be seen how the engine retains the original Lancia system of being bolted between the bulkhead and the front suspension, though the frame tube below the engine is now of much greater diameter". 

 

Stu Buchanan

Stu thank you--didn't know this.Maybe I can find this photo elsewhere.

 

Michael

[geoffg]

Lancia was a troubled company even at the height of its postwar racing prowess in 1953-55. But as described in Geoffrey Goldberg's new book 'Lancia and De Virgilio", gross revenues of 26.7 billion Lire in 1954 were a new record high, but production volume was modest in relation to a costly product-line to manufacture and an extensive racing programme. But Lancia received limited benefit from the postwar Marshall Plan to rebuild war-shattered Europe, much less than Fiat or Alfa Romeo. Lancia was also slow to rebuild its production facilities, and to modernise them, and in parallel with the racing programme they had also embarked upon building an expensive new factory. Italian labour troubles were always a problem, and in combination all these commitments and problems brought down the company. It's doubtful Lancia was making any profit at all.

The building programme gobbled-up material supplied by concrete contractor Italcementi, headed by Carlo Pesenti, and he eventually bought out the major motor company shareholding of the Lancia family, plus the 12 per cent owned by the Vaccarossi family. The Lancia Corse racing department was officially closed on June 1, 1955, and its hardware formally handed over to Ferrari - with new Fiat financial backing - on July 26, 1955. The handover included six D50 cars and 60 crates of spares...

DCN

Thank you for kind thoughts. A few items to add to the discussion:

- while there has been some confusion about post-war aid to Lancia, in the past year, some additional research has clarified much of this. Paolo Giusti (Lancia researcher in Torino) has been through the Lancia corporate records, recently uncovered in the Fiat Archives, and has been able to determine that Lancia applied for, and received, around $3mil of loans from the aid program. He also found information about equipment purchases and other modernization efforts, but in the wake of the growing labor unrest (1952 was difficult year), this was probably too little too late.

- DCN is right in not likely making any profit in those years. The overlap of the building effort and the racing effort was too much.

- the D50A was a revision of the D50 done by Lancia in the end of 1954, with the block and crank made a bit longer to allow wider bearings. The photo I have of the D50 crankshaft (I think on display at Maranello) is stamped "D50A".

- Ferrari revised the cars significantly, but the comment above (not DCN) of "original Lancia input was nil" is not accurate. They still ran Lancia running gear, among other things. They were modified, not remade.

- AFAIK, FIat's annual contribution of 50 million lire for five years went to Ferrari, and Lancia was not reimbursed for their costs. Also In the deal was Jano's consultancy contract, running with Lancia through 1958, although he was at Ferrari from mid-1955 on.

 

For a fun look at Fangio flying around Monaco in a D50/Ferrari - take a look at: ▶ Juan Manuel Fangio - YouTube from 7:50 on. 

Geoff

Edited by geoffg, 11 May 2015 - 13:36.

[D28]

- AFAIK, FIat's annual contribution of 50 million lire for five years went to Ferrari, and Lancia was not reimbursed for their costs. Also In the deal was Jano's consultancy contract, running with Lancia through 1958, although he was at Ferrari from mid-1955 on.

 

 

Difficult to know at this stage. Still it is hard to believe that Lancia faced with bankruptcy could afford to simply give the equipment to Ferrari. One would expect them to try and realize what they could from their real and intellectual property, which would represent considerable value. As I said above, there seems to be a fair amount of mystery regarding this transfer of equipment and a lot of disinformation.

Edited by D28, 12 May 2015 - 16:36.

[geoffg]

It might help to see this in context. Lancia had essentially already passed from family hands to Pesenti and they were closing the racing team down. Thus, they gave the material, rather than scrapping it. This  is based on De Virgilio's diary and description of what happened that day (he was a leading Lancia engineer, involved with the race team, and was there that day), and Lancia's press release of the event. There is no mention of any funds from Fiat in Lancia's corporate records but they are not that specific. 

 

"Donation" has been in consistently used in describing this exchange, such as by Bernabo in his 1965 writeup of the handover. More info can be found in Lancia and De Virgilio, At the Center. 

Edited by geoffg, 13 May 2015 - 16:39.

[Arjan de Roos]

Enzo stated that he found it unfair that 'his' cars were being referred to as Lancia in any combination to Ferrari. This as they had made several modifications.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Happily, I was lcky enough to see those wonderful cars at Silverstone in 1956 (Trophy Race and Grand Prix).  Sadly, I felt that they had a more brutal look about them after passing into

Ferrari's hands.

[Roger Clark]

I don't know whether anybody else reads the online magazine GP+.  A recent edition featured an article by Joe Saward about the proposed, or rumoured, rebranding of a Mercedes F1 engine as an Aston-Martin for use by Red Bull.  (Red Bull-Aston-martin-Mercedes-Benz?  Should keep the commentators busy).

 

Saward made the point that such things had been done before, citing the Lancia/Ferraris as an example.  i don't think the analogy is quite accurate but the interesting thing is that the article was illustrated, not with the usual cars, but with a picture of the Lancia-engined Ferrari 555 that Gendebien drove in Argentina.  A Ferrari-Lancia (using modern naming conventions) rather than a Lancia/Ferrari?  It's not a car I've seen many pictures of as it was clearly not a Good Idea and quickly abandoned.

[Arjan de Roos]

It was a Super Squalo chassis with a Lancia engine mounted. Indeed a true Ferrari-Lancia. It was made as a test to see if that was an option for 1956. Only the engine survived. 

[Claudio Navonne]

It was a Super Squalo chassis with a Lancia engine mounted. Indeed a true Ferrari-Lancia. It was made as a test to see if that was an option for 1956. Only the engine survived. 

 

In the photo on the left, there is the Peter Collins´s Ferrari, on the right is the Ferrari with Lancia engine driven by Gendebien.

The photos are from the magazine "Velocidad" of January 1956.

Edited by Claudio Navonne, 01 August 2015 - 20:46.

[Roger Clark]

It is remarkable how much experimentation Ferrarri did in late 1955 and '56. He sent six cars to Argentina, all different. There was a standard D50 (Castellotti), two differently modified Lancias (Fangio and Musso), a standard 555 "Super Squalo" (Collins), a modified Super Squalo (practice only) and the Lancia engined Super Squalo (Gendebien). By the start of the European season he had further modified the Lancias to arrive at the Lancia/Ferrarri spec used for most of the season. He continued the experiments, briefly trying independent rear suspension and fully enclosed bodywork. He also developed the engines throughout the year.

Don't believe people when they tell you about upgrades brought to each race by modern F1 teams as though it is something new.

[geoffg]

Interesting observations. Does anyone have any information on Ferrari's general disposition at this time? I wonder if he was mad as heck about having to run a different motor/car, did he care? Perhaps the outpouring of invention in 1955/56 was his looking for the next breakthrough on his own terms. Although clearly strength of will and resilience were two personal strengths. Must have been interesting times. 

[Roger Clark]

My understanding is that Ferrari had two main interests:  winning races and finding the money to do so.  He knew that his four-cylinder cars were outdated so the gift of the Lancias and the subsidy from Fiat were exactly what he needed.  He had no reservations about getting rid of a car that had outlived its time and concentrating on a new one even if it meant a few uncompetitive races while their replacements were developed.  It would happen with the Lancias in 1957, the Sharknose in 1962, the V12 in 1969 and the Flat12 in 1980.

 

it happened with drivers and engineers too.

[Charlieman]

Does anyone have any information on Ferrari's general disposition at this time? 

Enzo Ferrari biographies suggest that he was always a pain. But he must have smiled when the Lancia deal provided him with Vittorio Jano as a designer.

[Doug Nye]

I have been told that after much Lambrusco had been consumed, Mr Ferrari and Jano would sometimes play out a half-spoof, half-needling scenario when dining together with important visitors from elsewhere in the racing world. Mr Ferrari would berate Jano for perceived inadequacies in their latest V8 or V6 engines - i.e. those in which Jano had had considerable input - and complain about how much Jano's services were costing (from the Fiat subsidy, presumably). It would then be Jano's turn to complain bitterly about how badly Ferrari was treating him, and why was it that when he had been Ferrari's senior at Alfa Romeo he always treated Ferrari well and with generosity and respect, and now that the boot was on the other foot Mr Ferrari always treated him, Jano, so badly, paid him so poorly and worked him like a slave, and generally made his life s---?  By some accounts Jano was an extremely ascetic, dry, earnest individual - by this one he was at least capable of considerable if perhaps sarcastic humour, and some sense of fun. Has anyone heard different?

 

DCN

[Roger Clark]

I have no idea whether that story is true, but I hope it is.