75 replies to this topic

[redreni]

Seems you got my point. We arrest parents for leaving their kids in a locked car in a parking lot. But strapping them in a steel cage and letting them hurtle around a race track with others is somehow okay?

 

The fact that there are occasional fatalities doesn't make it a dangerous activity. There aren't black and white categories of "safe" and "dangerous". Some things are just riskier than others. For example, most parents run similar levels of risk with their children's safety when transporting them from A to B by road, or teaching them to ride a bike, than they would take by allowing a kid to race mini stocks. It's just that when a child dies in a road traffic accident we don't hear about it.

 

A level of risk is accepted. Motorsport used to be extremely dangerous, partly because technological advances which now mitigate a lot of risks weren't available then, and partly because the sport didn't do enough to get rid of easily avoidable dangers.

 

There is always more to do, and further to go, in making improvements and advances and getting rid of avoidable danger, but by now, motorsport is not especially risky when compared to a lot of other things an active child might be doing with their weekend. A parent would have no rational basis, therefore, for singling motorsport out as being too dangerous an activity for their child. They would have to keep their child away from a lot of other activities as well, and a kid has to be able to live his life.

[bestF1]

Yes, some things are more risky than others. That is why, for example, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents not buy their kids a trampoline. If a parent chooses to ignore that advice, and their child ends up in a wheelchair or whatnot, then in my view it's on them. There are plenty of other fun things kids can do that are less risky. What I find interesting is that advocates of home trampolines use many of the same arguments used in this discussion. "It's so fun!"   "I did it when I was a kid," etc.

 

In any case, if Ministox really is "very safe," as some here claim, then clearly it would be wrong to suggest that parents make better choices and I apologize for having done so.

 

I really would like to see some hard data, though.

[Myrvold]

Ahh, the trampoline. Now mandatory to have safety nets on them here in Norway. Problem is, the only deaths we've had on trampoline, have been due to those nets...

 

Anyway, you cannot keep the kids away from every single dangerous thing. You cannot pack them in cotton, and lock them inside, with a scientific perfect temperature, with all kind of gizmos to make things perfect. You don't master things if you don't fail, and if you fail, you often hurt yourself. That's life. It can be extremely unfair, it can be hard. But it is how it is.

And yes, I have indeed lost love ones before they had a chance to experience how the adult life was. I was a tiny cm away from it myself - and I was just riding my bike to school...

[TecnoRacing]

 

These Mini's are built to last, are equipped with full roll cages as I have said and also have armour welded around the bodywork and front and rear, and also built into the underneath of the car to both protect the drivers and make the cars able to withstand a certain amount of punishment. but also to promote the use of contact to make progress, you do not have to move over though some do, you are encouraged to nudge, spin, battle.

 

 

This is pretty much the worst scenario though in low speed impacts against a solid structure - having a completely rigid welded outer 'cage' which doesn't absorb any energy.

There was a very similar fatal accident in the USA a couple years ago involving a 12 year old - a sub-50mph impact against a concrete wall with a car fitted with steel bumper bars.

 

I don't know the circumstances of this latest accident, but I'm guessing some very common sense (and inexpensive) safety solutions could have made all the difference, which is the real shame.

Edited by fer312t, 21 May 2015 - 07:58.

[DS27]

 

 

Anyway, you cannot keep the kids away from every single dangerous thing. You cannot pack them in cotton, and lock them inside, with a scientific perfect temperature, with all kind of gizmos to make things perfect.

 

 

Well, people are trying to do this - but what kind of life is that. Kids miss out on a fun and generally much healthier childhood while parents constantly fret.

 

I wonder how many serious accidents happened during my childhood from skate-boarding, swinging off trees in the woods, building karts and firing them down the steepest hill we could find. Probably a fair few, but I'm still glad I grew up when I did..

[Fatgadget]

..My childhood sweetheart lost her life after a road  accident in a car her dad just  bought for her 17th birthday.....To this day I'm still distraught and I'm sure her dad too.But does that  mean  youngsters should not be allowed anyway near cars?

[Guizotia]

Some really rather unsavoury comments from people on here who really should know better, makes you wonder what they are like in real life.

 

You can be killed doing anything these days, playing darts, football, swimming.  And blaming the parents is borderline inhumane, how on earth would you feel if they read what you had written, you callous individual. You know nothing of them or Keir. Yet you are prepared to do a "Madeline McCann" on them and say it is all their fault.

 

Some people stagger me they really do. I can only hope you were in shock when you wrote that.

 

I am not going to comment on this specific incident as I don't know the details.

 

But if we take a hypothetical 11-year old dying in a racing accident.

 

The question is, was he able to fully understand the risk he was putting himself in.  If not, then it is the parent's role (some people, including me, would argue) to only allow the child to get into what I call "recoverable mistakes", i.e. learning opportunities.

 

This is assuming it is not a freak accident and is actually related to the expected racing risks.

 

I could not be convinced that an 11-year old could fully understand and decide to take such a life-endangering risk.  I would argue that it is the government's role to ensure that parent's sufficiently protect their children from making such decisions.

 

But I don't expect everyone to hold this opinion, ultimately there is no right or wrong (I come from a Chan/Tao perspective) anywhere so we all make our own judgements.

[kraduk]

I am not going to comment on this specific incident as I don't know the details.

 

But if we take a hypothetical 11-year old dying in a racing accident.

 

The question is, was he able to fully understand the risk he was putting himself in.  If not, then it is the parent's role (some people, including me, would argue) to only allow the child to get into what I call "recoverable mistakes", i.e. learning opportunities.

 

This is assuming it is not a freak accident and is actually related to the expected racing risks.

 

I could not be convinced that an 11-year old could fully understand and decide to take such a life-endangering risk.  I would argue that it is the government's role to ensure that parent's sufficiently protect their children from making such decisions.

 

But I don't expect everyone to hold this opinion, ultimately there is no right or wrong (I come from a Chan/Tao perspective) anywhere so we all make our own judgements.

 

 

So you want an authoritarian government telling you every detail of what you can and cant do in your life? Think about the bigger picture you are painting.

[grackle]

I believe life ending injury injury is a concept that many children have at that age. Life changing injury... not so much. There are many that reach adulthood without learning to weigh up possible consequences. And I think that not permitting adequate risk-taking to be even considered/discussed is a large cause of that.

grack

[Guizotia]

So you want an authoritarian government telling you every detail of what you can and cant do in your life? Think about the bigger picture you are painting.

 

No, I am a Liberal meaning I believe everyone should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn't affect others significantly (or a large number of people insignificantly); this involves making subjective decisions so not everyone will agree. 

 

But a child has the right to make it to adulthood where they can make their own decisions.  It isn't right in my view to allow them to make "unrecoverable mistakes".

[Guizotia]

I believe life ending injury injury is a concept that many children have at that age. Life changing injury... not so much. There are many that reach adulthood without learning to weigh up possible consequences. And I think that not permitting adequate risk-taking to be even considered/discussed is a large cause of that.

grack

 

I completely agree.  That is why I believe it is a parent's role to prevent children making unrecoverable mistakes, but certainly not to prevent the making recoverable mistakes, as that is the only way you can learn and mature.

[Vitesse2]

I am not going to comment on this specific incident as I don't know the details.

 

But if we take a hypothetical 11-year old dying in a racing accident.

 

The question is, was he able to fully understand the risk he was putting himself in.  If not, then it is the parent's role (some people, including me, would argue) to only allow the child to get into what I call "recoverable mistakes", i.e. learning opportunities.

 

This is assuming it is not a freak accident and is actually related to the expected racing risks.

 

I could not be convinced that an 11-year old could fully understand and decide to take such a life-endangering risk.  I would argue that it is the government's role to ensure that parent's sufficiently protect their children from making such decisions.

 

But I don't expect everyone to hold this opinion, ultimately there is no right or wrong (I come from a Chan/Tao perspective) anywhere so we all make our own judgements.

Can I suggest you read posts 31, 41, 45 and 49 in this thread? Keir's family are experienced stock car racers, so I'd be absolutely certain that he was entirely aware of any possible consequences.

 

In due course, under Scottish law, there will be a Fatal Accident Inquiry to determine the cause of this. Until then, speculation like this serves no purpose.

[Clatter]

I am not going to comment on this specific incident as I don't know the details.

But if we take a hypothetical 11-year old dying in a racing accident.

The question is, was he able to fully understand the risk he was putting himself in. If not, then it is the parent's role (some people, including me, would argue) to only allow the child to get into what I call "recoverable mistakes", i.e. learning opportunities.

This is assuming it is not a freak accident and is actually related to the expected racing risks.

I could not be convinced that an 11-year old could fully understand and decide to take such a life-endangering risk. I would argue that it is the government's role to ensure that parent's sufficiently protect their children from making such decisions.

But I don't expect everyone to hold this opinion, ultimately there is no right or wrong (I come from a Chan/Tao perspective) anywhere so we all make our own judgements.

Do you have children of your own?

There are so many activities that children do that can, in the wrong circumstances, have serious or fatal consequences. Going swimming, riding a bike, using skates or a skateboard etc. etc. Do you really think we need government interference telling us about every single circumstance where someone could possibly hurt themselves. As a parent myself I have taken my kids karting on many occasions, you can explain the risks, but at some point you have to take the cotton wool wraps off and actually allow them to enjoy their childhood.

[Vitesse2]

Keir Millar was laid to rest today.

 

http://news.stv.tv/s...er-keir-millar/

[balmybaldwin]

I am not going to comment on this specific incident as I don't know the details.

 

But if we take a hypothetical 11-year old dying in a racing accident.

 

The question is, was he able to fully understand the risk he was putting himself in.  If not, then it is the parent's role (some people, including me, would argue) to only allow the child to get into what I call "recoverable mistakes", i.e. learning opportunities.

 

This is assuming it is not a freak accident and is actually related to the expected racing risks.

 

I could not be convinced that an 11-year old could fully understand and decide to take such a life-endangering risk.  I would argue that it is the government's role to ensure that parent's sufficiently protect their children from making such decisions.

 

But I don't expect everyone to hold this opinion, ultimately there is no right or wrong (I come from a Chan/Tao perspective) anywhere so we all make our own judgements.

 

So at what age do you think it's ok to let a child get out of bed? walk down the stairs? open the front door? cross a road? 

 

As for governments getting involved, do you really want to live in a country where the government regulates fun? 

 

Regardless of that. The friends and family of this poor Keir are clearly likely to be motorsport fans and readers of this board, and will most likely will have read this thread, to whom you owe an apology. This is neither the time nor the place for your comments or a few others on this thread. If you want to talk about age limiting motorsports, I'm sure you could start a new one.

 

For what its worth, I for one think they should be congratulated. Unlike lots of parents they let their child explore his limits rather being wrapped in cotton wool with nothing to look forward to but obesity

and ill health. Keir was probably more at risk on the drive to the circuit than actually racing. It's a terribly unlucky incident, that will be learned from and I'm sure if it is found that there is a safety issue it will be addressed.

 

As to his parents, family and friends, I'm very sorry for your loss.

[chunder27]

It is a difficult choice for any parent to make, to let them race something.

 

You see it every weekend in motocross, bike racing, karting.

 

I do think things might happen as a result of this, in that maybe a slightly higher age might be introduced, but Keir had driven a sort of oval racing kart before getting into Mini's so was actually quite an experienced little racer and would have known exacly what he was doing.

 

He was also a winner, so was clealy able to push the car, push himself and feel able to do so.

 

The government sadly will always try and regulate to prevent things like this, like they regulate about noise, nuisance and ASB. But they usually affect more than one person. This has only hugely affected the track and the lads family directly and I only hope draconian measures are not introduced.

 

It is the kind of accident I have always feared happening in our sport, and a lot of people truly do not understand, hence the rather misunderstood comments on here by a few. Our sport does not have the clout to deal with things of this kind, it could have immense ramifications in the UK aswell as Scotland.

Edited by chunder27, 22 May 2015 - 21:07.

[Rocket73]

The health and safety brigade are completely out of control imo. I don't know exactly what sort of world they are aiming for but I do know it's an extremely dull one. I also think that there are sinister consequences with neutering people's life experiences by banning and restricting everything in sight.

Personally I too applaud Keir's family for giving him this opportunity to race. It's an extremely noble thing to do to put his happiness ahead of your fears. This series has an excellent safety record, all the precautions appear to be in place and this was just a freak accident.

It's a fact of the REAL world that people die. Trying to over control it is playing god.

[bestF1]

 

The government sadly will always try and regulate to prevent things like this, ...

 

You think it's "sad" that the government will try and regulate to prevent deaths involving children? Wow.

 

RIP:

2010 Samantha Mouat, 15, New Zealand, ministock.

2012 Tyler Morr, 12, United States, stock cars

2015 Keir Millar, 11, UK, ministox

[fitjiffa]

Another child racer death. So sad. If this boy's parents had made different choices on his behalf he would be alive today.

My 9 year old son spent 48 hours in intensive care and a further 2 days on a standard ward just 2 weeks ago because he fell off his mountain bike while we were on a gentle ride in the woods near our house. We weren't doing anything difficult or dangerous, he just got unlucky and when he fell off, hit a small stone which was protruding from the ground. He was 5 mm from losing his left kidney. If he had landed 5 cm away from where he did land, he would have had a very small graze and thats it.

 

You can't wrap your kids in cotton wool. Life is dangerous and bad things happen, but you have to let your kids live, or we'll all sit indoors with the lights off because its too scary to do anything else. As soon as the doctors say he's fit enough, we'll be out on our bikes again. He's also really missing his main sport which is kickboxing. He competes in that and has had nothing worse than a bloody nose.

[Vitesse2]

You think it's "sad" that the government will try and regulate to prevent deaths involving children? Wow.

 

RIP:

2010 Samantha Mouat, 15, New Zealand, ministock.

2012 Tyler Morr, 12, United States, stock cars

2015 Keir Millar, 11, UK, ministox

And that is three fewer child deaths worldwide in six years in motor sport than on bicycles in the UK in 2013 alone. Plus 276 serious injuries.

 

http://www.rospa.com.../facts-figures/

 

They can also die falling off horses:

 

http://www.dailymail...ddle-event.html

 

Or playing American Football - three in one week:

 

http://www.theguardi...l-third-us-teen

[bestF1]

So kids of all ages should go BASE jumping? Because you can't wrap them in cotton?

 

People should just drive drunk, because crashes happen anyway?

 

You folks are just not getting it. It's all about the *amount* of risk. As I said, I'd like to see some hard data.

 

But answer this: if the sport is so safe, why is an ambulance waiting on the sidelines at all times?

 

And I would never let my child play American Football.

 

Sorry fitjiffa, to hear of your son's injury. I hope he makes a complete recovery.

[chunder27]

There are people who simply cannot understand why any parent would let thier child do anything remotely dangerous.

 

These are the same type of people that have irrational fears about paedophiles preying on their kids every move and are paranoid about not letting them out of their sight for a second, the kind that never let their kid walk to school, the same ones that literally walk around with them everywhere just in case they bang their head or graze a knee or do something that might injure them in some small way.

 

Yes all of these things can happen, but as parents you have a life too, the best kids I know are the ones who are allowed to roam free a little, do their own thing, find out the the hard way, they learn quicker, are more sociable and tougher. I find modern societies complete and utter obsession with child safety pathetic. No parent wants their child to get hurt, but behaving like this does them more harm than good. They are not learning, they can't learn EVERYTHING from you, you have to let them learn too.

 

You have to let them be, let them learn, and yes let them hurt themsleves if you are not watching or not aware coz you are doing something, you should not feel guilt although every parent does of course. Same as they will break things, get told off at school, throw stones at windows, throw snowballs at other kids. My mother was reported to social services when I was a baby because I used to love being rested on her feet and tossed into the air and caught again. Some busy body saw and reported her. I thank my mother with all my heart, for letting me dig holes, go to the woods on my own, ride a bike, build a go kart.

 

If we ever life in a society were kids are not encouraged to do things or try things, we truly are a lost species. And we are failing our own children. Common sense should prevail of course, but this has been going on for decades. I agree letting a child race a car round a track at 11 is extreme, but so is letting a kid race a motocross bike at teh same age, so is letting them go into the sea, so is putting them on rides you have no idea of how they are maintained. So is putting them in a car every day. It might be less risk.

 

Keir came from a racing family, he grew up with it. What would you rather he was? a fat little city kid who was great at CoD?  Or a great little lad who won races, was competitive, learned how to drive a car at 10 (think about  a second that for God's sake), made lots of friends and was on a road to a lifetime of fun.

 

What happened is truly tragic, those of us in his sport feel the loss. But so do those parents whose kids die horse riding, swimming, on pushbikes.

Edited by chunder27, 25 May 2015 - 20:54.

[Myrvold]

I was riding my bike to school when I was 14. It was the day after I got 2nd place in the National Festival of Youth kart-race, and I was just looking to get to school and brag. Finally, after 5 years of karting, I had gotten a very good result, that I could rightfully brag about. But t hat never happened.

 

I had never been injured while racing karts, but that morning, riding my bike to school, on a slightly blind corner I crashed with another cyclist, and I broke my skull, got a severe brain hemorrhage and had to re-learn how to speak. All that from casually riding my bike to school.

I kept racing karts, and rallycross later on, but the doctors didn't like it, at my family decided to listen to them, so it stopped my (possible) career. But I had never been injured while racing, actually, in 8 years of racing karts, and two years of rallycross, I only saw one injury. And my injury happened on the road to school.

 

While it's a good thing to take care of kids, you cannot tell them that every single thing is dangerous, and they shouldn't do it. Because, well, everything is dangerous, you can get seriously injured or killed doing anything in life. That's how it is. 

[bestF1]

 

While it's a good thing to take care of kids, you cannot tell them that every single thing is dangerous, and they shouldn't do it.

 

Nobody is suggesting that. What you can tell your kids is that some things are too dangerous, and they therefore shouldn't do them.

[Myrvold]

Nobody is suggesting that. What you can tell your kids is that some things are too dangerous, and they therefore shouldn't do them.

Like; Base Jumping, Racing in any form, Horse Riding, Swimming (cramps -> drowning), Amercian Football, actual football, cricket, baseball, tennis, orienteering, ski jumping, climbing in trees, riding bike to school, and I am sure there are many more things, both kids and adults die while doing on a regular to semi-regular basis.

[fitjiffa]

You can only remove all risk from life by doing absolutely nothing, and even then a plane might fall on your house, or a tree or other freak accident may occur. Some things that are fun also have an element of risk. If we want to take part in sports that have an element of danger, we do all we can to minimise the risks involved, while still doing the sport. i.e. my son is a kickboxer. People can get seriously hurt kickboxing. When he is fighting, he wears gloves, shin pads, groin guard, head guard, foot pads and gum shield. Therefore the risk has been reduced as much as possible, while still making contact. There are medical staff at the competitions, just in case. Again, reducing the risk created by waiting for medical care, if an emergency occurs. I really don't want my son to get hurt, and it scares me silly every time I watch him fight, but I would never stop him, nor would I make him fight. (i'll make the kids train).(My 7 year old daughter will start competitions soon, too) Yes, he could get hurt, but he could also get hurt doing something mundane. A friend of mine broke his ankle walking off a kerb to cross the road. Does that mean nobody should cross the road? Another friend of mine spent 15 years working as a steeplejack and never hurt himself, but got knocked off his motorbike on the way home from work one day and is now paralyzed from the chest down and in a wheelchair. He had minimised the risk by wearing leathers and a helmet, but you can't take all the risk away from riding a motorbike. Accidents happen. Sometimes people can walk away from really bad accidents with barely a scratch, whereas an innocuous looking crash can be fatal. Its just luck which way it goes. As long as you do what you can to minimise the risk, you should have as much fun as you can. 

Then you have to weigh up the benefits of the sports. My kids may get hurt doing kickboxing, but they are unlikely to get hurt by a bully, or in an altercation on the street. Because my son trains between 6 and 10 hours a week, he is really fit and healthy, so he'll probably live longer than if he didn't train. Although he was in intensive care with nearly losing a kidney and weeing blood because of his mountain bike accident 2 weeks ago, because he is fit and healthy, he is healing really well and the doctors reckon there should be no long term effects. He has a good group of friends outside school. If, when they are teenagers and they are going out as a group, I'm not going to worry about them getting picked on.

 

It is always sad for the friends and relatives, when someone dies, but life must go on. Life is a beautiful thing, and we should all do the things we love, even if they are risky. Otherwise, we may as well be dead already.