220 replies to this topic

[turssi]

What can be done? Well, it's too late to stop the leak as we can't go back in time, but to stop further leaks the responsable could be hung or sent to Guatanamo :-)

[V8 Fireworks]

 

7. What would be the capital costs to build up a specific WRC infrastructure in terms of rally engineers (different to F1) the shells, the global logistics (F1 centrally funded) etc.

 

 

It's a truck with some ladies and getleman...

 

I'm sure Force India could manage.

 

 

See the fan access    - F1 could learn a thing or more there 

 

Unlike F1, in WRC there is no "motorhome", there is no "BS"...

 

If it rains they get the tent out of the truck and put it up.  Simple.  I'm sure Force India can afford a tent!

 

Truck turns up on the side of the road, cars rolls out of the truck and they go testing or racing; they use the same shipping that any other GT and rally teams use to move their stuff for overseas races when required, it's no different.   

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 May 2015 - 01:24.

[V8 Fireworks]

For every ticket the other company sells, the state pays half of the ticket.  So I have to lower the prices of my tickets to stay competitive. I am slowly going bankrupt.

 

Bernie likes it that way.

 

Either the teams band together and start their own series without Bernie, or they follow Bernies wishes and get manipulated by Bernie......

[HP]

'It has always been like that' and 'this is how stuff is done'... Where have I heard that before? Something is wrong or not wrong. The longevity or occurrence worldwide doesn't absolve anyone about trying to solve the problem.

 

 

I seriously doubt that. I think the special payouts are deals between Ecclestone and each team separately. And then, again: does that absolve anyone about not trying to solve the problem?

Sometimes BE has done special deals to get an important team on board, I remember Ferrari, but also small teams. Small teams sometimes needed urgently cash. Hence they sign anything that helps them to survive. Ferrari at the other hand, besides their claim to historical importance, in one case they needed a cash injection so they signed early, or in other cases to get the other teams to sign, they where offered a sweeter deal which they took up obviously.

 

To me bottom line is that BE uses the divide and conquer approach to get what he wants. But when BE is gone, there probably won't be any difference, because teams cannot agree on many things. To get things changed, they need unanimous support from teams. Vicious circle it seems to be.

 

This mindset obviously is enhanced because F1 is supposed to be a competitive sport. From the point of those competing, it's the same with their business deals within the sport. What matters is to finish ahead of other teams. Competition is the operative word here. Cheating, in other sports doping is the natural outcome of it. So are business deals, even like the Monisha one. Other sports might not need to invest that much money in building a car, so their success is not so much directly related to how much money they get, hence they can agree for more equal sharing.

 

So who signs up to change this kind of mindset of FOM, FIA and team principals? You? No matter who does it, it will chance F1 into something different. And that is something that IMO needs to be addressed very careful. If it's done in a way that only concerns more equal money distribution, it might destroy F1 completely. I do hope people have not forgotten the CART and Indycar spat. Indy hasn't fully recovered from the fallout. E.g. split and divided fanbase, even less sponsorship, less TV coverage. Kudos to anyone having the guts to deal with this for F1, but be prepared to spend the same amount of time to undue what BE and the rest have done to the sport. BE is at this for ~50 years, more than an average persons career span.

[Fatgadget]

I never used to believe all those stories that Ferrari were/are treated differently to other teams....now..Im not so sure!.And the reason why Red Bull never got their knuckles rapped for flagrantly flexing their wings so to speak   

[Nemo1965]

Sometimes BE has done special deals to get an important team on board, I remember Ferrari, but also small teams. Small teams sometimes needed urgently cash. Hence they sign anything that helps them to survive. Ferrari at the other hand, besides their claim to historical importance, in one case they needed a cash injection so they signed early, or in other cases to get the other teams to sign, they where offered a sweeter deal which they took up obviously.

 

To me bottom line is that BE uses the divide and conquer approach to get what he wants. But when BE is gone, there probably won't be any difference, because teams cannot agree on many things. To get things changed, they need unanimous support from teams. Vicious circle it seems to be.

 

This mindset obviously is enhanced because F1 is supposed to be a competitive sport. From the point of those competing, it's the same with their business deals within the sport. What matters is to finish ahead of other teams. Competition is the operative word here. Cheating, in other sports doping is the natural outcome of it. So are business deals, even like the Monisha one. Other sports might not need to invest that much money in building a car, so their success is not so much directly related to how much money they get, hence they can agree for more equal sharing.

 

So who signs up to change this kind of mindset of FOM, FIA and team principals? You? No matter who does it, it will chance F1 into something different. And that is something that IMO needs to be addressed very careful. If it's done in a way that only concerns more equal money distribution, it might destroy F1 completely. I do hope people have not forgotten the CART and Indycar spat. Indy hasn't fully recovered from the fallout. E.g. split and divided fanbase, even less sponsorship, less TV coverage. Kudos to anyone having the guts to deal with this for F1, but be prepared to spend the same amount of time to undue what BE and the rest have done to the sport. BE is at this for ~50 years, more than an average persons career span.

 

Thank you. Finally (again, after some dapper attempts in the beginning of the thread) a post that really tries to analyse the problem instead of stating that the problem does not exist, shooting the messenger or state that the problem is perhaps there but that is the way of the world hey?

 

I would like to add on aside and it is that I really believe that Bernie of those fifty years perhaps 25 years has done GOOD for the sport. I really believe that until the mid-nineties he had the interest of F1 at heart (next to his wallet). He made the sport big but also helped the small teams survive. He sometimes even took decisions against his own interests, for example when (to Murray's anger) took the victories Brabham-fan-car out of contention to sooth the other teams.

You make a good point that a more honest division of the money is not a 'solve-all'. I never thought it was, but I posted the graphic with the division because it is the ulcer of the problem underneath: a management structure of F1 that is totally wrong and will destroy F1 in the end, IMHO. I know the hate of the FIA is rather big on Fora like these (no Asp, I have not made a statistical analyses of that) but I honestly believe that the FIA alone would organise a much better premier-class race-class than the FOM/CVC/Ecclestone-daughter-maffia-club.

Edited by Nemo1965, 15 May 2015 - 07:32.

[V8 Fireworks]

"the FIA alone would organise a much better premier-class race-class than the FOM/CVC/Ecclestone-daughter-maffia-club."

 

They are free to do so RIGHT NOW.

 

I believe FIA can take World Drivers Championship away from Formula 1 and give it to another class if they wish.          

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 May 2015 - 07:57.

[Nemo1965]

"the FIA alone would organise a much better premier-class race-class than the FOM/CVC/Ecclestone-daughter-maffia-club."

 

They are free to do so RIGHT NOW.

 

I believe FIA can take World Drivers Championship away from Formula 1 and give it to another class if they wish.          

 

Oh, actually I believe it will happen. Or kind of hope it will happen. I don't know. Perhaps I am hoping against better judgement that F1 can be saved...

[Paco]

Well they both have the same engine so I don't see how that logic works, but whatever.
For you to say they have shown little regard in achieving targets, you must know of the target and how/why it was missed. Do you have any examples?

Like Mercedes and Ferrari, the engine pu manufacturer does seem to have an advantage in getting the most out of the units. Reasoniing would be only guesses but I feel they have a much better understanding of the software profiling on how to get the most traction out the energy recovery system.. Either way.. It's fact that each of the pu manufactures are ahead of their customer teams.. So it only stands to reason at this point that Redbull even with the close relation would be slower or more problematic. Honda being a sole supplier at this point, negates anything regarding McLaren internal issues vs if Honda was a full works team. So if you can't see that logic.. Guess you are not paying witness to what's going on track. This is the very reasoning why McLaren dropped their engine contract and partnered with Honda... Cause they felt they could never best MGP using a Mercedes pu. Plus, they and Honda want to rekindle the magical season of yester year.. So why build their own internally when they have a F1 historical reference to partner with Honda.

As for results of backmarkers.. Spending 10s of millions and not achieving a single point.. Points where redone just to accommodate them .. If it were still 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1.. None of the back markers would even be hitting a point on merit except for accidents out front or lack of reliability... Even now with the starting 20 point system, it's almost luck that gets them a point and not out right pace.. So if your telling me, their target is just to lap, get lapped 2-3 and be ok with that after spending 50-100-200million dollars over a season or two or three.. Then they truly don't deserve a single dollar from the bonus payout if that's their goal. Even now in the era of 3 pus and 2 that nearly even they still can get anywhere near the 3 front rows consistently.

So really believe that's there target.. It doesn't take much to believe that there target is mid pack, top 10 qualifying and getting points at least every other race if not very race and not being lapped, let alone 2x or 3x a race. I'm sure their sponsors would like to be seen in the 3rd part of qualifying a few times a year and on tv during the race more.

So if the backmarkers want to prove to f1 they are serious and want a piece, why don't they organize themselves, get in touch with Craig polluck and PURE and develop a program to bring forth a PU all to themselves and see if they can mount a challenge to the establishment. Then if I were Bernie and Co. I would be willing to help them mitigate that risk by giving them a piece. See, there are a tonne of options outside the small box in which they operate.. McLaren took a risk, now we are seeig how expensive and dearly they are taking it in the chin for it .. Exactly why bonus payouts are made to them. Now.. Small teams.. Get your act together and do something to merit a bonus.

Edited by Paco, 15 May 2015 - 13:46.

[Tapz63]

Like Mercedes and Ferrari, the engine pu manufacturer does seem to have an advantage...

So how does that translate to Toro Rosso beating Red Bull?

[pdac]

Bernie likes it that way.

 

Either the teams band together and start their own series without Bernie, or they follow Bernies wishes and get manipulated by Bernie......

 

Or the teams band together and just tell Bernie "this is how it's going to be - either with or without you". But that requires the teams banding together - good luck with that!

 

Improvement will only come when several teams are prepared to drop out and there is no-one to replace them. Then Bernie has the choice of adjusting the payment scheme or continuing with a series with only 4 or 5 teams. Even then it's very likely he'd go with the latter. So, thinking about it more, you may be right.

[Paco]

So how does that translate to Toro Rosso beating Red Bull?

Once again, seriously. 1 off races and a 1 off season is hardly a legacy or major contributor to f1 and toro wouldn't exist without Redbull. Have you not being ready most of the posts in this thread. You are validating rather then proving an alternative viewpoint of why a tiered system is good vs. bad.

Edited by Paco, 15 May 2015 - 16:59.

[KingTiger]

Once again, Red Bull and Ferrari didn't get those bonuses because of the great job they did marketing the series, far from it. It was because they broke ranks from FOTA and quickly signed deals with Bernie to get their hands on the largest part of the pie. Selfish and egotistical 

 

Or the teams band together and just tell Bernie "this is how it's going to be - either with or without you". But that requires the teams banding together - good luck with that!

 

Improvement will only come when several teams are prepared to drop out and there is no-one to replace them. Then Bernie has the choice of adjusting the payment scheme or continuing with a series with only 4 or 5 teams. Even then it's very likely he'd go with the latter. So, thinking about it more, you may be right.

 

That's what was happening until a few bad apples spoiled the entire batch. 

[Fatgadget]

I really can't get my head around this!......And Red Bull gets more than Williams and McLaren because?

[tmekt]

Once again, Red Bull and Ferrari didn't get those bonuses because of the great job they did marketing the series, far from it. It was because they broke ranks from FOTA and quickly signed deals with Bernie to get their hands on the largest part of the pie. Selfish and egotistical 

That's game theory in the works for you 

[Paco]

I really can't get my head around this!......And Red Bull gets more than Williams and McLaren because?

They pour money in, they run 2 teams and f1 stands more to lose if they leave. Williams and mclaren aren't going anywhere.

Edited by Paco, 15 May 2015 - 19:27.

[f1RacingForever]

Nothing can be done. Smaller teams will just have to make themselves more valuable to score better deals. That's business.

[pdac]

I really can't get my head around this!......And Red Bull gets more than Williams and McLaren because?

 

Because when FOTA were threatening BE's control, Red Bull and Ferrari were there to be bought off first. So they got the lions share.

[Shambolic]

They pour money in, they run 2 teams and f1 stands more to lose if they leave. Williams and mclaren aren't going anywhere.

 

And it's not because they were pretty much the first to take Bernie's "incentive" to break ranks and effectively nullify FOTA then?

[Rasputin]

What can be done? If this guy just keeps all the money for himsef, problem will be solved once and for all, isn't it?

 

[Fatgadget]

They pour money in, they run 2 teams and f1 stands more to lose if they leave. Williams and mclaren aren't going anywhere.

Thanks for humouring me!