118 replies to this topic

[ANF]

 

Fast Forward three years (2004):

Pole position Driver Michael Schumacher Ferrari Time 1:24.408 Fastest lap Driver Michael Schumacher Ferrari Time 1:24.125 on lap 29

 

I think the 2004 cars were too fast. But sure, let's keep fast-forwarding:

The fastest lap average speed in 2001 was 216.4 km/h
The fastest lap average speed in 2004 was 226.9 km/h
Average gain per year was 3.506 km/h
So the fastest lap average speed in 2017 should be 272.5 km/h

[63Corvette]

I would like to offer a slightly different perspective. I drive a race car. (No not a F1 or formula car). From my perspective refueling a hot race car is very dangerous, both to the driver (think Jos Verstappen) and to the refueling crewman................and probably others. I really don't care about the spectators or what they want. I just don't want the additional risk of fire.

[superden]

Where is the ...

'Don't care, as it won't fix the problems with overtaking and close racing and there are more immediate issues to deal with that BE wants to gloss over with a nice quick 'business win' and a bit of prestidigitation'

... option?

[garagetinkerer]

I would like to offer a slightly different perspective. I drive a race car. (No not a F1 or formula car). From my perspective refueling a hot race car is very dangerous, both to the driver (think Jos Verstappen) and to the refueling crewman................and probably others. I really don't care about the spectators or what they want. I just don't want the additional risk of fire.

Would you share your views on tyres bouncing about in the pit-lane? Should they ban tyre changes as well, as i think more teams have gotten tyres wrong than have been problems with refuelling? Erm, some have also had electrocutions with KERS? So now that they have bigger batteries, should they ban it too? I'm just asking for your views in balance on other things where there have been problems, given your background. In my humble opinion, when something goes wrong, all of them involve reasonable to considerable danger.

[Tapz63]

I think the 2004 cars were too fast. But sure, let's keep fast-forwarding:

The fastest lap average speed in 2001 was 216.4 km/h
The fastest lap average speed in 2004 was 226.9 km/h
Average gain per year was 3.506 km/h
So the fastest lap average speed in 2017 should be 272.5 km/h

If we can do it safely at those speeds then yes please.

[SenorSjon]

I would like to offer a slightly different perspective. I drive a race car. (No not a F1 or formula car). From my perspective refueling a hot race car is very dangerous, both to the driver (think Jos Verstappen) and to the refueling crewman................and probably others. I really don't care about the spectators or what they want. I just don't want the additional risk of fire.

 

We've had more bouncing tires than pitfires.

[ViMaMo]

Cars who want to refuel should use only the hard tyre. Cars that start with full tanks can use any compound. Sounds interesting?

[SenorSjon]

No

 

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. The rulebook should be halved as it is. The rules should be there to make a fast car and promote racing. Not be a scientific formule of what you can and cannot do when the track exceeds 20 Celcius or when it rains in Ethiopia.

[Kobasmashi]

5 quality, exiting and meaningful overtakes a race is better for me that 80 breeze pasts between cars on different strategies - this graph is really meaningless to me. 

 

I fully agree with you, but what about 2010, which is why I posted that graph as 2010 didn't have DRS blow-bys or big tyre disparities? The 22 overtakes per dry race in 2010 is almost double the refueling average of 12.81. The five seasons prior to the refueling ban had only 11 overtakes per race in the dry, which is pretty damn poor don't you think?

[SenorSjon]

Yes, overtaking Caterhams is a challenge. Don't forget the dual compound rule that forced people on alternating strategies which sometimes requires overtaking when you are on the faster tire last (=overtakes), but lost positions in the beginning (=overtakes). Net result is pretty the same. Later those strategies converged more.

 

But in light of the Monaco GP. Almost every overtake attempt was investigated and/or penalized. That started way back in the noughties, so perhaps that is a bigger problem than refuelling. Why bother overtaking if you get investigated at almost every attempt?

[ViMaMo]

No

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. The rulebook should be halved as it is. The rules should be there to make a fast car and promote racing. Not be a scientific formule of what you can and cannot do when the track exceeds 20 Celcius or when it rains in Ethiopia.

KISS doesn't automatically mean better. Racing is and was complex, not meant to be simple for stupids ;)

[scheivlak]

No

 

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. 

OK, no refuelling then.

[maximilian]

To me, the purest form of racing is when "you come to the pits, you lose" as it used to be in the days before ridiculous 3-second pit stops.  Want cost savings?  Get rid of pit stops altogether.  Car change notwithstanding, one of the things I like about Formula E is that there is none of this tire strategy nonsense going on (although they still have the annoying "save energy" blablabla).  Just racing.  Refuelling makes it even worse. It adds absolutely nothing.  I say get rid of pitstops altogether (as in, if you need to change tires, it should take long enough to cease being a strategic option, as it used to be).

[Fastcake]

I fully agree with you, but what about 2010, which is why I posted that graph as 2010 didn't have DRS blow-bys or big tyre disparities? The 22 overtakes per dry race in 2010 is almost double the refueling average of 12.81. The five seasons prior to the refueling ban had only 11 overtakes per race in the dry, which is pretty damn poor don't you think?

Or all those years pre-1994 which saw plenty of overtaking, sometimes with no pit strategies at all.

[HP]

if they bring back refuelling they hopefully ditch DRS.

 

Myself I see positives with or without refuelling, so I didn't vote.

 

The ideal option for me is bring drivers into F1 that can overtake like Ricc. Problem solved.

[HP]

Or all those years pre-1994 which saw plenty of overtaking, sometimes with no pit strategies at all.

Well back then cars were not that aero dependent.

 

Which brings up a point. We haven't seen cars with refuelling and in comparison with the decade gone, much less downforce.

[GTRacer]

We've had more bouncing tires than pitfires.

Probably not actually as there were a lot more fires than the few big headline one's (The 3-4 small ones during the 2008 Hungarian Gp for instance) & there was a dozen which took place in testing & a few that took place at the team factories during rig checks.

 

You also need to factor in the occasions where there was no fire but mechanics got dragged down as the cars left with the fuel hose still attached.

 

 

I would also suggest that drivers had there race ruined far more often due to a sticking fuel nozzle or faulty rig than has been the case with tyre changes alone.

Edited by GTRacer, 27 May 2015 - 13:02.

[pacificquay]

It shouldn't come back, but thankfully it won't.

[SenorSjon]

Probably not actually as there were a lot more fires than the few big headline one's (The 3-4 small ones during the 2008 Hungarian Gp for instance) & there was a dozen which took place in testing & a few that took place at the team factories during rig checks.

 

You also need to factor in the occasions where there was no fire but mechanics got dragged down as the cars left with the fuel hose still attached.

 

 

I would also suggest that drivers had there race ruined far more often due to a sticking fuel nozzle or faulty rig than has been the case with tyre changes alone.

 

In 2012 the Williams pits caught fire. Accidents happen unfortunately.