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Steward Inconsistency ... Why No Traveling Stewards? [merged]


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#1 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:46

I'm still scratching my head over the penalty for Alonso (didn't affect his position on track as he came back out in the same spot then retired) and non-penalty on Ricciardo for a much worse version of the same move. Alonso was fully alongside, maybe even slightly ahead, and lost the rear under braking, sliding out into Hulk. Sucks for Hulk, but a racing incident imho. RIC just made a late dive down the inside, never got alongside, and Kimi turned in normally, resulting in front-to-rear wheel contact. Kimi had no obligation to give RIC room as Dan barely got a nose in there, but I wonder if that's the stewards' rationale for no penalty ... that Kimi should have given room? If so, that's incorrect imho.

 

Maybe I'm just missing it and somebody can explain it to me. But imho, even ignoring this race, it's an ongoing problem ... Yet another in a long string of inconsistency by the stewards imho. I just don't know why we can't have full time traveling race stewards in F1. Ridiculous.

 



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#2 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:51

not inconsistent at all, Alonso lost the back end clattered into Hulk and ended his race, Dan got squeezed by Kimi tagged wheels but both continued, so it's simple , one lost control and crashed the other two banged wheels, so Alonso go a penalty!



#3 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:52

I disagree with all of that. But like I said above, even disregarding this race, I think we can all agree the stewards have been woefully inconsistent over the last several years.


Edited by AustinF1, 24 May 2015 - 18:54.


#4 KingTiger

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:53

Kimi lost control before the Ricciardo contact.
Alonso used the Hulk as a brake, punted him off the track, and ruined his race.

#5 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:54

In what way?

 

Alonso went in too hot and caused a car to retire, , the other two binged wheels, where's the problem?



#6 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:55

Kimi lost control before the Ricciardo contact.
Alonso used the Hulk as a brake, punted him off the track, and ruined his race.

He did? I haven't re-watched it yet, but it looked to me like he just turned in normally, got hit, then lost it.



#7 FrontWing

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:55

Consistency will never happen because these incidents can be interpreted in so many different ways. You only have to look at the polar opposite opinions on different incidents on these forums to realize that their decisions will never 100% please everyone. 



#8 Gareth

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:55

Hulkenberg continued too ...  I think the penalties should depend on the action, not on the consequence.  How badly the contact affects one driver vs another shouldn't be a factor.

 

IMO the Alonso penalty was on the harsh end of the scale but I agreed with it.  Ricciardo was a bit worse, so I'd have given a penalty to him too (although it would also have been towards the harsh end).  I could have agreed with neither getting one or both getting one (with a preference for the latter), but Ricciardo getting away with it whilst Alonso didn't does not make sense to me.



#9 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:58

In what way?

 

Alonso went in too hot and caused a car to retire, , the other two binged wheels, where's the problem?

They were side by side and he lost the rear under braking. It happens. It wasn't a banzai move. 

 

The other two "banged wheels" resulting in one losing control and the other overtaking him when he could not have had they not banged wheels. RIC clearly gained an advantage from the contact. I could live with the ALO penalty if they had been consistent and penalized the RIC collision. The inconsistency is what I have a problem with, not the ALO penalty. 



#10 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:59

Difference was Hulks race was ended by that collision, Alonso lost control diving into a gap despite Hulk giving him room, it was an error by Alonso so he got the penalty!



#11 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:59

Hulkenberg continued too ...  I think the penalties should depend on the action, not on the consequence.  How badly the contact affects one driver vs another shouldn't be a factor.

 

IMO the Alonso penalty was on the harsh end of the scale but I agreed with it.  Ricciardo was a bit worse, so I'd have given a penalty to him too (although it would also have been towards the harsh end).  I could have agreed with neither getting one or both getting one (with a preference for the latter), but Ricciardo getting away with it whilst Alonso didn't does not make sense to me.

Exactly. All of this. If ALO's was worth a penalty, then so was RIC's. If RIC's wasn't, then neither was ALO's.



#12 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:00

Difference was Hulks race was ended by that collision, Alonso lost control diving into a gap despite Hulk giving him room, it was an error by Alonso so he got the penalty!

You're ignoring the advantage RIC gained by causing the contact there. 



#13 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:01

Kimi and Dan was just a bit of a tame version of Gilles and Rene. No harm no foul.



#14 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:02

Consistency will never happen because these incidents can be interpreted in so many different ways. You only have to look at the polar opposite opinions on different incidents on these forums to realize that their decisions will never 100% please everyone. 

Different opinions ... among different people. That's exactly the problem. Let the same people make the rulings week in and week out, and you have a much better chance at reasonable consistency, which, as any athlete will tell you, is the most important thing you seek from officials.



#15 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:02

Well the stewards don't agree, and I agree with the stewards, if you lose control and punt a car off you should get a penalty!



#16 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:04

Well the stewards don't agree, and I agree with the stewards, if you lose control and punt a car off you should get a penalty!

Well, RIC punted Kimi off, so....he deserved a penalty too if they were going to penalize Alonso. Just like I said. Not a big one, necessarily though. A five-second penalty would have lost him one position at worst, right? Haven't looked at the finishing times yet. That would be about the same as giving the spot back to Kimi.


Edited by AustinF1, 25 May 2015 - 14:06.


#17 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:06

except he didn't punt him off, Kimi ran wide when they tagged wheels but he also had to accept responsibility as he squeezed Dan unlike Hulk who left room but was still hit!



#18 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:11

except he didn't punt him off, Kimi ran wide when they tagged wheels but he also had to accept responsibility as he squeezed Dan unlike Hulk who left room but was still hit!

You're ignoring a lot here. That corner was Kimi's. RIC barely had a nose in there. He was nowhere near far enough alongside to force Kimi to leave him room. Kimi probably couldn't even see him and had a corner to worry about. He turned in, RIC was there, very late, their wheels touched, and Kimi was forced off, losing the position as a direct result.

 

This isn't NASCAR, man. That deserved a penalty.


Edited by AustinF1, 24 May 2015 - 19:12.


#19 MikePost

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:12

you do comprehend Alonso's error put Hulk in the wall, that's what he got a penalty for?



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#20 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:15

Different opinions ... among different people. That's exactly the problem. Let the same people make the rulings week in and week out, and you have a much better chance at reasonable consistency, which, as any athlete will tell you, is the most important thing you seek from officials.

 

But if you have the same people then you can have problems of bias. At least if you rotate the stewards any inherent biases should cancel out on average.



#21 Gareth

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:17

you do comprehend Alonso's error put Hulk in the wall, that's what he got a penalty for?

If Kimi's contact with Ricciardo had put Kimi in the wall, would you be arguing for a penalty for Ricciardo?



#22 Atreiu

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:17

Same thing to me, two guys fighting for space in a very tight corner with very late braking involved.

 

The inconsistency is clear.



#23 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:18

 

But if you have the same people then you can have problems of bias. At least if you rotate the stewards any inherent biases should cancel out on average.

 

 

 Sure, that's a potential problem. Nothing's perfect, but the way F1 does it lends no chance at all for consistency, which is the one thing the drivers need the most. They need to at least have some idea from one race to the next if a move will get them penalized or not.


Edited by AustinF1, 25 May 2015 - 14:07.


#24 SophieB

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:18

Different opinions ... among different people. That's exactly the problem. Let the same people make the rulings week in and week out, and you have a much better chance at reasonable consistency, which, as any athlete will tell you, is the most important thing you seek from officials.

 

but aren't you annoyed here because the same set of people made what you saw as inconsistent decisions, though? 



#25 Gareth

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:19

Sure, that's a potential problem. Nothing's perfect, but the way F1 does it lends no chance at all for consistency, which is the one things the drivers need the most. They need to at least have some idea from one race to the next if a move will get them penalized or not.

 

I'm not sure having the same stewards would solve the issue, though, Austin.  They didn't change them mid-race today!

 

EDIT: dammit, Sophie beats me  :lol:



#26 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:19

you do comprehend Alonso's error put Hulk in the wall, that's what he got a penalty for?

Penalize the behavior, not the result. If someone does something horrendous on the track that results in no severe consequence, they still need to be penalized. 



#27 garoidb

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:19

Did Kimi make a late move to close the door? I don't have a recording to look at, but that was my first impression from seeing Ricciardo's onboard.



#28 snakestone

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:20

Hulkenberg, whose front wing was damaged when he hit the barriers in the incident, said he did not think Alonso should have been penalised.
"For me, it's racing," the German said. "Obviously it kind of ruined my race but he didn't do it on purpose. That's just the dynamics of first-lap fighting, especially in Monaco when things are tight."

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/32870146



#29 Gareth

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:21

Did Kimi make a late move to close the door? I don't have a recording to look at, but that was my first impression from seeing Ricciardo's onboard.

No, he was taking the normal racing line throughout.

 

Ricciardo's move was too late.  He needed his nose further up the inside, IMO, to be entitled to a car's width of room.



#30 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:21

but aren't you annoyed here because the same set of people made what you saw as inconsistent decisions, though? 

Yep. I just think that with a properly schooled and reviewed group of professional race stewards, a la the NFL and MLB, we'd have a much better chance at consistency, which is what's needed most. Major sports leagues have strict quality control practices in place for their officials.Every official is reviewed and ranked. Not F1 though.


Edited by AustinF1, 24 May 2015 - 19:22.


#31 KingTiger

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 19:50

The FIA, like the other federation that starts with an F, is corrupt to the core, so having consistent and transparent officiating isn't something they strive for.

He did? I haven't re-watched it yet, but it looked to me like he just turned in normally, got hit, then lost it.


To me it looked like he had big oversteer then tagged Ricciardo when he corrected it.

#32 Jerem

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:00

There's one travelling steward, it's Race Director CW, and I wouldn't say he's much better than the other stewards.

But yes it's obvious that stewarding is very inconsistent even within the same race.



#33 SophieB

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:03

Well, Kimi seem to agree with you about inconsistency anyway, AustinF1:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119152

 

"It's not very clear what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do because someone can get a penalty for something and another cannot," complained Raikkonen, who finished sixth, behind Ricciardo.

"It usually is a penalty for these kind of things and this time not.

"There's no certain way of what is allowed and what is not so in my view it was pretty obvious but the stewards think differently."

 



#34 AustinF1

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:07

Well, Kimi seem to agree with you about inconsistency anyway, AustinF1:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119152

Yep. Hadn't seen that. Thanks. But yeah, quotes like this are something we see after almost every race. The guys don;t really know what the limits are, so it's kinda hard to know when they're crossing them.



#35 Wirra

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:22

Well, Kimi seem to agree with you

Surprise, surprise...

 

Kimi didn't mention that he was out of shape on the run into that corner, enticing Dan to try to capitalise on the error


Edited by Wirra, 24 May 2015 - 20:24.


#36 Kulturen

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:23

Where the hell did you see Kimi being "out of shape" going in to that corner?



#37 RubalSher

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:24

Steward inconsistency is nothing new and I am all for a permanent set of stewards laying down the law consistently. I sometimes think the reason they prefer stewards to be inconsistent is to spice up the show, and manage it WWE style.



#38 Watkins74

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 20:38

If you had one set of Stewards you would have certain fan groups claiming the stewards don't like their driver.

 

I like the rotating system.



#39 redraven9

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:12

In my view they were sorta equal. Alonso was right beside Hulk, so he had the turn, but the rear went off. It was an error, but not an intentional action to ruin Hulk's race.

Dan was a lot behind, but Kimi went too close to him. If you watch the replays, the cars following Dan and Kimi turned in the line from right beside the wall, while Kimi was in the middle.

 

It's very difficult to overtake in Monaco, so they shouldn't hand out penalties at every overtaking attempt. 
 



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#40 redreni

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:27

Hulkenberg continued too ...  I think the penalties should depend on the action, not on the consequence.  How badly the contact affects one driver vs another shouldn't be a factor.

 

IMO the Alonso penalty was on the harsh end of the scale but I agreed with it.  Ricciardo was a bit worse, so I'd have given a penalty to him too (although it would also have been towards the harsh end).  I could have agreed with neither getting one or both getting one (with a preference for the latter), but Ricciardo getting away with it whilst Alonso didn't does not make sense to me.

 

I agree. But you were wise not to try to make this point in the thread pertaining to the incident at Spa last year...

 

All I would say is if you make a pass by hitting somebody, that does offend against a sense of natural justice, It's more prevalent in touring cars and such like, where you can simply nurf the car ahead to aid your own deceleration and to help the other guy off the track, or at least onto the marbles, in order to get past. The better championships, like Aussie V8s, take a dim view, and if I were a steward today I'd have thought about penalising Ricciardo.

 

I should say, though, there would have been absolutely no point at all in giving the standard penalty to Ricciardo for this, because he would been laughing all the way from the stewards' room to the hotel. As is usually the case, the penalty would have had no meaningful impact on the classification, because if a penalty had been announced, or if the matter had remained under investigation on the last lap, Red Bull would not have asked Ricciardo to slow down and let Kvyat by.

 

As such, by having risible penalties, the FIA has found a clever way of making this kind of thread essentially redundant. What does it matter when the penalties don't mean anything anyway?



#41 f1RacingForever

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:30

Why do we always need to assign blame in a collision? This is a really selfish attitude that discourages good hard racing in the end. As the steward have gotten stricter, the number of incidents hasn't gone down has it? We need to get away from this blame culture. I wouldn't have given either penalties. When you ask drivers to race is such close proximity to one another around a street circuit, you have to expect more contact.



#42 balmybaldwin

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:38

Verstapen's penalty seems way over the top.  That lotus carried on with out an issue, but 5 place grid drop seems a huge penalty for someone who has crashed out.

 

More so when Grosjean seemed to brake exceptionally early for the corner.



#43 Kulturen

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:41

I think some people are looking at it the wrong way. Ricciardo didn't need some big penalty because he did something horrible or dangerous. He needed a pentalty because he gained a position via bumping the car in front Nascar style.

 

Hell, there wasn't even need for a penalty, he just needed to be told to give the position back.

 

It becomes especially ridiculous in light of Alonso's penalty. At least Alonso's contact was while executing an overtake and was in the first lap mayhem as well. Raikkonen may not have gotten damaged but Ricciardo gained a position.



#44 Kulturen

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:43

Verstapen's penalty seems way over the top.  That lotus carried on with out an issue, but 5 place grid drop seems a huge penalty for someone who has crashed out.

 

More so when Grosjean seemed to brake exceptionally early for the corner.

 

It happens but it has to be said, it was quite a dangerous situation. Looking at the replays I was thinking "imagine if the car would have launched up high". It would have flew over the barriers and into the personel there and probably killed Verstapen as well.



#45 Dolph

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:44

Verstapen's penalty seems way over the top.  That lotus carried on with out an issue, but 5 place grid drop seems a huge penalty for someone who has crashed out.

 

More so when Grosjean seemed to brake exceptionally early for the corner.

 

That Lotus lost the 10th position leaving them with no points. Finishing 12th is the same as retiring as both = 0 points.

 

Grosjean seemed to break exceptionally early to me as well, but that was from the in car perspective of Verstappen. That is also exactly the same view you get when the car behind leaves their braking way too late, which seems to be tha case here.



#46 P123

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:49

Without knowing the stewards actions in advance you would pick the Danny Ric move of the two as the most likely to receive a penalty. He hit front wheel to rear wheel, and the success of his move was down to nerfing Raikkonen out of the way. Alonso's move was more side by side, and wasn't created by or successful because of the contact. You do have to wonder that the stewards are too easily led by the outcome of incidents, rather than the incidents themselves.

#47 FirstWatt

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:50

Agree with several things here:

 

1. Penalty has NOT to be given based on consequences, i.e. whether Hulk crashed or Ric gained a Position.

2. First lap is always special, with cars alongside. Drivers know it, and Stewards generally too. How many penalties should have been awarded in first laps by applying same strict rules as later in the race? They almost never gave a Penalty in the first lap....

3. Loosing the rear when being alongside and pushing the other out is almost always a racing incident (remember Kimi vs. Grosjean at Kimis Pit Exit in Hungary AFAIR? All were applauding...in Monaco, Grosjean would have landed in the barierrs...and Kimi didn't even lose the car)

4.... diving into a Corner and having the front wheels as high as the rear wheels of the competitor before hitting him is rather not a racing accident....

And again, it's not the outcome, it's the move that has to be judged!


Edited by FirstWatt, 24 May 2015 - 21:52.


#48 Fastcake

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:50

There's one travelling steward, it's Race Director CW, and I wouldn't say he's much better than the other stewards.

But yes it's obvious that stewarding is very inconsistent even within the same race.

 

Charlie Whiting is not a steward.

 

If you had one set of Stewards you would have certain fan groups claiming the stewards don't like their driver.

 

I like the rotating system.

 

I don't mind that they regularly rotate, but I would like a bit more professionalism. Some of them are just motorclub blazers out for a jolly.



#49 krea

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:52

Hülkenberg was driving his normal line and was pushed out of the track by Alonso who lost the control of the car.

 

 

Ricciardo and Räikkönen were driving both aggresive lines which lead to a short contact. Compare Kimi's line with the cars ahead of him. 

 


Edited by krea, 24 May 2015 - 21:54.


#50 ionutz2oo0

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 21:56

not inconsistent at all, Alonso lost the back end clattered into Hulk and ended his race, Dan got squeezed by Kimi tagged wheels but both continued, so it's simple , one lost control and crashed the other two banged wheels, so Alonso go a penalty!

it's not the consequence, it's the damn action itself why is it so hard to understand???

 

Alonso was penalised for a move in the first lap when there was general chaos, especially at Mirabeau where they go 3 aside in the corner more or less and he was alongside Hulkenberg. 

 

Then, at the end of the race, Raikkonen stays a bit more on the inside to defend from Ricciardo, and Ricciardo gives him a push. He was not alongside, not on the inside of the corner, he was in no place to overtake, I believe he wouldn't have been able to make the corner from that position. Yet, he did overtake by giving Raikkonen a push. Nascar style, Sportscar style, call it whatever you like it. It is not acceptable in open wheel cars. 

 

After the race we find out that Verstappen got a penalty for crashing. Yes, he touched Grosjean who braked early but Grosjean continued the race, no damage done. 

 

You can punish a driver really hard for crashing without taking anyone out but you can't award a damn 5 seconds penalty or 10 seconds penalty to a driver who pushes another? 

 

Yes I am a Raikkonen fan, but you can't use double standards. Grosjean shouldn't have gotten a penalty, neither should've Alonso in my opinion. However, when you penalise Alonso for something similar, you can't let the next guy push another car with no consequences. 

 

And as someone say, it shouldn't even have to come to a penalty, he should've just slowed down a let Raikkonen back in front and it would've been fair. 


Edited by ionutz2oo0, 24 May 2015 - 21:56.