90 replies to this topic

[daydream]

The anti corruption agency should really look hard into this matter. This is getting too much.

Imagine this, a Managing Director of a company awards a huge contract to someone. And the guy who got the contract happens to be the Managing Director's friend, and thats the only reason he got the contract. And the guy awarded of the contract underperform badly. There is surely some form of corruption going on to suckle the company's money.

The same thing happen in BAR. Craig Pollock and JV are good friends. So Craig Pollock convinced BAT that this is the guy to do the job and the amount of money required to get the job done .i.e JV's huge salary. JV is really underperforming. Why don't someone from BAR look seriously into this matter and lodge a report to the anti corruption agency? They can tape the phone conversation between JV and Craig Pollock to get evidence of corruption.

Hope the BAR lawyers are reading this stuff!!!!!

[Witt]

Wait til Jayway gets a load of this!

[BuzzingHornet]

sorry but thats bollox
JV is the 1997 world champ and took a big career risk to leave Williams. Look where they are now, look where he is...

So he is having a rubbish season, BFD its mostly not his fault.

[Lexiz]

As I posted in another topic (BAT for sale, JV out of a job?) I hold nothing but admiration for Craig Pollock. For a man with no formal business training, I for one think it is amazing that he could convince so many people (including BAT) to back BAR and get a team off the ground. I think he is very intelligent and wouldn't jeopardize his or Jacques career by doing something so stupid.

I do however think that the sum Jacques is receiving is ridiculous, but neccessary if that is what it takes to get an ex WDC in your developing team. I think that BAR still has a lot to learn about the politics and business behind F1 before they will ever succeed.

Craig Pollock is no con-man, simply a normal man put in the seat held by generally dishonest, rude, and greedy men.

[Sphinx]

I honestly don't follow the team closely, so I can't comment on Craig Pollock.

But, I can't imagine a driver, especially such a successful one as JV, committing and staying with a team just for corrupt income. Drivers put their life on the line everyday because they love the sport and want to win.

The money is secondary.

So, I cannot go along with this theory.

[Lexiz]

I agree Sphnix, certainly money was a factor but I have no doubt in my mind that there is no corruption between Mr. Pollock and Mr. Villeneuve. If anybody views it as that, Mr. Pollock and Mr. Villeneuve certainly had no intentions of it. It was a huge accomplishment for Mr. Pollock to get BAR off the ground, and he would not risk it for something this stupid.

[Rainbowtrout]

Seems to me you forgot the most important piece of information.

Pollack's wife owns a company who gets a percentage of JV's salary since that company is apparently JV's agent!

Of course, CP and his wife don't talk while on the pillow!

[Lexiz]

Originally posted by Rainbowtrout
Seems to me you forgot the most important piece of information.

Pollack's wife owns a company who gets a percentage of JV's salary since that company is apparently JV's agent!

Of course, CP and his wife don't talk while on the pillow!

Mrs. Pollock owns it for financial reasons, and Mr. Pollock as I'm sure you know has managed JV long before he even raced in Atlantics. They met at Beau Soleil (boarding school) where Mr. Pollock was his instructor.

Enough history though, my point is that Mr. Pollock does not need to fluff up JV's salary for his own benefit. I don't think you remembered that Mr. Pollock has a large share of BAR and is living comfortably. Not to mention that The Management company or whatever it's called is not totally Mr. Pollock behind the wheel. It happens to manage more than just Mr. Villeneuve. Nobody major, but its not just a front.

My point is that Mr. Pollock does not NEED JV's salary to beef up his bank accounts, nor his companies.

Oh, and Pollock was married long before he even met Jacques or became involved in motor racing.

[bira]

This thread is treading on the borders of slander. I suggest you proceed carefully with that

[Rainbowtrout]

Originally posted by bira
This thread is treading on the borders of slander. I suggest you proceed carefully with that

I heard it on the radio last week. That this information about CP's wife and the management company was published in an F1 magazine in the UK.

I'm not making anything up.

I've also heard right from the start that CP was still in charge of JV's career. So why are people surprised if he touches a cut of JV's revenues?

That's none of our business in all reality unless, yes unless, BAT was not aware of it which I seriously doubt.

[P1 Pyrsol]

where's jayway???

[130R]

daydream - you have got to be joking!

[Paste]

Originally posted by bira
This thread is treading on the borders of slander. I suggest you proceed carefully with that

Thankyou.. It's about time someone stepped in to stop this garbage.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's a fair discussion

Did Craig Pollock stop managing Jacques Villeneuve? If he hasnt, or his wife owns a company who does; it is rather eye-raising

[Byrellium]

So because I heard it on the radio or read it somewhere it is fact? WOW!

Thanks again to Bria for telling it like it is.

[Andy]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned JV's own, personal financial stake in this team. Although not formally confirmed, it is widely believed that JV himself has a sizeable financial stake invested in BAR. If this is true then daydream's statement here would also mean that Jacques & Craig are ripping themselves off!!

I strongly believe that JV is, first and foremost, a race car driver. By the end of his second year in F1 he had won all of the major open-wheel championships and was looking for another "challenge", BAR was it and I think BAR is proving to be his toughest challenge yet. As for his lack of performance so far this year, although it does really piss me off as a die-hard JV fan, I think JV is used to beating his challenges rather quickly and the fact that this one is proving hard to beat is getting him down. Sometimes I get the feeling he is on the verge of giving up, and just when I think that he does something to convince me otherwise! Granted, this is all just my humble opinion...

[JayWay]

In an interview with warmup.br.com a Brazilian F1 site, Jacques Villeneuve stated that the idea that he holds a financial stake in the team is false.

P.S Liverpool 3 Everton 2 Bizzzznatch

[BARnone]

Andy:

I don't think JV owns any of BAR. I believe he has said that before. It's a commonly held belief - but I don't think it's true.

BARnone.

[umma gumma]

well, I'm pretty sure whatever JV does, money isn't the prime motivator. he could quit today and live comfortably for ever after.

as for the "corruption" investigation, didn't they start the team together? that's hardly corruption. without JV to support him, I doubt Craig could have gotten BAT to commit in the first place.

go sniff some more glue

[Rainbowtrout]

Originally posted by umma gumma

well, I'm pretty sure whatever JV does, money isn't the prime motivator. he could quit today and live comfortably for ever after.

as for the "corruption" investigation, didn't they start the team together? that's hardly corruption. without JV to support him, I doubt Craig could have gotten BAT to commit in the first place.

go sniff some more glue

You have a valid point. When JV went to Bar his value on the market was very high. Without JV there would be no BAR. So BAT must assume their decision.

If JV's stock is going down this year, you must blame him and the BAR people.

As for the relationship with his wife, I suggest you look at the magazines published on F1 that is where the information is coming from.

If I find it I'll let you know.

[swoopp]

Maybe people at BAT believe in Jacques, just like a lot of us do.

[Eartha Kitten]

Daydream (appropriate name!),

Imagine this scenario:

You are a businessman who is the agent of a very talented individual (let's say a Painter) and you also know this company (let's say BAT paints) who are looking at more than just sponsoring an exhibition but rather owning their own gallerry.

The businessman discusses the possibility of opening a new gallery with BAT's paint money (and call it BAT Gallery) with an understanding that all of the painting of our talented friend will be exposed and sold solely through this gallery for the next few years.

Since you were the agent of the painter, you discuss with both the painter and Jotun that your commission arrangement does not change (heck why should it, you just secured a great deal for your painter for the next few years). Furthermore, you convince the people at BAT that you will will manage the Gallery in exchange for a salary and a part ownership with a friend who is in the Art Gallery business.

After analysing all of the pros and cons (like business people do) BAT Paints decides that they will get their money's worth out of this deal and plough their money in the venture.

IF THE PAINTER GOES THROUGH A PATCH WHERE HIS PAINTING ARE NOT AS GOOD AS THEY WERE AND THERE AREN'T AS MANY PEOPLE VISITING THE GALLERY, DOES THAT MAKE THE BUSINESSMAN OR THE PAINTER CORRUPT??????

Come on WAKE-UP Daydream

Pollock seems to be good at convincing people and he should get his due for that. As somebody who deals with investors for a living (people like the people in BAT), let me tell you, it's not that easy to get their money. They do their homework!!!

You want to criticise Pollock for his management of the team, be my guest! However, a business venture that does not deliver the results expected does not make one a crook.

However, as Andy hinted and I will say bluntly, your insinuations are slanderous and you should be careful before writting such BS!

[Arnaldo]

This guy posted the same thread in 10-tenths under the name of kukuciau or something like that, and I stated that it was the second silliest thread I have ever read there. I can't believe the same guy has posted the same silly thread here. :yawn: :yawn:

[Ross Stonefeld]

Eartha Kitten, its called conflict of interest

[Eartha Kitten]

Ross,

you are right, it is a conflict of interest. But these people are business people and not public officials. They can agree together that these conflicts are acceptable.

[Arnaldo]

Thi is NOT a case of conflict of interest. Conflict of interest only applies to public companies where the regulations clearly state that such offers of employ or works letting be put out to tender. Such has never been the case with any of he teams in F1. This is just a case of nonsense posted by the same guy who posted this silly thread in the 10-tenths forum.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Exactly because its a business is why some people take note of it. If JV's last name was pollock it'd be called nepotism

[Eartha Kitten]

You would have called it nepotism! But since it was agreed upon between parties. I would still call it a deal!

[daydream]

well, i call it cronism.. JV and Pollock are cronies. If you look back at their history back to the states, they knew each other for a very long time. And all those corruption that involves cronies, you can see a history of close relationship between the cronies ( a relationship that happens because of the same interest.i.e, to suckle money)

And JV and Pollock is no exception to this case, their close bond with each other is because of their interest to suckle money.

I would say over here, Pollock is the guy who uses his brains, while JV is the guy is greedy, but dun have the brains to do it. Yet, both of them can still become a formidable partner because of one reason only......because JV is a FORMULA ONE DRIVER and a F1 Driver who happens to be WORLD CHAMPION by ACCIDENT!formula one driver

ACCIDENT


So, you can't say that Pollock made use of JV to get money because JV also benefited from the high pay as well obviously. ........ but you can always see from here, Pollock is the smart guy while JV is less smart!

Pollock just warm his chair in the office, while JV went out to risk his life to make this deal work!...

[Eartha Kitten]

WTH are you talking about daydream???

Oh never mind, into the ignore lsit you go!!!;)

[Eartha Kitten]

Funny, by the time I had posted my reply, his comment had already been deleted!!!

I like this ignore list:up:

[Billy]

daydream, what about Flavio Briatore?? Press reports indicated that he was very keen to sign JV last year, and had lined up a significant amount of money to make that possible, but BAR were able to match the Renault offer. JV's market value (very high last year, perhaps less right now) underwrites his lucrative contract, independent of who is running the BAR team.

[arcwulf7]

As I remember it (and I don't have exact figures) Jacques is earning about $10MM, making him third on the salary list behind behind the only other currently racing WDCs, Schumacher at $30MM and Hakkinen at $15MM. Obviously the cache of having the moniker 'former WDC' is worth paying for by the sponsors who foot the bill, and that, rather than 'current performance' is the operative element. Former WDC's bring a natural interest, credibility and fan franchise with them. Whether Villeneuve has a magnitude of talent 5 or 10 times Panis's, in line with their salaries, is moot. Obviously Jacques does not, but the sponsors are well aware former WDC's tend to resurface as lead runners. Corruption no, business economics is all this is about.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by daydream
The anti corruption agency should really look hard into this matter. This is getting too much.

Imagine this, a Managing Director of a company awards a huge contract to someone. And the guy who got the contract happens to be the Managing Director's friend, and thats the only reason he got the contract. And the guy awarded of the contract underperform badly. There is surely some form of corruption going on to suckle the company's money.

The same thing happen in BAR. Craig Pollock and JV are good friends. So Craig Pollock convinced BAT that this is the guy to do the job and the amount of money required to get the job done .i.e JV's huge salary. JV is really underperforming. Why don't someone from BAR look seriously into this matter and lodge a report to the anti corruption agency? They can tape the phone conversation between JV and Craig Pollock to get evidence of corruption.

Hope the BAR lawyers are reading this stuff!!!!!

I read this and was I surprised to see you are a new member? No...

Just to give you a clue, JV has had much more reason to be dissatisfied with BAR's performance than BAR has with JV's. If you follow F1 seriously you will know this. You will also know BAR have been working to hold on to JV while JV has showed clear signs of wanting to move to other teams.

JV has a large stake in the BAR team. I don't know what the exact amounts are but I would not be surprised if he has put more money into the team than he has taken out of it. Sure he has a high salary. He was WDC in 1997 remember. Finally, if the BAR team wants to they can get rid of Craig and JV.

[Billy]

Originally posted by Hooster
JV has a large stake in the BAR team.

other members have said in this thread that JV is not a shareholder. Do you have any evidence that JV is a shareholder?

so far all I can find is:
http://www.insidef1....ns/ns04028.html

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Billy

other members have said in this thread that JV is not a shareholder. Do you have any evidence that JV is a shareholder?

so far all I can find is:
http://www.insidef1....ns/ns04028.html

Do you need more? Anyone who followed F1 news when the BAR team was formed knows JV is a shareholder. I am not an information service and I dont have time to do free research. Send me a check for 10.000$ and I will see what I can do. Otherwise please do it on your own time.

[Billy]

Hooster, you said a "large" stake. In terms of shareholding, this would indicate JV owned a significant percentage of the company, and hence would be represented on the board of directors.

However, the current board of directors is made up of 5 British-American Tobacco executives (Kenneth Clarke, Don Brown, Nick Brookes, Antonio Monteiro de Castro and Jimmi Rembiszewski) as well as 3 representives from BAR (Craig Pollock, Jerry Forsythe and Adrian Reynard).

Therefore if JV has a shareholding, I would say it must be quite small.

[Hooster]

I would say a lot of things too but I don't think many care what I say if there is nothing to back it up. The same goes for you Billy.

[BARnone]

I don't think Villeneuve is a shareholder. BAT has 51% and the Pollock/Reynard group have the rest. Villeneuve himself has said at different times he doesn't own any BAR stock. Also, I don't believe that Pollock is Villeneuve's manager anymore.

I do remember reading that Villeneuve put up some of Pollock's share of the money to buy into BAR. Pollock would certainly have made a percentage of Villeneuve's earning up until the acquisition of BAR but I have also read that it was a relatively small percentage (compared to the going rate).

BARnone.

[Hooster]

Thanks. I amend my first post in this thread to say Villeneuve has a stake in the BAR team instead of saying he has a large stake.

I don't think this changes anything regarding the topic of this thread and I still think daydream is full of BS.

[BARnone]

Oh - and one other thing about conflict of interest - there is no law that says an employee cannot be a shareholder. This is done all the time. In sports the name Mario Lemieux comes immediatley to mind.

BARnone.

[Billy]

Originally posted by BARnone
BAT has 51% and the Pollock/Reynard group have the rest.

I have just read that BAT has 50%, Reynard 15% and an American company called MountEagle has 35%. Pollock and Reynard aren't really a group because they don't get along: Reynard tried to oust Pollock in 1999.

A BAR newsgroup reported the following

According to EuroBusiness magazine, BAR was capitalized with $35-million, of which a 50-per-cent ($17.5-million) equity stake is owned by British American Tobacco. Adrian Reynard contributed $5.25-million for a 15-per-cent holding, with the remaining 35 per cent held by Mount Eagle, a consortium of Jerry Forsythe, Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve. Forsythe is understood to have contributed $5.25-million, with Pollock and Villeneuve each putting in $3.5-million for 20 per cent between them.

That would make JV a 10% shareholder in BAR, held indirectly. Technically speaking, he would not be shareholder in BAR, he is a shareholder in a company that owns BAR shares ;)

[Billy]

Another news item from 16th June 2000

Villeneuve was offered shares in the team as part of his joining package in 1998 but he denied this and suggested that should he leave, it would not necessarily be the end of his relationship with Pollock.

"I don't own any shares in BAR," he added. "And it's not guaranteed that my move to any other team would separate me from my friend Craig Pollock. He could leave also."

[BARnone]

Billy:

I have seen that quote before. I believe Villeneuve is referring Craig Pollock's employment arrangements with BAR.

BARnone.

[Rainbowtrout]

Originally posted by daydream
well, i call it cronism.. JV and Pollock are cronies. If you look back at their history back to the states, they knew each other for a very long time. And all those corruption that involves cronies, you can see a history of close relationship between the cronies ( a relationship that happens because of the same interest.i.e, to suckle money)

And JV and Pollock is no exception to this case, their close bond with each other is because of their interest to suckle money.

I would say over here, Pollock is the guy who uses his brains, while JV is the guy is greedy, but dun have the brains to do it. Yet, both of them can still become a formidable partner because of one reason only......because JV is a FORMULA ONE DRIVER and a F1 Driver who happens to be WORLD CHAMPION by ACCIDENT!formula one driver

ACCIDENT


So, you can't say that Pollock made use of JV to get money because JV also benefited from the high pay as well obviously. ........ but you can always see from here, Pollock is the smart guy while JV is less smart!

Pollock just warm his chair in the office, while JV went out to risk his life to make this deal work!...

I would also like to add. Last night on a local show, Pierre Lecours who covered Gilles career and all of JV's said one interesting thing about Craig Pollack.


He said that wherever CP went he made ennemies.


Apparently, his ego is bigger than JV's and that people who work with him find him totally insuferable.

That why Bar is where Bar is now!

[Andy]

Read this one again...

A BAR newsgroup reported the following

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to EuroBusiness magazine, BAR was capitalized with $35-million, of which a 50-per-cent ($17.5-million) equity stake is owned by British American Tobacco. Adrian Reynard contributed $5.25-million for a 15-per-cent holding, with the remaining 35 per cent held by Mount Eagle, a consortium of Jerry Forsythe, Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve. Forsythe is understood to have contributed $5.25-million, with Pollock and Villeneuve each putting in $3.5-million for 20 per cent between them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course Jacques doesn't hold shares in BAR. He holds shares in Mount Eagle! This means that, theoretically, Pollock and the rest do not own shares in BAR either, their joint company, Mount Eagle does. This is the loop-hole which allows JV to say he does not own BAR shares. It's not that difficult to figure out!

BTW, I am one of 3 majority shareholders in my company JETPLAST and myself and 1 other shareholder are also employees of the Corporation. This does not make for conflict of interest, it is in fact a very common occurance.

[Eartha Kitten]

Andy,

if the post is accurate, I would think that JV would be motivated to perform in order to increase the value of BAR. As you said, this is not unusual!!!

[BARnone]

Andy:

I too am an equity partner in the company I work for and I just don't see Pollock/JV in any conflict of interest.

Rainbow: as for Pollock making enemies - I don't know how true that is. It is a subject thing. Some of the most successful people in the world are not well liked. If he had that many enemies I suspect he couldn't have put the BAR deal together to start with nor would he have been able to attract Honda.

BARnone.

[Todd]

I think that the concern over JV and CP's relationship at BAR has less to do with profiting from the success of the enterprise and more to do with fiscal malfeasance of the sponsors' money. Are CP and JV paying each other(and CP's wife) too much in an effort to plunder the sponsors' funds? It would explain the team's stagnant performance.

[Lexiz]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous. There is absolutely no corruption between these two. Craig Pollock is not the dictator of BAR, he is merely managing director. He has to face a board at BAR just like anyone else.

And daydream, who said they were a money-suckling duo, give me a break. Craig was JV's MANAGER and that was his bloody job, there is nothing wrong with that. However there is a conflict if he still is manager, but I believe that is Mr. David Moore's job at the moment (correct me if I am wrong). They are best friends, but I don't see anything corrupt going on here.

And the blurb about Mounteagle or whatever, that is most likely correct. CP and JV did not have the capital to even buy tyrell probably so they enforced the help of fat cat Jerry Forscythe. Again, nothing wrong with that. Obviously Jacques wanted an investment and at the same time to help out his friend.

Just my two cents.