28 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

Anybody got any ideas for a lazy friend of mine? He wants to use a production car spindle and brake system on his off road buggy, ideally for 13" or 14" wheels. It's double wishbone.

 

Personally i think he should grow a pair and build the spindle himself from sheet steel etc, or sign up for ballet classes.

 

 

[kikiturbo2]

you mean upright?

some people use a normal mcpherson upright and then make an adapter that bolts to the upright and connects to the upper A arm, and use the nornal balljoint for the bottom. That way he can have both wishbones inside the wheel and still have influence on the front end geometry without having to doo too much fabrication.

FWD upright is fine, just cutt off the outside CV and use the end of it to bolt trough the open hub, which is a necessity do to the need for bearing preload..

[Greg Locock]

When pushed in the past I have used old Ford front ends (Tbird, Mustang, Crown Vic), but of course they are cast steel (at a guess) and no good for the driven axle.

 

"some people use a normal mcpherson upright and then make an adapter that bolts to the upright and connects to the upper A arm, and use the nornal balljoint for the bottom. That way he can have both wishbones inside the wheel and still have influence on the front end geometry without having to doo too much fabrication."

 

Yes, that's what Neil Roshier did for his car. It's a good approach because the rack height vs castor problem can be solved in the bolt on bracket.

 

I still reckon he should be saving up for a tutu.

[Bloggsworth]

Find himself a rusting Triumph TR, Spitfire, GT6 or TR7 and get himself a pair of the ubiquitous Alford and Alder front corners complete with discs and callipers. There must be several Triumph specialists in North America. The damn things are pretty near unbreakable with the larger stub-axle. The Lotus 20/22/23 etc used them as well as the Elan and Elite, sometimes with honking great ally callipers.

[Fat Boy]

Get one off a small formula car (Van Diemen or maybe a Spectrum in Oz) or here http://www.sandcars.com/.

[MatsNorway]

Cody Loveland uses Polaris parts in the suspention on his Pikes peak car.

http://scontent-b.cd...611742560_a.jpg

http://www.gogocycle...re-21732771.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 30 May 2015 - 09:17.

[Lee Nicolle]

Anybody got any ideas for a lazy friend of mine? He wants to use a production car spindle and brake system on his off road buggy, ideally for 13" or 14" wheels. It's double wishbone.

 

Personally i think he should grow a pair and build the spindle himself from sheet steel etc, or sign up for ballet classes.

Off roader with 13" wheels? That will not happen!

[carlt]

what size/weight buggy 

some of the larger capacity quads have lovely components

[Greg Locock]

I may have the wheel size wrong

 

http://i.ebayimg.com...0-1/s-l1000.jpg

 

is what he currently races, Hayabusa engine, chain drive no diff. However, its off road design is excessive for the course he races on.

[NeilR]

PCD may set the choice, but Holden Gemini are much used - steel though. All alloy ones will be for a bigger wheel as late model cars have them. MX5 are good too.

[rory57]

Citroen CX front corner will give you aluminium knuckle integrated with the 4 pot brake caliper. Top  and bottom ball joints for parallel-ish arms.  14" Wheels.

Edited by rory57, 31 May 2015 - 18:20.

[GBarclay]

Greg

 

I know you are not in the US, but have has your friend considered something from Speedway? or similar?

 

http://www.speedwaym...pindles/12.html

[Kelpiecross]

Morris Mini front suspension uprights are useful for smaller cars etc.

[Greg Locock]

I've just checked and the drunken scrawl does say 14 inch diameter.  I think a modern FWD MacP with an upper ball joint bracket sounds pretty good at this point. Thanks for the suggestions.

[NeilR]

Self-made hillclimb ones: Honda bearing and hub ($50 ebay), Holden rear caliper ($90 PBR) - slider, 248mm solid disc ($45).

 

Older Holden ones beefed up:

Edited by NeilR, 02 June 2015 - 13:44.

[Lee Nicolle]

Self-made hillclimb ones: Honda bearing and hub ($50 ebay), Holden rear caliper ($90 PBR) - slider, 248mm solid disc ($45).

 

Older Holden ones beefed up:

What are those hubs? The stubs are Holden, steering arms appear Torana.

Info on Holden stubs. HD, HR, Torana [exc L34]  are basically the same as are HK HT HG ones too. HQ on drop the spindle 1/2" and are a good deal stronger too. The same 7" centre to centre and use the same ball joints, hubs and steering arms all interchange.

You can use a Commodore lower ball joint and make extenders too increase the centres without much work too. Calliper bolts are common 3.5" centres too so most available callipers can be used.

My IP Torana uses HQ stubs with Commodore rotors and Jag 4 spots. Bolt together and uses common 15" Commy alloys.

[NeilR]

Hubs made to suit. Off Richard Bendell's Daytona - axles are beefed up and new hubs made.

[JamieRev]

Thank you Greg for introducing me to the esteemed forum.

 

The tutu that I currently dance in a Edge Barracuda mini buggy powered by a Gen II Suzuki GSXR 1300 Hayabusa engine (www.theedgeproducts.com). I race it monthly with a race club called Torc (torc.com.au). We are a CAMS affiliated club. Our rules are different for the to the 'big' buggies in that we can use smaller tubes for the frame and inboard rear brakes.

 

I want to build a new buggy that meets the 'big' buggy rules. Our mini buggies are faster than the big buggies on the tighter tracks (ie with corners) that the big boys run.

 

To make the build simpler I do not want to make the front or rear uprights. This is where I thought Greg could help, but clearly he has decided to dial a friend.... So any help is greatly appreciated.

 

I currently run 10" wheels with ATV tyres running at 7 psi. 6" wide at the front and 12" wide at the rear. The buggy weighs 500kg and has 160 hp. I rarely can use full power as I am traction limited.

 

For the new mini-buggy I am looking for:

 

1) Front upright to suit a double A front suspension - target travel is 400mm minimum

 

2) Rear upright with some sort of multilink design - target travel 350mm minimum. Need strong CV joints that can handle at large angles.

 

Maximum wheel diameter I can use is 14". Would prefer aluminium hubs with disc brakes.

 

The first priority is that the suspension is strong - then a design to maximise the handling.

 

With the uprights selected, I will then design the longest suspension arms I can fit in to minimise the angles. Over track limit is 1930mm.

 

Any suggests greatly welcome.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NeilR]

OK, wheels are going to set some parameters. As most late model stuff will not fit under a 14" wheel. EG. Series 6/7 RX7 rear uprights are alloy and solid enough, but no way will a 14" wheel work - if you're in VIC I have a pair you can look at. Go older than that and alloy parts will be a struggle.

Front uprights decide if you are going front/rear steer. Look at early Gemini uprights - light and steel and removable steering arm. Bearings work in hillclimb cars with sticky rubber and brakes are upgradeable. Newer - MX5 - earlier only for 14" wheel. Front strut conversion possible at both ends.

Driveshafts - Nissan Pulsar. Light, cheap and long, small diameter. Any FWD driveshaft will work, but look at the Nissan. If you go this way then it will be simpler to just go Nissan at each corner to match driveshafts.

Oh,perhaps have a chat to Brett Hayward. He recently came second in the NZ race to the sky in his own 4wd 'buggy' that is hayabusa powered. He has a bit more power than you, but he is a good bloke to talk to.

Edited by NeilR, 04 June 2015 - 13:20.

[gruntguru]

Awesome! A kiwi Pikes Peak - with bumps. (and dirt). Do they run rally cars up there - it looks smooth enough?

 

The front CV joints must be working hard in some of those tight turns.

Edited by gruntguru, 04 June 2015 - 22:55.

[JamieRev]

Hi NeilR,

 

I have seen the video - awesome.

 

Thanks for the suggestions - Gemini and MX5 are great suggestions - I will visit the wreckers yard on weekend and see if I can find some to look at. Ideally would like a setup with the bottom balljoint in compression. Balljoint angles will be my issue.

 

My current buggy has Heim joints mounted in the vertical, so good for 500mm of front suspension travel, but it has limited steering lock before the joint limits out. I need more lock as sometime spinout for lack of steering lock on oversteer. I also run a XC Barina column-mounted electric power steering unit - reduced steering loads is a great steering damper which is important.

 

I would prefer the rack in front. More space for the pedal assembly.

 

Can you think of any (modern) front wheel drive cars (or 4WD) with double a-arm suspension? Ideally I will want to mount the rear Fox shocks directly to the upright.

 

Thanks

Jamie

 

 

 

[NeilR]

Grunt they do run rally cars, in fact one of them won, albeit 'just'. Brett is a Australian Hill Climb champion on sealed surfaces, but his background is in such cars and dirt bikes for fun.

Jamie, not really sure what modern FWD car would have the classic close wishbone/small knuckle setup. All of the ones I have seen use a long upright ala' Falcon, which is not what you want. Also every FWD car I have seen use a rear mounted rack for packaging reasons. You can get high angularity spherical bearings, but it is still not the best solution. Would you not have enough motion with a road going suspension joint from a Falcon etc?

[MatsNorway]

Can we disgus Polaris parts? I do not understand why old roadcar parts is recommended over a purpose buildt steering/suspention system with mounts for double wishbone and everything.

 

700kg buggie

http://www.polaris.c...onochrome/specs

[JamieRev]

Send a hour at the wreckers today - the only double A arm from wheel drive car I found was a Hond Civic. It has the long arm/short are design like the falcon (which is heavier that I want).

 

I will ask Greg when I see him what is the maximum angle a BA falcon ball joint can operate too.

 

Yes most (all) strut front wheel drive cars have a rear mount rack. I can fix that by swapping the upright left for right.

 

MatsNorway, Polaris have some great parts, most are a bit lighter than I would prefer, and they are pricey. I will have a look and ebay and see what I can find.

[MatsNorway]

What is the target weight of the buggie?

[JamieRev]

My current buggie weights 550kg with the hayabusa engine. This new buggie target is 450kg. Will use a smaller engine this time.

 

Key issue is not ripping the wheels off. The track I race on gets very rough. Most events someone's buggie brakes a suspension corner somehow.

 

Plan to run a small diff and put the motorcycle engine in the north/south. Chain drives is the other reliability issue I want to avoid.

 

Jamie

[NeilR]

There was a shaft drive version of the Hayabusa series engines used in a touring bike. Chains add a level of flexibility with drive ratios that will be impossible to match.

[Johan Lekas]

Maybe something like this?

http://berrisford.co...ly-car-kit.html

http://berrisford.co.uk/index.php/

(can't see any caliper mount though? )

[NeilR]

How about the midget speedway stuff from the states?