128 replies to this topic

[LORDBYRON]

F1 at its best. Wants to stay in the past.  May be its a cost issue with teams but its jut anther nail in the coffin of "we are the best we dont need change" If Formula E had more tv cover it might just take over

 

F1 seems determined to live in the past 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119331

Edited by LORDBYRON, 05 June 2015 - 23:20.

[viceroy1]

They really should go to 18 inch... sigh

[ninetyzero]

F1 doing it's usual thing of threatening to do something interesting and then bottling it. sigh..

[HeadFirst]

F1 at its best. Wants to stay in the past.  May be its a cost issue with teams but its jut anther nail in the coffin of "we are the best we dont need change" If Formula E had more tv cover it might just take over

 

F1 seems determined to live in the past 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119331

 

I guess that's why they have abandoned aero, and returned to V-12 engines.

[FerrariV12]

What would be quicker? The better tyre performance of an 18" or the lower unsprung weight of a 13"? Genuine question, not that it matters I guess. They should allow both and let the teams work out what is quickest but F1 is focussed on appearance over performance. I would have said "modern F1" but it's been that way since they banned closed wheels in '61 I suppose.

[pjnoake]

Well that means Michelin won't supply tyres, and I can't see many other companies wanting to make 13" tyres, so Pirelli seems to be the only choice for the foreseeable future. Not that I've got anything against Pirelli, just reduces F1's options when it comes to tyres.

[Ali_G]

Makes zero difference to me. I'd go as far to say that the 18 inch wheels are ugly.

At least the 420mm tyres are still on the table which is a very good thing IMO.

[OO7]

Makes zero difference to me. I'd go as far to say that the 18 inch wheels are ugly.

At least the 420mm tyres are still on the table which is a very good thing IMO.

They should make them 460mm.

[JHSingo]

What difference does it make whether they use 13 inch wheels or 18 inch wheels?

 

They're wheels FFS. Who gives a crap?

[RealRacing]

13 inch wheels look better and one tyre provider is the way to go, so it's ok.

[Talisker]

The size of the tyres is completely unimportant to most people. It just doesn't matter. It's not living in the past, any more than having open cockpits is. Most road cars have moved on from that, you know.

[warp]

What difference does it make whether they use 13 inch wheels or 18 inch wheels?

 

They're wheels FFS. Who gives a crap?

 

Word. Actually, every team should decide what tyre-wheel to use. if they want to run monster truck tyres, so be it. This is F1.

[Watkins74]

One week here everyone wants the past -"the good old days", the next week they want change. Which is it?

 

This is why fan surveys are epic fails. I guess some of you want 18" wheels with spinners. 

[aguri]

One week here everyone wants the past -"the good old days", the next week they want change. Which is it?

 

This is why fan surveys are epic fails. I guess some of you want 18" wheels with spinners. 

 

One thing I hate about this whole 18 v 13 discussion is that anyone in favour of 18inch wheels is instantly labeled a tacky boy racer type with no attention span. 

No one wants spinners - it has not been mentioned once as a serious change in the year that this discussion has been taking place. Yet the 13in crowd bring it up in every thread as a way to assert some non existent superiority of opinion.

 

There are numerous reasons for 18inch wheels:

- Better suspension development

- More road and other race car relevance not just for wheels but also tyres and suspension,

- More tyre suppliers (potentially cheaper tyres)

- and very lastly aesthetics (a minor concern)

 

How about we start listing the reasons to keep 13inch wheels, and maybe also start asking the question: if teams had no regulation what size wheel would they go for?

[Ali_G]

One thing I hate about this whole 18 v 13 discussion is that anyone in favour of 18inch wheels is instantly labeled a tacky boy racer type with no attention span.

No one wants spinners - it has not been mentioned once as a serious change in the year that this discussion has been taking place. Yet the 13in crowd bring it up in every thread as a way to assert some non existent superiority of opinion.

There are numerous reasons for 18inch wheels:
- Better suspension development
- More road and other race car relevance not just for wheels but also tyres and suspension,
- More tyre suppliers (potentially cheaper tyres)
- and very lastly aesthetics (a minor concern)

How about we start listing the reasons to keep 13inch wheels, and maybe also start asking the question: if teams had no regulation what size wheel would they go for?

13 inch wheels as they are faster. Less unsprung weight. And it may surprise you but not everyone thinks that 18 inch wheels look good.

[GTRacer]

13 inch wheels as they are faster

There not actually.

 

Michelin recently did some testing with a WSBR 3.5 car on 18" wheels & found that they were a second a lap faster. As a result WSBR are now looking at moving to 18" wheels possibly as soon as next year. They also ran a 2ltr Formula Renault car on 17" wheels & saw a similar performance gain.

 

Likewise most (If not all) the WEC teams run 18" wheels because they offer performance benefits.

 

 

Other top MotorSport categories are already running larger tyres (At least 15") or are looking at moving to them within a few years, F1 is pretty much the only category that still uses such small wheel sizes & will likely soon be the only one.

Edited by GTRacer, 06 June 2015 - 02:56.

[Alfisti]

13 inch wheels as they are faster. Less unsprung weight. And it may surprise you but not everyone thinks that 18 inch wheels look good.

They look absolute shite on an open wheel vehicle. 15 to 16 inch looks best. 

[KingTiger]

     

 

There is absolutely no point to switch. They are also incredibly ugly. 

[Ali_G]

They look absolute shite on an open wheel vehicle. 15 to 16 inch looks best.

CART ran with 15s and they looked damn good.

[HeadFirst]

CART ran with 15s and they looked damn good.

 

That's pricless. F1 is stuck in the past, so let's go for a look from CART. What was that 20 years ago?

[TIPO61]

Let the teams chose from both sizes. Natural selection will work out best.

[Mat13]

This wheel argument is a joke. I wonder how many of the people complaining that 13" wheels are old-fashioned also want V8s back? There is an article on Autosport in which Paddy Lowe 13" wheels are better from a performance perspective, and that's all anyone should be worried about.

[Lemans]

CART ran with 15s and they looked damn good.

 

Agreed. CART had it right. 15" is the perfect size.

[Ali_G]

That's pricless. F1 is stuck in the past, so let's go for a look from CART. What was that 20 years ago?

Hold on a second, what the he'll does talking about how a wheel looked on a particular car have anything remotely to do with F1 being stuck in the past ?. GP cars in the 30s ran with wheels bigger than 18 inches. Do you have an issue with that.

Bizarre logic. Truly bizarre.

[Rocket73]

Personally I am glad they decided to reject yet another change in the regs, along with refuelling it seems, and these wheels look so gimmicky.

Saying that F1 is stuck in the past with the current PUs and unbelievable technical level is a bit silly.

[alfa1]

"we are the best we dont need change"

 

There is no other sport in the world that changes so much and so often as F1.

 

I would have voted against the different size simply because "stop messing about with the rules."

[rpn453]

. . . maybe also start asking the question: if teams had no regulation what size wheel would they go for?

That's what I'd like to see.  Open up the regulations somehow and let the best wheels thrive, whatever that may be.

 

The 13" wheels do look good to me; like they wouldn't get destroyed by pot-holes.  For the terrible Canadian prairie roads that I drive on, I'll take all the sidewall I can get!

[DarthWillie]

.


- More tyre suppliers (potentially cheaper tyres)

More tire suppliers will have a two fold effect, worse racing and higher cost
-it will start a development war, the cost of which will be paid by the teams.
-if one supplier has a superior tire one half of the grid has no chance (like 2005)
-suppliers will develop for 1 team like Bridgestone did with Ferrari, disadvantaging the other teams from that make

Like it is said before I would like to know the performance difference between 13 and 18 inch

[pUs]

Well well. Stuck with Pirellis impressive products then 

[August]

The idea of 18in wheels was just another idea by F1 trying to reinvent itself with bad reception. How many new fans would've the 18in wheels brought? New If anything, the introduction of ugly 18in wheels would've been yet another reason for the existing fans to dislike F1 more.

[PayasYouRace]

Shame. I was hoping F1 would get with the times in this regard.

 

Was this really such an outrageous bit of news that the OP couldn't proof read the thread title?

[Jbleroi]

Well well. Stuck with Pirellis impressive products then

It is not (only) pirelli to blame that f1 has this hideous rule that teams have to run with two different type of tires during a race

[Timstr11]

The idea of 18in wheels was just another idea by F1 trying to reinvent itself with bad reception. How many new fans would've the 18in wheels brought? New If anything, the introduction of ugly 18in wheels would've been yet another reason for the existing fans to dislike F1 more.

 

Reading the responses in this thread, surely you must realize there's no such thing as 'the existing fans' as if it's one homogeneous group with the same opinions about the sport.

I'm always amazed when posters respond on behalf of 'the fans'.

 

I'm always mindful and just give my personal opinion, without pretending to speak on behalf of the F1 fan base.

[Seanspeed]

If Formula E had more tv cover it might just take over

Hahaha

[TomNokoe]

They are super ugly. Good job team.

[Ben1445]

   

This is what's wrong with F1 to me. It's lacking direction. It seems to want to push into the future and at the same time hold onto the past. No one can agree, everyone gets passionate and nothing happens. It's poor form in my opinion.

I was hoping to see 18 inch rims. They work fine on LMP1 and Formula E cars as far as i'm concerned. 

 

[BullHead]

Personally, I don't like 18", I find them aesthetically unappealing and their introduction would be a step closer to looking like other motorsport series, or (crappy) road sportscars.  That said, I wouldn't mind a choice being opened up to the teams, with perhaps an alternative tyre supplier. Thing is, if as has been suggested the current spec is actually quicker anyway, then no one would go for it.

[Timstr11]

I wouldn't mind the move to the 18 inch rims, but I do understand the arguments against them.

Given that F1 is looking at lowering weight and increasing grip by 2017, the 18 inch rims will achieve the opposite.

 

Surprised to learn about the lower grip though. I guess it's the result of less movement in the side walls.

[Rasputin]

What difference does it make whether they use 13 inch wheels or 18 inch wheels?

 

They're wheels FFS. Who gives a crap?

Indeed, I believe F1 has more urgent matters to attend to than the size of wheel rims.

[Quickshifter]

There are bigger issues that are there in front of f1 than rim size. Forget the pros and cons, just look at the additional cost it will bring to the platter with teams having to literally devise a new aero and suspension package. Just because Michelin say 13" rims are a thing of past, we should all lap it up like gospel truth is it?

Michelin have their own ludicrous demands like they don't want to design fast degrading tyres, want 18 inch rims and what not. They should be catering to the requirements of formula one instead they want formula one to bend over backwards to have them as the tyr supplier.

[Fastcake]

That's a shame, 18 inch wheels are better from pretty much every angle.

[hittheapex]

That's pricless. F1 is stuck in the past, so let's go for a look from CART. What was that 20 years ago?

Sometimes things change for the worse, not the better. Personally I back what several others have said, let the teams decide which one is faster. Although in the interests of cost, they'd have to decide at least several months in advance of the season they propose to bring in different wheels. No good teams and Pirelli producing a million different wheels and tyres and bringing them to each race. They could have a mid season test.

 

 

There are bigger issues that are there in front of f1 than rim size. Forget the pros and cons, just look at the additional cost it will bring to the platter with teams having to literally devise a new aero and suspension package. Just because Michelin say 13" rims are a thing of past, we should all lap it up like gospel truth is it?

Michelin have their own ludicrous demands like they don't want to design fast degrading tyres, want 18 inch rims and what not. They should be catering to the requirements of formula one instead they want formula one to bend over backwards to have them as the tyr supplier.

 

I actually don't see that as a ludicrous demand. Michelin have seen the flak Pirelli have taken for their tyres, despite the fact they've been following the demands of the customer. Michelin could look daft if they want to market their road tyres as having both high performance and endurance while their F1 tyres shred themselves to pieces after 20 minutes.

[hogstar]

Porsche wouldn't place their cars on 13" wheels, so why does F1? Try a find a road car these days with wheels that small - you'll be struggling, so what relevance do they have? Michelin will have no reason to come back in to F1 and develop a size tyre that will never have relevance for a road car. 

[Mat13]

Porsche wouldn't place their cars on 13" wheels, so why does F1? Try a find a road car these days with wheels that small - you'll be struggling, so what relevance do they have? Michelin will have no reason to come back in to F1 and develop a size tyre that will never have relevance for a road car.

Mini. In fact, 13" is the biggest size for them, the smallest being 10". Handling wise, the 13" wheel was the worst thing done to a mini, the 10"s are much better.

Surely the best tyre size for F1 is the one that gives the best performance? I.e. 13"?

[Tapz63]

I wouldn't mind the move to the 18 inch rims, but I do understand the arguments against them.
Given that F1 is looking at lowering weight and increasing grip by 2017, the 18 inch rims will achieve the opposite.

Surprised to learn about the lower grip though. I guess it's the result of less movement in the side walls.

But by going with Michelin we will be Garuanteed more grip. Maybe Pirelli 18' will struggle but I heard on this forum that when they tested theirs with a Lotus it was quicker immediately.

[Kalmake]

Just make the wheels out of rubber too for more grip and less weight.

[TheRacingElf]

Who cars about how it looks?! If the 13" is faster we have to stay at 13" but if 18" is faster we have to go to that. F1 is about the fastest cars, not about the best looking cars..

[chipmcdonald]

 Frakking frak, people get your logic together, just because present road cars are in a *fashion* phase of preferring larger rims has zero bearing on whether the size is "in the past" or not!!!

 

SYNTAX COUNTS. 

 

If you want to the cars to LOOK different, fine, let's regulate things so they LOOK different, but stop this mindless "in the past" rhetoric that is devoid of meaning.

 

Does men having short hair mean you are "living in the past"?  Because at one time, having long hair was "new".  But now, does having long hair mean you are "living in the past"?  Even though in the past, it was not acceptable as it is now to have long hair in common work places?

 

That's FASHION.  Performance wise, larger profile tires makes sense, and there is no reason to create yet another boon doggle in forcing a ton of money to be spent on a suspension war. 

 

Additionally, I prefer in a destructive crash to have a smaller rim involved than a large one.  I'm not sure why nobody is discussing the safety aspect, a 17" rim with a deflated tire is going to go a lot farther than 13" with a deflated tire.  And in an odd-angle collision, it's safer to have more impact-absorbing rubber involved, instead of a larger metallic object.  Then there is the safety of visibility - if one looks at the video cockpit footage when Martin Brundle drove the test car, it's obvious forward sight lines are blocked.  Honda's "elephant ears" nose wings were a safety concern, but these more-sight reducing wheels are not?

 

Nonsense.

Edited by chipmcdonald, 06 June 2015 - 11:48.

[GTRacer]

CART ran with 15s and they looked damn good.

 

That's pricless. F1 is stuck in the past, so let's go for a look from CART. What was that 20 years ago?

 

FYI, The current Indycar still runs with 15" wheels.

 

 

Given that F1 is looking at lowering weight and increasing grip by 2017, the 18 inch rims will achieve the opposite.

The 18" tyres would generate more grip so making the switch would achieve that goal & not do the opposite. They do add a bit of weight (Think I read about 4 kilo's) but thats offset by the performance gains.

 

As I said already in this discussion the larger tyres are faster which is why other categories are moving to them.

[OO7]

I was quite confused to hear Martin Brundle state that the 18in low profile wheels obscured his field of view.  The current Pirelli slicks are 660mm in height and I was under the impression this height limit would remain for the 18in low profile tyres.  The wheel/tyre combination fitted to his GP2 car looked larger than 660mm, when compared to the 18in, low profile fitted Lotus.

Edited by OO7, 06 June 2015 - 12:33.