76 replies to this topic

[aramos]

That's not my point and I'm not saying he didn't do some great moves and demonstrated great race pace last season; he did. But where is his race craft this year? Forget about overtakes; his general race craft just hasn't been good lately. Suddenly his newbie teammate looks far more impressive. Does it mean Dan suddenly has no talent? No. It just means that every car is different and one driver can look much better in one car than he is in another. That's why I'm always wary of judging a driver by one season.

 

Wasn't it just two races ago people were talking of Kvyat being replaced at the end of the year because Ricciardo was murdering him? Now his newbie team mate looks more impressive because of one race that he's out qualified and out raced Dan? 

 

Yet, the other option everyone is floating Valtteri Bottas has been out qualified so far by Felipe Massa of all people 4-3 and not looked considerably faster. 

[aramos]

Why wouldn't his peak pace improve with a better feel for the car? It's hardly a far fetched assumption.

 

Sure, but thats assuming Ricciardo also doesn't make a step forward with more experience internal to the team. You can't just look at the mitigating factors for one driver without the other and make broad assumptions like that. People said the same thing about Raikkonen last year and he's still looking fairly off form. 

Edited by aramos, 09 June 2015 - 09:21.

[rasul]

Wasn't it just two races ago people were talking of Kvyat being replaced at the end of the year because Ricciardo was murdering him? Now his newbie team mate looks more impressive because of one race that he's out qualified and out raced Dan? 

 

Yet, the other option everyone is floating Valtteri Bottas has been out qualified so far by Felipe Massa of all people 4-3 and not looked considerably faster. 

I don't know what people were talking about--I can speak only for myself. And Kvyat was better in Monaco too. Anyway, what you say only proves my point: things can change fast in F1 and if Dan wants a better drive next year, he needs to step up.

 

As for Massa vs Bottas, when Massa isn't under pressure, he can be very fast in quali. I tend to believe him that his lack of confidence and support at Alonso's Ferrari made him look worse than he really is.  He'll never be a top driver, but he can be fast on a given day if he's in the right mindset.

[Jon83]

Who is a serious candidate for Ferrari though:

 

Hulkenberg

 

Perez

 

Bottas

 

Grosjean

 

Button

 

I'd be happy with Grosjean or Hulk.
 

[taran]

While RBR continue with a Renault power plant Dan has no chance of leading the team back up the ladder. Dan's a driver, not a mechanic/engineer/designer/magician!

 

You can't have it both ways. When he is winning races with a Renault its because he's a great driver but when he finishes outside the points, he has a bad car/engine?

Nobody is saying the driver designs the car but he is an integral part of the package. What separates the good from the great is their ability to lead a team, help them unlock the potential of the team. When people talk about Schumacher's greatness, its about lifting Benetton and revitalizing Ferrari, not winning a few races. Piquet gelling with BMW and pushing the Williams active ride, Alonso lifting Renault to a different level, dragging a shitbox Ferrari up the grid or being paid $$$ to help McLaren-Honda do the same.

 

The current RB-Renault might not be a winning combo but Ricciardo still needs to be their point man, the fastest RB on the grid and the one leading the other Renault cars over the line and the guy giving them input and inspiration....Kvyat has had a far more troubled time than Ricciardo but his confidence is apparently growing and he has now outperformed Ricciardo twice, once at a circuit where he won last year. That might not be the sign of the apocolypse for Ricciardo but it is a black mark if you are aspiring to greatness but get beaten by a year-2 driver new to the team....

 

Until Ricciardo shows he can lift a team too, he's not yet top drawer, team leader stuff and thus I'd put him at the rank just below the Hamiltons, Alonsos and Vettels of F1, par with Hulkenberg, Bottas, Grosjean, Maldonado, maybe Perez etc. as a driver who can win races with the right car but hasn't shown the consistency or sustained success to join the top drawer. As such, this year will be very important for him as he tries to establish himself.

 

YMMV. 

[aramos]

I don't know what people were talking about--I can speak only for myself. And Kvyat was better in Monaco too. Anyway, what you say only proves my point: things can change fast in F1 and if Dan wants a better drive next year, he needs to step up.

 

As for Massa vs Bottas, when Massa isn't under pressure, he can be very fast in quali. I tend to believe him that his lack of confidence and support at Alonso's Ferrari made him look worse than he really is.  He'll never be a top driver, but he can be fast on a given day if he's in the right mindset.

 

 

I wouldn't say he was really better at Monaco, Ricciardo out qualified Kvyat but Daniil got a better start and the race was neutralized by the 'have a position if you can pass but give it back otherwise' team orders. The only race Kvyat has looked categorically faster is Canada and even that was fairly close in the scheme of things.  That people are trying to suggest that outdoes his earlier dominance over Kvyat and a season of dominance over Vettel is rather ridiculous.

[aramos]

You can't have it both ways. When he is winning races with a Renault its because he's a great driver but when he finishes outside the points, he has a bad car/engine?

Nobody is saying the driver designs the car but he is an integral part of the package. What separates the good from the great is their ability to lead a team, help them unlock the potential of the team. When people talk about Schumacher's greatness, its about lifting Benetton and revitalizing Ferrari, not winning a few races. Piquet gelling with BMW and pushing the Williams active ride, Alonso lifting Renault to a different level, dragging a shitbox Ferrari up the grid or being paid $$$ to help McLaren-Honda do the same.

 

The current RB-Renault might not be a winning combo but Ricciardo still needs to be their point man, the fastest RB on the grid and the one leading the other Renault cars over the line and the guy giving them input and inspiration....Kvyat has had a far more troubled time than Ricciardo but his confidence is apparently growing and he has now outperformed Ricciardo twice, once at a circuit where he won last year. That might not be the sign of the apocolypse for Ricciardo but it is a black mark if you are aspiring to greatness but get beaten by a year-2 driver new to the team....

 

Until Ricciardo shows he can lift a team too, he's not yet top drawer, team leader stuff and thus I'd put him at the rank just below the Hamiltons, Alonsos and Vettels of F1, par with Hulkenberg, Bottas, Grosjean, Maldonado, maybe Perez etc. as a driver who can win races with the right car but hasn't shown the consistency or sustained success to join the top drawer. As such, this year will be very important for him as he tries to establish himself.

 

YMMV. 

 

The driver is always limited by the car. In reality driver skill is fairly stable, its just car performance that moves up and down.  I have little doubt in this years Ferrari Ricciardo would be showing similar performance levels to last year.

 

The catch all clause of 'the driver helps force car development' may have some relevance in terms of chassis, but they have absolutely no say when it comes to the engine. Its largely just down to luck who gets a performing power unit.

 

 

 

and thus I'd put him at the rank just below the Hamiltons, Alonsos and Vettels of F1, par with Hulkenberg, Bottas, Grosjean, Maldonado, maybe Perez etc. as a driver who can win races with the right car but hasn't shown the consistency or sustained success to join the top drawer. As such, this year will be very important for him as he tries to establish himself.

 

 

Ricciardo has 3x more race wins than all of those drivers combined.

 

 

That might not be the sign of the apocolypse for Ricciardo but it is a black mark if you are aspiring to greatness but get beaten by a year-2 driver new to the team....

 

Wait, didn't you just say he was a class below Vettel? Yet Vettel got destroyed over an entire season, not beaten in 2 races.

 

 

Until Ricciardo shows he can lift a team too, he's not yet top drawer, team leader stuff and thus I'd put him at the rank just below the Hamiltons, Alonsos and Vettels

 

Yeah, because those drivers 'lift' a team. Hamilton jumped ship to Mercedes after failing to win a title with McLaren for 4 years straight, Alonso failed to win a title for Ferrari and Vettel ran off to Ferrari the second Red Bull saw an inch of trouble, after being thoroughly beaten and his team mate taking all the wins available mind you.

 

The only driver of those who has even remotely built a team into success is Hamilton with Mercedes. You're effectively just selecting drivers who have been lucky to land at high level machinery.

Edited by aramos, 09 June 2015 - 10:26.

[fed up]

Dan has flattered to deceive. What we are seeing is a driver that is struggling to lead a team of RBR caliber and, while leading his team mate, he is miles off the ability of the departed Vettel. 

 

In fact, what this proves to me is that Vettel out witted the management team of RBR by giving the impression that the young upstart was the next coming while he was on the wane, lulling them into a false sense of security in committing Ricci to a long term contract and letting Seb walk down the road to pick up $$$ to demonstrate his true class. 

 

Ricci will do well as a support driver and could mature into a great driver in the future, but for now he's just not good enough IMO. 

[gowebber]

I wouldn't say he was really better at Monaco, Ricciardo out qualified Kvyat but Daniil got a better start and the race was neutralized by the 'have a position if you can pass but give it back otherwise' team orders. The only race Kvyat has looked categorically faster is Canada and even that was fairly close in the scheme of things.  That people are trying to suggest that outdoes his earlier dominance over Kvyat and a season of dominance over Vettel is rather ridiculous.

 

Pretty spot on there. Its laughable that some people are bagging Ricciardo after one race and conveniently ignoring the facts of how he has dominated his teammates over the last year and a half. Monaco was a non event given that you can't pass pretty much so whoever leads into T1 has the edge no matter how fast the other guy is behind. As for Canada DK barely outqualified RIcciardo with a much better setup. During the race Ricciardo was dragging around a heavy downforce setup so people are kidding themselves if they think this suddenly makes Kvyat the superior driver. You don't lose your utter domination and pace in 1 race. It going to be fun watching the DR haters get put back in their box after a few more races.

Edited by gowebber, 09 June 2015 - 10:32.

[sopa]

Wait... People are asking Ricciardo to "help Red Bull develop into a top team" to prove himself as a top driver? Yet Alonso, who is considered as the "most complete", failed to develop Ferrari to anywhere. If anything, they got worse ever since 2010.

 

I thought this "car development and team management" argument has already gone out of the window due to too many conflicting evidences, but I got fooled.

[gowebber]

Dan has flattered to deceive. What we are seeing is a driver that is struggling to lead a team of RBR caliber and, while leading his team mate, he is miles off the ability of the departed Vettel. 

 

In fact, what this proves to me is that Vettel out witted the management team of RBR by giving the impression that the young upstart was the next coming while he was on the wane, lulling them into a false sense of security in committing Ricci to a long term contract and letting Seb walk down the road to pick up $$$ to demonstrate his true class. 

 

Ricci will do well as a support driver and could mature into a great driver in the future, but for now he's just not good enough IMO. 

 

^^ Seriously?? My vote for dumbest post of the week. I suggest you go back a page  and read all the facts supporting why Ricciardo is a top driver.

Edited by gowebber, 09 June 2015 - 10:37.

[aramos]

Dan has flattered to deceive. What we are seeing is a driver that is struggling to lead a team of RBR caliber and, while leading his team mate, he is miles off the ability of the departed Vettel. 

 

In fact, what this proves to me is that Vettel out witted the management team of RBR by giving the impression that the young upstart was the next coming while he was on the wane, lulling them into a false sense of security in committing Ricci to a long term contract and letting Seb walk down the road to pick up $$$ to demonstrate his true class. 

 

Ricci will do well as a support driver and could mature into a great driver in the future, but for now he's just not good enough IMO. 

The fact he out scored Vettel so drastically last year makes this a fairly ridiculous point. Or wait, was that a conspiracy created by Vettel to trigger a contract exit clause which he tricked Red Bull with? Yeah that sounds reasonable.

[sopa]

I have no doubt Ricciardo would be an excellent choice by Ferrari.

 

It is easy to let yourself get fooled away by a handful of last races though. That's why we have so many debates on forums. People rate based on the last races and then discuss whether "this or that is any good". But as the saying goes - form is temporary, class is permanent. Ricciardo's underlying talent is still very good. He will beat Kvyat with relative ease over a full season, even though Kvyat himself is a decent driver and not as bad as made out to be after some early races.

 

As for actual rumours. I think the claims are right that there has been no solid evidence about Ric-Ferrari except "wishful thinking by fans". But who knows - as the season unfolds, maybe Arrivabene starts thinking about it. I am unsure about Ricciardo's contract situation though.

[aramos]

Pretty spot on there. Its laughable that some people are bagging Ricciardo after one race and conveniently ignoring the facts of how he has dominated his teammates over the last year and a half. Monaco was a non event given that you can't pass pretty much so whoever leads into T1 has the edge no matter how fast the other guy is behind. As for Canada DK barely outqualified RIcciardo with a much better setup. During the race Ricciardo was dragging around a heavy downforce setup so people are kidding themselves if they think this suddenly makes Kvyat the superior driver. You don't lose your utter domination and pace in 1 race. It going to be fun watching the DR haters get put back in their box after a few more races.

 

I've said it before, Ricciardo is really in a lose lose situation this year. Kvyat is a strong driver and beat Vergne on many occasions. (and lets be honest, Ricciardo wasn't always better than Vergne) so its fairly reasonable that Kvyat will also beat Ricciardo on occasion. Daniel is having to show his stuff in a car that at some tracks is barely points capable and on top of that has all of Vettel's fangroup looking for any crack they can try and exploit to suggest last year wasn't representative, because apparently being dominated by an average driver is better than being dominated by a great driver. 

 

Its utterly unrealistic to expect Ricciardo to be able to beat Kvyat every single race, even the holy red warrior Vettel has been beaten twice already by the utterly mediocre Raikkonen despite being undeniably a better driver.

Edited by aramos, 09 June 2015 - 10:39.

[aramos]

 

As for actual rumours. I think the claims are right that there has been no solid evidence about Ric-Ferrari except "wishful thinking by fans". But who knows - as the season unfolds, maybe Arrivabene starts thinking about it. I am unsure about Ricciardo's contract situation though.

 

I agree. There isn't even the most vague hint of Ricciardo going there. for Alonso-McLaren there was endless smoke before the announcement, as there was with Vettel-Ferrari. Yet there isn't even the most vague suggestion Ricciardo would jump ship and atleast moderate level evidence they're strongly considering Bottas.

[rasul]

The driver is always limited by the car. In reality driver skill is fairly stable, its just car performance that moves up and down.  I have little doubt in this years Ferrari Ricciardo would be showing similar performance levels to last year.

 

That's just a supposition on your part, nothing more. Driver's skill might be fairly stable, but it still doesn't change the fact that a suitable/unsuitable car makes a huge difference. Look at Kimi, for example. Yes, he's still being smashed in qualifying, even more drastically than he was smashed by Alonso (but that's because Vettel is likely the better qualifier than Alonso), but he no longer looks so hopeless in the race as he did in 2014. Same with Vettel.The Ferrari may not be such a great car as his Red Bulls were, but he clearly has confidence in the car, unlike last year, and looks more like the Vettel from his title-winning years. Or look at Alonso this year. If one discards the car, then it looks like Button is positively destroying Alonso this year. Do you really think the same would be happening if both were driving the Ferrari? I don't. 

Edited by rasul, 09 June 2015 - 10:47.

[YoungGun]

I've said it before, Ricciardo is really in a lose lose situation this year. Kvyat is a strong driver and beat Vergne on many occasions. (and lets be honest, Ricciardo wasn't always better than Vergne) so its fairly reasonable that Kvyat will also beat Ricciardo on occasion. Daniel is having to show his stuff in a car that at some tracks is barely points capable and on top of that has all of Vettel's fangroup looking for any crack they can try and exploit to suggest last year wasn't representative, because apparently being dominated by an average driver is better than being dominated by a great driver. 

 

Its utterly unrealistic to expect Ricciardo to be able to beat Kvyat every single race, even the holy red warrior Vettel has been beaten twice already by the utterly mediocre Raikkonen despite being undeniably a better driver.

 

 

Daniel deserves credit from this fan for his performances last year. This year he has shown that he is easily frustrated, and it would lead one to think he could not handle the pressure challenging for a title.

Edited by YoungGun, 09 June 2015 - 10:50.

[sopa]

Daniel deserves credit from this fan for his performances last year. This year he has shown that he is easily frustrated, and it would lead one to think he could not handle the pressure challenging for a title.

 

Being frustrated in a rubbish car doesn't tell much about managing the pressure in a title challenging car. They are completely different situations.

[fed up]

The fact he out scored Vettel so drastically last year makes this a fairly ridiculous point. Or wait, was that a conspiracy created by Vettel to trigger a contract exit clause which he tricked Red Bull with? Yeah that sounds reasonable.

 

Vettel gets out qualified and out raced by Ricci

Triggers exit clause

Earns $50m 1st year, £30m thereafter

Ricci and RBR fail to emulate 2014 form

Vettel back to his imperious best in a car he barely knows.

 

No conspiracy, but something doesn't quite add.  

[ConsiderAndGo]

Would love Ricciardo at Ferrari, but somehow with Vettel being there, I just don't see it happening.

[BigBadBless]

Vettel gets out qualified and out raced by Ricci

Triggers exit clause

Earns $50m 1st year, £30m thereafter

Ricci and RBR fail to emulate 2014 form

Vettel back to his imperious best in a car he barely knows.

 

No conspiracy, but something doesn't quite add.  

 

The thing is, his 'imperious best' looks good because he is handily beating Raikonnen. But look at what Alonso did to Kimi in the same car, it was utter destruction, it was the biggest humiliation of a WDC I can remember. Is it not more likely that Kimi is simply not as good as we expect?

Edited by BigBadBless, 09 June 2015 - 11:01.

[rasul]

The thing is, his 'imperious best' looks good because he is handily beating Raikonnen. But look at what Alonso did to Kimi in the same car, it was utter destruction, it was the biggest humiliation of a WDC I can remember. Is it not more likely that Kimi is simply not as good as we expect?

Actually, so far Vettel is beating Kimi in qualifying with a bigger margin than Alonso did last year--and that's in the car that Kimi hated. 

[aramos]

Vettel gets out qualified and out raced by Ricci
Triggers exit clause
Earns $50m 1st year, £30m thereafter
Ricci and RBR fail to emulate 2014 form
Vettel back to his imperious best in a car he barely knows.

No conspiracy, but something doesn't quite add.

Or Raikkonen is simply not as strong as Ricciardo and Ricciardo would be matching Vettel in this years Ferrari too.

Seems much more simple than relying on conspiracy to explain Vettel being beaten.

[aramos]

Daniel deserves credit from this fan for his performances last year. This year he has shown that he is easily frustrated, and it would lead one to think he could not handle the pressure challenging for a title.

Vettel seemed very frustrated last year despite having a very good race winning car. Does that mean he can't handle the pressure of a title fight?

[aramos]

That's just a supposition on your part, nothing more. Driver's skill might be fairly stable, but it still doesn't change the fact that a suitable/unsuitable car makes a huge difference. Look at Kimi, for example. Yes, he's still being smashed in qualifying, even more drastically than he was smashed by Alonso (but that's because Vettel is likely the better qualifier than Alonso), but he no longer looks so hopeless in the race as he did in 2014. Same with Vettel.The Ferrari may not be such a great car as his Red Bulls were, but he clearly has confidence in the car, unlike last year, and looks more like the Vettel from his title-winning years. Or look at Alonso this year. If one discards the car, then it looks like Button is positively destroying Alonso this year. Do you really think the same would be happening if both were driving the Ferrari? I don't.

Alonso has actually been ahead of Button in practically every race, even despite qualifying problems, that's not a very good example.

And yes, I do think Alonso would be beating Raikkonen by more than Vettel currently is. No doubt in my mind.

[aramos]

That's just a supposition on your part, nothing more. Driver's skill might be fairly stable, but it still doesn't change the fact that a suitable/unsuitable car makes a huge difference. Look at Kimi, for example. Yes, he's still being smashed in qualifying, even more drastically than he was smashed by Alonso (but that's because Vettel is likely the better qualifier than Alonso), but he no longer looks so hopeless in the race as he did in 2014. Same with Vettel.The Ferrari may not be such a great car as his Red Bulls were, but he clearly has confidence in the car, unlike last year, and looks more like the Vettel from his title-winning years. Or look at Alonso this year. If one discards the car, then it looks like Button is positively destroying Alonso this year. Do you really think the same would be happening if both were driving the Ferrari? I don't.

Alonso has actually been ahead of Button in practically every race, even despite qualifying problems, that's not a very good example.

And yes, I do think Alonso would be beating Raikkonen by more than Vettel currently is. No doubt in my mind.

[Gilles4Ever]

This thread is discussing everything except the title, most of what is being discussed can go in the Silly Season thread.