175 replies to this topic

[KiloWatt]

I'm not going to pretend to dislike the current dominance of the team I support.  Especially after the first few years, filled with heart break and "too many chefs" jokes.  Vindication for the faith is sweet and I enjoy it the majority of Sundays.

 

But it's not hard to see that things cannot continue like this forever.  And it really is almost impossible for Renault and Honda to catch up, given the very tight rules around the engines.  It's just not sporting.  It could also easily have been my team getting badly beaten every other sunday.  They should be allowed to catch up.

 

Before I continue, obviously Ferrari managed to do it.  And conspiracy theories aside, it's within the realm of possibility that the problems they faced last year that kept them from being competitive was more easily overcome.  Or they better understood their problems.  Or whatever.  Anyway, the road to recovery seems to be much harder for R and H.

 

Apart from the obvious desire to cling to any advantage Mercedes have, this isn't the first time this has happened.  Twice in the past, during the V8 era, Renault was allowed to catch up.  To the tune of 4 WDC and WCC, it transpired.  Sure, the titles weren't all down to Renault, but it sure didn't hurt, did it...  Especially the years it was close.  So Merc/Ferrari may be weary of something similar happening.  Unsporting?  Sure.  Understandable?  Absolutely.  After all, everybody knew what they were getting in to, when the rules were finalised.  Right?

 

Still, something needs to be done and everyone knows it.  But there must be something in it for Merc and Ferrari, who have played by the book (as far as we know) and just did a better job.

 

My proposal is, allow Renault and Honda to make changes freely.  But every time something outside the homologation specifications are changed, DQ the highest finishing car for that race, but obligate them to finish (barring any mechanical issue).  That way, the team cannot win the race in which the change is introduced and the points they will earn in the race will be more than halved.  This penalty would hopefully discourage free spending.  It should also allow them to catch up within a reasonable amount of time.

 

One can take it one step further and open it up to everyone.  I also propose a time limit on this concession.  Say, 1 season to start with.

[johnwilliamdavies]

Get rid of their engineers who are plainly not good enough at building a Formula 1 spec hybrid engine.

 

And then employ engineers who are good at building a Formula 1 spec hybrid engine

[Marklar]

Unfreezing maybe? (And no, it wont cost much more than now)

[Rasputin]

What makes anyone think that either Renault or Honda are even capable of catching up?

 

Daimler threw in the kitchen sink behind MHPE, a reported 400 MEUR to get ahead, there is just no way to emulate that at a defendable cost.

[V8 Fireworks]

I think Honda and Renault should be allowed to use NOS 

 

OK in all seriousness since Ferrari and Mercedes have a say in the rules, they have no incentive to help Renault or Honda in any way, so they won't........

[fed up]

Renault have benefited from years of dominance themselves - it is the way of F1

[CurbPainter]

Mercedes put a lot of money and resources into developing a good engine.

 

Renault isn't willing or able to spend a huge amount of money into developing their engines.

 

I have heard Lauda say, "let Renault quit and we will just have, like in the 70s, almost the whole grid with Mercedes engines (Ferrari was the only one with their own engines back then)"...it's simply a dog-eat-dog corporate mentality which is also playing behind the scenes and Mercedes would love the exposure of having almost a whole grid of Mercedes engines.

 

Why punish Mercedes for willing to put in the money and energy ?

 

Who cares if we will end up with only Ferrari and Mercedes engines in the end, it will probably be even better for the competition.

[Fisico54]

Allow Renault to dictate the engine formula they want (under threat of them leaving).

Oh wait that's what F1 did with the current engines

[Ferrari2183]

Just unfreeze. If they can't catch up then then it's on them and not the regulations.

 

The idea that only Renault and Honda be able to make changes is absurd... They could end up leapfrogging Mercedes and Ferrari who cannot make changes.

[onewingedangel]

Scrap the engine tokens and allow free development aligned to 5 engines per year before penalties, which should be grid penalties only - no drive throughs.

 

There should be plenty of scope for them to close the gap to Mercedes as diminishing returns comes into effect. Once there is little development left for Mercedes/Ferrari freeze the engines and allow a limited amount of equalisation for Renault and Honda to balance them out as there was for the Renault V8.

[Atreiu]

Permanent unfreeze.

[V8 Fireworks]

Scrap the engine tokens and allow free development aligned to 5 engines per year before penalties,

 

Why 5 engines?

 

It's GP racing.  The engines should only have to last for one race.  If you want a test of engine reliability, they should go race at Le Mans where the engine should be built to last for 24 hours.

 

 The idea that this is "engine cost cutting" when customer power units are more expensive than ever is beyond preposterous.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 17 June 2015 - 14:19.

[cas422]

In my opinion the short answer to the OP is no. No matter how you slice it, it is fundamentally unfair to Mercedes and Ferrari to change the rules after the fact to allow the others to catch up. So my UNFAIR solution is they should scrap the token system and change the engine limit rule to 5 or even 6 engines for the greater good of the sport. I don't think a 2 engine formula 1 works. It sounds like a big ask for Mercedes and Ferrari to compete with each other while simultaneously powering all 10 ( soon to be 11 or 12?) teams. 

[Christbiscuit]

Scrap the existing engine regulations, say you can use two engines per year and they can be any configuration you want once it runs on petrol and you don't use more than x litres of petrol per race. Let the engineers figure out the rest.

[vowcartaGP]

Completely open development.

"But it will cost too much!" Yes, that's why the FIA should have set an engine price cap for engine customers so the manufacturers take the financial hit.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

There is no fair way to allow them to catch up, if they unfreeze the engines then that should apply to ALL the PU manufactures, other wise when do you stop tinkering with the rules...

 

They should leave the rules as is, but if the Renault/Honda PU problem is because of a bad PU design and they can prove it by using a independent specialist then they should be allowed to change the frozen PU design...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 17 June 2015 - 14:51.

[mclarensmps]

Let anyone do whatever they want with the engines. 

[KingTiger]

No there is not. Tokens are the best way to do it. Right now Renault are not willing to invest enough to fix their engine on their own, and Honda are just a big mess.

The last time we had "equalization" Mercedes ended up having to run 15-20 L more fuel than Renault at the start. Right now there is drama about teams possibly underfueling by only a few L.

Think about that next time you praise Red Bull.

Completely open development.

"But it will cost too much!" Yes, that's why the FIA should have set an engine price cap for engine customers so the manufacturers take the financial hit.

The manufacturers are just going to leave the sport then. They're not in F1 to subsidize badly run privateers.

[MikeTekRacing]

the only fair way is for mercedes/ferrari to approve a changed set of rules.

 

If current situation will lead to the death of F1 those 2 will approve. Otherwise, tough luck for the others

[RockBrocaine]

For those saying unfreezing, to what level then? Completely opening the gates for a total PU revamp would without a doubt increase cost for customers and flying the face of cost saving. I would say any extensive revamp beyond the agreed upon token allocation should result in a steep penalty such losing an engine for the season or depending on the token worth changed points could be deducted.

[Gyno]

Just let the teams use what ever engine they want to use.

Enough already with this bullshit.

 

No fuel limits no Rev limits no x amount of engines per season crap.

 

Simple easy quick solution to the engine problem, also would be A Lot cheaper then the current PU's are.

We would also get some exitment back into F1.

 

Just because there are tokens doesn't mean teams aren't spending **** loads of money on developing them.

[Dunc]

No, quite frankly, there isn't. 

 

You could get Cosworth or a similar company to produce a standard PU which any team could use should the one supplied to them not be up to scratch while the manufacturer gets on with development but the chances of that happening are slim, to say the very least.

[scheivlak]

Completely open development.

"But it will cost too much!" Yes, that's why the FIA should have set an engine price cap for engine customers so the manufacturers take the financial hit.

Which would mean that they would all retire from F1 sooner or later (very soon in the case of Renault)

[DampMongoose]

Other than through hard work, no, it'd be on a par with making Usain Bolt wear an orthopaedic shoe otherwise.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Fair way?

 

Such a conversation between we and Mercedes is imaginable:

 

We: Please agree to allow in season development for power units in 2016.

Mercedes: We afraid of costs and blah blah blah

We: We will pay every extra cost that you will invest on your power unit

Mercedes: The costs will reach to the sky blah blah blah

We: Shut up, we will pay it with the help of Ferrari, Honda and Renault.

Mercedes: but the costs.

We: Shut up. It is done deal.

Mercedes: OK

 

Edited by RYARLE, 17 June 2015 - 16:28.

[MikeV1987]

Allow Renault to dictate the engine formula they want (under threat of them leaving).

Oh wait that's what F1 did with the current engines

 

[ray b]

get a rolling dyno

test each car on it with gas power only

allow the addition of el HP so all car have same at the wheels power

 

if M-B get 700 gas hp they get 100el HP added

if the red guys get 680 they get 120el HP added

if the frogs only make 650 they get 150 el hp added

if honda gets 640 they get 160 el hp added

 

eazy cheap and we get real dyno numbers too

[ViMaMo]

Unfreezing and also implement the following rule. Freeze after couple of seasons.

[Bleu]

For mid-season development, token system

 

Winning engine 0.1 tokens

Next highest 0.2 tokens

Next highest 0.3 tokens

Next highest 0.4 tokens

 

Apart from Malaysia, the order has been Mercedes-Ferrari-Renault-Honda in every race so far. So Mercedes would have got 0.8, Ferrari 1.3, Renault 2.1 and Honda 2.8 with their performances to date.

[Reemann]

Yeah so when RedBull was dominating and the competition weren't able to catch up (even with secret tire tests in Barcelona during which drivers were using plain white helmets), the rules were changed, tire specs were changed engine spec were changed and occasionally they were accused of cheating.

 

Why not now? Mercedes is dominating even more than RedBull ever has, all of a sudden it's all good. Rules are rules and the others just aren't competent enough.

[Tourgott]

Let them use what ever engine they want. V8, V10, V6. They are obvisouly not interested in cost cutting solutions, so why to worry about the costs of a free engine formula? Anything is better than the current situation. If the V8 beats the V6, fine. They might develop a 1200 hps V6. If this beats the V8, fine. We might get a V10 with energy recovery system or what ever. This would be real innovative and the actual pinnacle of technology not like today.

[quaint]

Changing the spec would help manufacturer's minimize their deficits. Specify the maximum allowed power output of the whole power unit, and not the means to achieve it (including refueling) – so engines that are less efficient aren't totally helpless on power tracks; the difference extra fuel weight causes ought to be smaller.

[Mat13]

get a rolling dyno
test each car on it with gas power only
allow the addition of el HP so all car have same at the wheels power

if M-B get 700 gas hp they get 100el HP added
if the red guys get 680 they get 120el HP added
if the frogs only make 650 they get 150 el hp added
if honda gets 640 they get 160 el hp added

eazy cheap and we get real dyno numbers too

A little like BoP in WEC. That's all very well, but where does this extra horsepower come from? The only cheap way to do it would be peg Mercedes and Ferrari, and-Bloody Hell- Renault as well, to Honda's level. And that's not fair at all, and we end up with F1 cars a second and a half slower than they could be.

There is no fair way, considering the work and expense Mercedes have gone to to earn their advantage. Frankly, if Ferrari can catch up, so can Renault. No-one was wanting aero concessions for every team that wasn't Red Bull three years ago.

[MustangSally]

Excellent topic.

 

I have no idea what the answer is, since the current formula appears to be beyond some manufacturers' resources/budget/talents.

 

It didn't bother me when everyone in F1  had a Ford engine or Jap tyres.

 

Surely it's better that the losers pull out now and costs go down.

Edited by MustangSally, 17 June 2015 - 17:35.

[Tapz63]

They should stop the engine homologation process and allow free reign on developments to the engines. Also more in season testing, and if Manor and Force India can't afford to go so be it.

[chhatra]

Why not just give them a few extra tokens based on engine performance. For example best engine gets 10 tokens, second best 12, 3rd best 15, and last 20. I'm sure the FIA would be able to quite easily measure engine performance.

At the end of each year this could be measured so if one engine overtakes another, the would get less tokens the following year.

Similar to how MotoGP give Ducati and Suzuki softer tyres. Keeps the show interesting but the fastest bikes/riders still come out on top.

[Talisman]

Honda have already said they're happy with the token system and that its on them to catch up within the system.  They need time to sort out their PU, they can't compensate for having only had half the development time the others had.

Renault on the other hand need to ask themselves what they want from F1, if they are serious they need to invest more and set out a clear plan. 

For both teams the token system is flexible enough, especially over the winter break, to make enough changes to sort out the weak points of their PUs.

[phoenix101]

If they haven't already (can't remember), they need to institute the seasonal fuel allotment. Based upon your position in the championship, teams should have fuel added or subtracted. The fuel flow limit remains unchanged. 

 

This buys them time to develop, and teams will all be running diferent strategies throughout the year.

Edited by phoenix101, 17 June 2015 - 19:26.

[Seanspeed]

I applaud your mentality OP and offer absolutely no good solution. It's a really tough situation.

I'm almost at the point where I think a simple HP limit might be necessary. It wouldn't solve everything, but might make things *more* equal while still leaving scope for certain manufacturers to gain a competitive advantage.

Edited by Seanspeed, 17 June 2015 - 19:35.

[ANF]

Is there a good reason for the FIA to intervene to allow Renault and Honda to catch up? (Maybe this should go in the Stupid Questions Thread?)

[Mat13]

The Show, darling, the Show!

[kvyatfan]

For mid-season development, token system

 

Winning engine 0.1 tokens

Next highest 0.2 tokens

Next highest 0.3 tokens

Next highest 0.4 tokens

 

Apart from Malaysia, the order has been Mercedes-Ferrari-Renault-Honda in every race so far. So Mercedes would have got 0.8, Ferrari 1.3, Renault 2.1 and Honda 2.8 with their performances to date.

 

I think this is the only fair way, with some tweaks.

[ANF]

The Show, darling, the Show!

Oh, right, I forgot. For a while I thought F1 was about competition.

[teejay]

We have had power and reliability disparities since day 1

 

Why is this such an issue right now?

[Rakaman]

Just allow rocket engines.

 

Also machine guns. 

[lbennie]

We have had power and reliability disparities since day 1

 

Why is this such an issue right now?

 

Because the regulations as they stand make it next to impossible to catch up.

 

Ferrari who did an amazing job over the winter, are still a huge way off merc.

[f1RacingForever]

Increase the token allocation. When teams have spent hundreds of millions developing these engines, whats a few million more really? If teams have the money and want to spend it i don't see the problem. If teams can't spend it on engines they will spend it some place else. All these cost saving measures and yet teams are spending more than ever. Teams will spend what they can afford. I imagine it's always been that way.

[KingTiger]

Increase the token allocation. When teams have spent hundreds of millions developing these engines, whats a few million more really? If teams have the money and want to spend it i don't see the problem. If teams can't spend it on engines they will spend it some place else. All these cost saving measures and yet teams are spending more than ever. Teams will spend what they can afford. I imagine it's always been that way.

 

Teams are spending a lot less than what they did in the early 00s, and it's important to keep the small teams somewhat competitive by decreasing the impact of limitless spending like Ferrari are doing. 

[lbennie]

Teams are spending a lot less than what they did in the early 00s, and it's important to keep the small teams somewhat competitive by decreasing the impact of limitless spending like Ferrari are doing. 

 

But small teams (midfield) are less competitive now than they ever were back then, and teams are still dropping out too.

[f1RacingForever]

Teams are spending a lot less than what they did in the early 00s, and it's important to keep the small teams somewhat competitive by decreasing the impact of limitless spending like Ferrari are doing. 

I dont think that is true. Mclaren had a larger budget in 2014 than any previous season. Mercedes spent a record $325 million euro in 2013. It is rather crazy.

 

http://www.jamesalle...revious-season/

http://www.pitpass.c...-to-record-325m