166 replies to this topic

[Graveltrappen]

http://www.gpupdate....ake-f1-by-2020/

This was touched on yesterday in the London Eprix thread, but I think it warrants its own discussion.

When Formula E was announced it was ridiculed by many, and still some of the gimmicks like the replay music and fanboost are maybe requiring some tweeks (or maybe not..) but slowly the series is getting more credit and Car Makers coming on board to develop the E-Tech. After the initial 5-year evolution hopefully the swapping of cars will be in the past.

F1 has lost sight of what it wants to be, whereas FE knows what it wants to be and has a map to go there, though is willing to take advice and suggestions if a different route is required.

The problems with Turn 1 at Battersea for example... Rectified with a barrier and now a repair without too much squabbling. In F1 they'd still be having meetings over this.

As a complete side note; I was exiting a roundabout outside of Edinburgh yesterday and a Electric BMW absolutely shot past with plenty of power under his/her right foot. This electric technology isn't to be sniffed at.... I'd love to see 20/30 years down the line how many petrol cars remain. Maybe they'll be loads... But maybe not! The future is a-coming... Is that future Formula E?

Flash in the pan? Or the new premier relevant racing series?

[tmekt]

Wouldn't surprise me if someday the two series merged to a completely electric F1. Obviously not in the nearest future but somewhere in the next 10-20 years.

 

The industry trend is going to be more and more about electric power in the future anyway. 

Edited by tmekt, 28 June 2015 - 10:09.

[HP]

Depends what people want. A race of the duration of F1 isn't on the cards anytime soon. Mind you them doing 24 hours LeMans.

[Guizotia]

Who is branson?

[superden]

Maybe, times change and things move on.

I won't be one of the followers though. Buzzing, battery powered and silent cars, whilst interesting from an engineering perspective, just have zero visceral appeal. I just don't find it interesting.

Edited by superden, 28 June 2015 - 20:56.

[midgrid]

Who is branson?

Richard Branson, successful British businessman and entrepreneur who owns the Virgin group of companies (and hence Virgin Racing).

[KWSN - DSM]

FE will never in any way, shape or form surpass F1.

 

[SlickMick]

Within 20 years I expect F1 will orchestrate a "merger" with FE when it realises it's days are numbered and try and hold back FE - not the technology but the formula itself. This ploy will fail and F1 will end up marketing itself as "real racing with real engines" to an ever dwindling audience.
Enjoy it while you still can.

[george1981]

F1 is at a low point at the moment and Formula E is still in it's honeymoon period and enjoying lots of publicity. I've seen a few series been proposed or even run for a few years and then slowly wither and die. At the moment I'm not sure Formula E will still be here in 5 years.

[thegamer23]

I think that a comparison is unfair and uneccessary for Formula E itself at the moment.

Let this serie grow without pressure.

Edited by thegamer23, 28 June 2015 - 10:45.

[Muppetmad]

When it comes to what I'm looking for in motor sport - exciting racing amongst talented drivers on interesting circuits - I'd say Formula E has already surpassed F1.

[Nonesuch]

I think that a comparison is unfair and unnecessary for Formula E itself at the moment.

 

Agreed, let them do their own thing and we'll see if they can keep this up for five or ten years and where they'll be by then.

[SlickMick]

When it comes to what I'm looking for in motor sport - exciting racing amongst talented drivers on interesting circuits - I'd say Formula E has already surpassed F1.

If that's the criteria then GP2 is also already much much better than F1.
Ultimately the future wont be decided by us punters, but by the money men, marketeers and manufacturers. It's only a matter of time - Branson's a clever guy but as usual with him everything is tomorrow. Five years no way, but it will happen eventually.

[Dolph]

http://www.gpupdate....ake-f1-by-2020/

This was touched on yesterday in the London Eprix thread, but I think it warrants its own discussion.

When Formula E was announced it was ridiculed by many, and still some of the gimmicks like the replay music and fanboost are maybe requiring some tweeks (or maybe not..) but slowly the series is getting more credit and Car Makers coming on board to develop the E-Tech. After the initial 5-year evolution hopefully the swapping of cars will be in the past.

F1 has lost sight of what it wants to be, whereas FE knows what it wants to be and has a map to go there, though is willing to take advice and suggestions if a different route is required.

The problems with Turn 1 at Battersea for example... Rectified with a barrier and now a repair without too much squabbling. In F1 they'd still be having meetings over this.

As a complete side note; I was exiting a roundabout outside of Edinburgh yesterday and a Electric BMW absolutely shot past with plenty of power under his/her right foot. This electric technology isn't to be sniffed at.... I'd love to see 20/30 years down the line how many petrol cars remain. Maybe they'll be loads... But maybe not! The future is a-coming... Is that future Formula E?

Flash in the pan? Or the new premier relevant racing series?

 

 

I think we have to wait til more money and manufacturers come into the sport. Then we have the same problems and politics as F1. There will be one team dominating and the rest lagging behind etc.

[Dolph]

When it comes to what I'm looking for in motor sport - exciting racing amongst talented drivers on interesting circuits - I'd say Formula E has already surpassed F1.

 

I'm sorry, but "interesting circuits"?

[Knot]

Formula E won't exist in 5 years, much less approach the populairty of F1.

[Spillage]

We've heard it all before - remember when A1GP was the new F1? I think we're journeying inexorably towards a fully-electric F1 which will, presumably, leave Formula E redundant at some point. But the chances of Formula E surpassing F1 in terms of viewing figures or speed are, I'd wager, close to 0%. 

[anneomoly]

We've heard it all before - remember when A1GP was the new F1? I think we're journeying inexorably towards a fully-electric F1 which will, presumably, leave Formula E redundant at some point. But the chances of Formula E surpassing F1 in terms of viewing figures or speed are, I'd wager, close to 0%. 

 

I'm not sure about that. It ought to be able to have one formula set up for quick turnaround street circuits, and one track weekend formula without too much overlap. The needs of each formula and the direction each one needs to take for the different circuit types should keep them apart if it comes to that.

 

But for now they need to leave each other alone and stop taking pot shots. Neither is both healthy and established.

[P123]

Formula E has proven to be a fun formula with a strong field of drivers (most ex-F1). You don't need ear bursting engines or cars laden with downforce so they can break lap records to create a spectacle or entertaining racing, as some of the F1 whining bores misguidedly think.

But... it won't surpass F1. It will only do that when the top drivers aspire to be in it over F1, when it's viewing figures increase dramatically, and when it's spoken about in the wider press for more than just being all electric. It has it's niche. And Branson won't be around in 5 years in it anyway, he'll be on to his next project.

[Imperial]

FE will disappear, but not for any reason to do with the cars. Money will kill it, as killed all those other series.

Formula One won't go electric in our lifetime.

[DanardiF1]

I think we have to wait til more money and manufacturers come into the sport. Then we have the same problems and politics as F1. There will be one team dominating and the rest lagging behind etc.

 

The manufacturer input and funding is building, Branson's Virgin outfit having just announced a partnership with Citroen who have already been developing a bespoke powertrain for the FE car...

 

I'm surprised Nissan haven't looked at it yet, though with Renault being involved that may be the group's involvement covered. Once the powertrain rules open up more I wouldn't be surprised to see BMW and perhaps Tesla being interested as well.

 

It may not attract the typical manufacturers interested in motorsport programs, but it will attract big carmakers who have plans for or already have a range of fully electric cars.

[Nemo1965]

It is an intriguing thought by Branson... however, FE has a benefit with a kind of diminishing returns. The benefit is the cars are slow, you can pretty much put out a track anywhere... even in London on a glorified (or not so glorified) cycle-path... The better the electric engines get, the faster the cars get, the less improvised tracks they can drive, the fewer cities will be interested or able to organise a race...

 

So at a certain moment, if the electric engines keep developing 'enough', FE will have to go to FIA-certified courses for safety's sake... I don't think the series will survive that. If it will, then it will become a serious contender for F1, because manufacturers could still show their competitive skills in a fairly standardised series... something that impossible in F1 now...

Edited by Nemo1965, 28 June 2015 - 11:23.

[SealTheDiffuser]

F1 will become FE so either they will be merged or stay separate racing series.

 

standalone FE will never surpass F1 in its popularity.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

He should learn from sporting history.  Part of the reason the USFL and WCW (although this isn't a sport but the lessons are still there) went out of business was because they were too focused on beating their established competitors.  

 

Formula E should always aim to be an alternative to Formula 1, not trying to overtake or destroy it; it just won't happen.  

[krapmeister]

Why do people think Tesla will be involved? Afaik Apple doesn't sponsor or get involved with anything other than Apple...

[Muppetmad]

If that's the criteria then GP2 is also already much much better than F1.

I agree in the sense of exciting racing, although GP2 naturally suffers the same circuit issues as F1. Regardless, that says a lot about the current state of F1. That's my criteria at least.

 

I'm sorry, but "interesting circuits"?

Yup, I mean that. Unlike F1, FE is doing some proper, challenging and bumpy street circuits. We've had races at, among other places, Monte Carlo, Long Beach and central Moscow this year. Whilst Bernie has been salivating in recent years about a New Jersey race because of its offer of a backdrop of Manhattan, Formula E has - in its first year - had a race passing by St Basil's Cathedral. So, I stand by that - these are interesting circuits. Even Battersea Park is interesting in its own way.

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 June 2015 - 11:49.

[ANF]

Space tourism will surpass commercial aviation within ten years...

[BRG]

FE has a long way to go to even become a credible race series.  Slow cars that will only run for a few laps on stupidly tight and narrow tracks (with the honourable exception of Long Beach) are hardly even in the same class as F3, let alone proper full-fat racing series.  

 

Sir Richard Branson may say what he wants, but he is a master or promotion and marketing, not a technological or racing expert. He is bigging up 'his' racing series.

 

One day?  Maybe the top series will be electric, who knows, but technology needs a massive step forward to match current ICE standards.

[H0R]

Internal combustion engines are 20. century technology. Sooner or later they will be gone, and probably much sooner than the naysaysers expect. How you'd call aen electric rading series doesn't matter, but yes - it will be the successor to F1 as we know it. And it might even be Formula E.

Edited by H0R, 28 June 2015 - 12:29.

[Jordan44]

I agree in the sense of exciting racing, although GP2 naturally suffers the same circuit issues as F1. Regardless, that says a lot about the current state of F1. That's my criteria at least.

 

Yup, I mean that. Unlike F1, FE is doing some proper, challenging and bumpy street circuits. We've had races at, among other places, Monte Carlo, Long Beach and central Moscow this year. Whilst Bernie has been salivating in recent years about a New Jersey race because of its offer of a backdrop of Manhattan, Formula E has - in its first year - had a race passing by St Basil's Cathedral. So, I stand by that - these are interesting circuits. Even Battersea Park is interesting in its own way.

 

There is nothing remotely enjoyable about circuits like that, people just get excited because it goes around popular locations, but the racing is not usually good. Killing off the traditional racing tracks would be a disaster. Melbourne and Abu Dhabi are examples of what street circuits should be like. Not tight cramped processions.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 12:32.

[Jordan44]

Internal combustion engines are 20. century technology. Sooner or later they will be gone, and probably much sooner than the naysaysers expect. How you'd call aen electric rading series doesn't matter, but yes - it will be the successor to F1 as we know it. And it might even be Formula E.

 

I don't agree. Audi have been able to produce synthetic diesel. If they could make these feasible, the internal combustion engine lives for a great deal longer. There's no reason at all why the ICE will die if we find a suitable fuel. Doesn't even have to be renewable, as long as it's around for a long time then people will favour it over electric. Electric cars are still a long way from being a suitable replacement to the cars of today.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 12:36.

[PayasYouRace]

Internal combustion engines are 20. century technology. Sooner or later they will be gone, and probably much sooner than the naysaysers expect. How you'd call aen electric rading series doesn't matter, but yes - it will be the successor to F1 as we know it. And it might even be Formula E.

 

To be fair, electric motors are also 20th century technology.

 

 

There is nothing remotely enjoyable about circuits like that, people just get excited because it goes around popular locations, but the racing is not usually good. Killing off the traditional racing tracks would be a disaster. Melbourne and Abu Dhabi are examples of what street circuits should be like. Not tight cramped processions.

 

The cars are currently too slow to race on such long circuits. It wouldn't look right. Maybe in future the series can expand as performance goes up.

 

Though Abu Dhabi is not a street circuit at all.

[Jordan44]

To be fair, electric motors are also 20th century technology.

 

 

 

The cars are currently too slow to race on such long circuits. It wouldn't look right. Maybe in future the series can expand as performance goes up.

 

Though Abu Dhabi is not a street circuit at all.

 

I meant Singapore, sorry.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 12:40.

[Gyno]

FE is just a gimmick nothing else.

 

Will never become even close to what F1 is now.

[Fatgadget]

FE is just a gimmick nothing else.

 

Will never become even close to what F1 is now.

And you that how exactly? 

[Jordan44]

And you that how exactly? 

 

Formula E needs to gain around 350 million viewers to match F1's global viewership. How are they going to achieve that exactly? It's even available more freely than F1, online stream, mostly FTA TV, and at the minute the viewing figures have been very disappointing.

 

Plus with it being a more open series next year, I feel like we're going to see something reminiscent of F1 right now, one team will be dominant. The racing in FE right now is as good as we'll ever see it, I fear. Next year it'll flop.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 12:44.

[scheivlak]

But the chances of Formula E surpassing F1 in terms of viewing figures or speed are, I'd wager, close to 0%. 

Maybe one shouldn't be that sure about the viewing figures. Watching F1 is an acquired taste for a complex sport. Pay TV and/or pay per view - which is the way F1 is developing more and more - make it less easy for a new public to acquire that taste.

 

If Formula E stays - or will be - free-to-air provided by more and more interested broadcasters and free live streaming on the internet, while F1 closes itself up behind pay-TV and PPV Formula E might soon get closer and closer in attendance figures.

[BRG]

To be fair, electric motors are also 20th century technology.

 

To be even fairer, both electric and internal combustion motors are 19th century technology.

 

I want to see a steam powered racing series - now that would be something to see!  17th century technology of course...

[scheivlak]

 It's even available more freely than F1, online stream, mostly FTA TV, 

 

 

Not available yet in e.g. the Netherlands. I think that will change soon.

[Muppetmad]

There is nothing remotely enjoyable about circuits like that, people just get excited because it goes around popular locations, but the racing is not usually good. Killing off the traditional racing tracks would be a disaster. Melbourne and Abu Dhabi are examples of what street circuits should be like. Not tight cramped processions.

You'd have a point if the racing in FE was processional - but it hasn't been. The racing perhaps usually isn't good on such circuits, but for Formula E the nature of the cars are allowing the racing to be good - it's providing both the challenge of street circuit racing and exciting action for the viewer.

 

Killing off traditional racing tracks would indeed be a disaster. Thankfully, that wasn't my suggestion for F1. Would FE circuits work for F1? Largely no. But if you compare the two series with F1 as the standard of measure, of course FE will lose out. Plus, if you don't want processions, F1 clearly doesn't fare well - overtaking at Singapore is always at a premium, if not impossible.

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 June 2015 - 12:52.

[Jordan44]

Maybe one shouldn't be that sure about the viewing figures. Watching F1 is an acquired taste for a complex sport. Pay TV and/or pay per view - which is the way F1 is developing more and more - make it less easy for a new public to acquire that taste.

 

If Formula E stays - or will be - free-to-air provided by more and more interested broadcasters and free live streaming on the internet, while F1 closes itself up behind pay-TV and PPV Formula E might soon get closer and closer in attendance figures.

 

I don't agree, F1 is not an acquired taste. What Bernie Ecclestone has done well, is push a brand name that everyone knows. I've yet to meet a single person that doesn't know what F1 is. People recognise it as a sport, and then tune in to watch it when they see it's on, because they see it as an important series. F1 has huge appeal to people who don't enjoy racing. That's interestingly how I got hooked on motorsport. I just knew F1 was a big sport, so watched a grand prix one day and got hooked on it.

 

The problem with Formula E right now, is that it's audience seems to be motorsport fans already. Families attend the races when it's in their city, but then don't watch the rest of the series on TV, they just go for the day out. It isn't really generating it's own audience.

 

You'd have a point if the racing in FE was processional - but it hasn't been. The racing perhaps usually isn't good on such circuits, but for Formula E the nature of the cars are allowing the racing to be good - it's providing both the challenge of street circuit racing and exciting action for the viewer.

 

Killing off traditional racing tracks would indeed be a disaster. Thankfully, that wasn't my suggestion for F1. Would FE circuits work for F1? Largely no. But if you compare the two series with F1 as the standard of measure, of course FE will lose out. Plus, if you don't want processions, F1 is not the series to look at - overtaking at Singapore is always at a premium, if not impossible.

 

Next year when the teams run different power trains, I'm sure it'll become more processional.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 12:52.

[GTRacer]

It's even available more freely than F1, online stream, mostly FTA TV, and at the minute the viewing figures have been very disappointing.

They have taken the rather concerning trend of decreasing rather than increasing as the season has gone on.... In the UK at least.

[Jordan44]

They have taken the rather concerning trend of decreasing rather than increasing as the season has gone on.... In the UK at least.

 

Exactly. Could the racing have been better this year? Probably not, it's been great. But if the viewing figures are declining despite such a strong start, I don't see how it's gonna grow 50 million viewers a season like Branson expects. The racing is only gonna decline in my opinion, when you move away from a spec series, one team is bound to come out stronger than the others and win all the time.

[Fatgadget]

Exactly. Could the racing have been better this year? Probably not, it's been great. But if the viewing figures are declining despite such a strong start, I don't see how it's gonna grow 50 million viewers a season like Branson expects. The racing is only gonna decline in my opinion, when you move away from a spec series, one team is bound to come out stronger than the others and win all the time.

Isn't that how it's always been in most forms of non-spec racing series?..Even in spec series.someone will do a better job than the rest.That's what its all about.Winner takes all.And watching how the technology morphs will be of interest to many no? And another salient point.The green credentials of leccy power. Gone are the days fossil powered racing cars welcome in metropolis.

Edited by Fatgadget, 28 June 2015 - 13:33.

[Jordan44]

Isn't that how it's always been in most forms of non-spec racing series?..Even in spec series.someone will do a better job than the rest.That's what its all about.Winner takes all.And watching how the technology morphs will be of interest to many no?

 

Of course, but it's about the margin that they win by. I'm saying I expect it to become more processional. Had a different winner in almost every Formula E race so far, that's not gonna stay as it is. I don't think fans care for the technology to be honest, they just want to see good racing. Different race, different winner is a great selling point for entertainment. It's what the fans are wanting in F1 right now.

Edited by J0rd4n, 28 June 2015 - 13:29.

[Jon83]

Not a chance.

 

I don't see the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg or Vettel ditching F1 for FE, which is at the moment full of journeymen type drivers.

[Jimisgod]

Formula E won't exist in 5 years, much less approach the populairty of F1.

 

I'd give FE a better chance of surviving the next 5 years than F1.

 

Most of the F1 grid is on borrowed time.

[Fatgadget]

I'm sure FE has learnt a lot from F1...How to divvy up the  revenue generated amongst the participating teams for starters!  ....Interesting times.

[bogi]

If they open up the rules and let people develop motors and batteries for more power and efficiency, (like formula one did in last 50 years). Maybe then they will be more popular than F1, but until then it will be gimmick racing spec series.

[chipmcdonald]

It's curious how people mix up syntactical logic with reality.  Electric cars are the future, that doesn't mean entertainment based around them automatically goes along with it.

 

F1 needs to decide on what constitutes a "car" and "racing" soon.   If it's electric they need to go all in and let it be unregulated, as F1 once was, until it gets to the state we find the IC motor side of things at.  Take away Formula E's promotion and I'm not sure there would be much to it at all.  On the other hand, if they were to go unregulated, and effectively be what F1 once was, F1 would really be in trouble.

 

It would appear that the Powers That Be are convinced that "entertainment" must be pre-packaged in very specific and controlled ways in order to be profitable.  It's safe that way.  

 

What is more likely to happen in the next 100 years is grass roots racing developed around what we have already had in the IC world: street cars modded to go racing in a wild and wooly, UNPREDICTABLE manner.  20 years out, presuming the globe escapes the financial collapse, solar technology will make it untenable to have a petrol industry as we know it.  Hopefully China will see fit to let us continue to have Formula One with electric technology, that we can drive to with our cars purchased from the local AliExpress-Mart.