1641 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Irvine would have had to brake, because there would have been no drag slowing him down. And that might have led to its own problems.

If anyone is to blame it is Brundle for staying on track when he had a problem.

Irvine should have braked then. That’s what you do to avoid an accident. And he’d have seen there was nobody behind him, because Verstappen was beside him.

[ensign14]

So, in other words, Irvine is slipstreaming a car with a view to overtaking, he has one moving beside him which is also taking his attention, when the car in front suddenly slows without warning, he moves sideways (probably braking) to avoid an accident, and because another driver can't control his car Irvine gets a 3 race ban.

 

While Magnussen drives like a cock for a decade and doesn't.

 

Sort of proves my point.

[PlatenGlass]

I agree with Ensign on Irvine. It was an instinctive move to avoid an accident. Not something you should be handing out bans for. It just so happened that a spectacular accident still happened.

[Bleu]

Also if you look at the 1994 race bans, they were for intentionally breaking the rules (Schumacher), an extremely reckless move that cause a multi-car crash (Irvine) and repeated collisions (Hakkinen).

 

I think there waere also multiple occasions where drivers were put on probation but managed to stay clean for next few races: Berger for his dangerous close call with Brundle after engine failure (Spa), Irvine for triggering start crash (Monza) and Brabham for taking lapping Alesi out (Estoril)  

[pacificquay]

Yeah, the suspended 1 race ban was the regular penalty that year.

[Myrvold]

Yeah, the suspended 1 race ban was the regular penalty that year.

 

Which arguably is a thing that should be brought back.

 

And the reason Irvine got 3 races was them appealing, and the FIA basically going "Oh, you guys wants us to do more work on this? Ok, 3 races then. Bye."

[PlatenGlass]

Which arguably is a thing that should be brought back.

And the reason Irvine got 3 races was them appealing, and the FIA basically going "Oh, you guys wants us to do more work on this? Ok, 3 races then. Bye."

Yeah and that was ridiculous. "How dare you question us?" Sign of a corrupt dictatorship.

[Myrvold]

Yeah and that was ridiculous. "How dare you question us?" Sign of a corrupt dictatorship.

 

Hah, it was very much "our words are final, case closed" yes. At the same time, the current FIA are at times too... easily swayed I think.

[NCB619]

Hah, it was very much "our words are final, case closed" yes. At the same time, the current FIA are at times too... easily swayed I think.

There was a recent example of this wasn’t there? A team appealing a penalty and getting slapped with something bigger?

[Wes350]

True, but the converse is you would have to define every possible combination of circumstances in the written rules, which is beyond the wit of man. I have no problem with the concept of stewards exercising discretion - it's what happens in any court of law. I also accept that some inconsistency in judgements is inevitable. The problem at the moment is that all four stewards seem to change for each race, and the extent of inconsistency is just too much.

 

This is a big issue...

 

There needs to be four Permanent race stewards.

 

And they should be collectively reviewing/evaluating their calls after every race to tighten up their standards, and increase ruling consistency.

[DS27]

There was a recent example of this wasn’t there? A team appealing a penalty and getting slapped with something bigger?

 

 

In 2-wheeled racing, there was Ianone appealing his drugs ban - that went well....

[ensign14]

So, in other words, Irvine is slipstreaming a car with a view to overtaking, he has one moving beside him which is also taking his attention, when the car in front suddenly slows without warning, he moves sideways (probably braking) to avoid an accident, and because another driver can't control his car Irvine gets a 3 race ban.

 

While Magnussen drives like a cock for a decade and doesn't.

 

I mean, I'm 10000000% right, aren't I?  That **** needs to be banned BECAUSE HE WILL ****ing LITERALLY KILL SOMEONE.

[KWSN - DSM]

1st lap racing incident, no driver should be given penalties because of penalties in previous races, Perez knew he was there, you could see him checking several times - Button went from all on Magnussen, to 'that surprise me a lot' back to 'racing incident'.

[ensign14]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

 

Utter cockwombles.

[speedyenrico]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

 

Utter cockwombles.

 

or solid calculated risk taking

[Diablobb81]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

Utter cockwombles.

At least it wasn't 25 points, like that other time.

[Brod]

or solid calculated risk taking

 

Yeah...but if that is solid calculated risk taking, then the math is wrong. And driver penalties and the steward system...the whole equation is flawed. There is a dire need of a change. 

[Anderis]

Yeah...but if that is solid calculated risk taking, then the math is wrong. And driver penalties and the steward system...the whole equation is flawed. There is a dire need of a change. 

The math is not wrong. When you cause 1 collision, you may get lucky and end up benefitting from it, but If you cause 100 collisions like that, you're definetely going to end up disadvantaged in the end. Statistically it's not beneficial to be involved in collisions in the long run but over 1 accident you may get lucky.

It's also pretty much impossible to design a penalty system that will ensure you end up worse off every time. There's always a possibility a driver will have enough advantage to offset even a very harsh penalty. Like even if you gave Verstappen a black flag today and a race ban for next race, there's still a chance he would end up losing less points to Norris this way than had he allowed to be overtaken by Norris. Penalties will never be able to fully account for randomness and luck.

 

Though, yes, there was nothing wrong with the old system of drive-throughs and stop&go, it was better than the 5 and 10 sec penalties of today, but then the drivers complained about harsh penalties and that they don't "let them race" so that's how we got here. But even with harsher penalties it's not possible to fully prevent the possibility of someone benefitting from causing a colision, unless you want to ban drivers for life for every collision.

[Myrvold]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

 

Utter cockwombles.

 

So, it should be a bigger penalty in a situation where a small touch gets a relatively large consequence, because of the championship standings? So if Norris just rams off Sargeant, it's not as bad?

[jonklug]

Drivers should be allowed to defend hard as long as there is no contact or the other driver isn't put in danger. That's what I'd like to see, I don't mind anyone defending on Verstappen the way he defended on Norris but the line should be contact. And that's why the penalty is warranted.

But whatever they decide to do, it should be applied equally irrespective of who did what and to whom.

[juicy sushi]

I find the triviality of handbags at dawn from Lando and Max a pretty pathetic argument when there was significantly worse driving unpunished by the stewards at the Spa 24 hours. Several drivers there should be banned from competition for a few months.

Edited by juicy sushi, 01 July 2024 - 02:29.

[MikeTekRacing]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

Utter cockwombles.

Last time around the bonus was 25 points. So an improvement

[southernstars]

I would be thoroughly fascinated to know what some of these people were saying about Silverstone, which was objectively a much worse crash with much worse implications for the title.

[ClubmanGT]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

 

Utter cockwombles.

 

Well, it was fine when LH shoved Sainz off in Spain. So I don't really envy the drivers trying to make sense when it is or isn't to expect another driver to just get out of your way. 

[ensign14]

So, it should be a bigger penalty in a situation where a small touch gets a relatively large consequence, because of the championship standings? So if Norris just rams off Sargeant, it's not as bad?

 

Literally cannot work out why you get that from what I said.  Especially given that just this May I was using this thread to castigate the non-penalty of Magnussen for punting Perez out.

 

I would be thoroughly fascinated to know what some of these people were saying about Silverstone, which was objectively a much worse crash with much worse implications for the title.

 

You can go and check out what I said about Verstappen spending the entire lap weaving all over the place.  It was steward cowardice to penalise Hamilton for Verstappen moving twice in the braking zone just because Verstappen got the worst of it.  But that's Verstappen all over.  THOU SHALT NEVER RACE ME.

[ensign14]

 

It's also pretty much impossible to design a penalty system that will ensure you end up worse off every time.

 

I've said it before.  Black flag from that race (penalty), one-race ban (deterrent).  

[MikeTekRacing]

Well, it was fine when LH shoved Sainz off in Spain. So I don't really envy the drivers trying to make sense when it is or isn't to expect another driver to just get out of your way.

Yeap. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Very known bias on this forum. Almost as bad as the sky team

[MikeTekRacing]

I would be thoroughly fascinated to know what some of these people were saying about Silverstone, which was objectively a much worse crash with much worse implications for the title.

Don’t you remember? It was Max who turned into Lewis, they argued for months that he should have just gone wider and Lewis made a statement that he won’t back off (by crashing his rival out).

[PayasYouRace]

I find the triviality of handbags at dawn from Lando and Max a pretty pathetic argument when there was significantly worse driving unpunished by the stewards at the Spa 24 hours. Several drivers there should be banned from competition for a few months.

Look over there, a distraction!

[BRG]

Verstappen-sized bump because apparently the penalty for punting your closest championship rival off - and then trying to shove him off while taking the racing line in a damaged car -- is to be given a bonus 7 points.

 

Utter cockwombles.

It was a bonus WC when Michael did it.

[7MGTEsup]

The thing that amused me the most in the situation on Sunday is how Sergio still finished behind Max even with Max driving 2/3 of a lap with a flat tyre, a pit stop and a 10 second penalty..... That's the real travesty of Sunday.

[ensign14]

Top 3 in the F2 championship are Hadjar, Bortoletto, Aron.

 

Aron starts the Monza feature race at the sharp end.

 

Is punted off at the first corner by Marti.

 

Who just happens to be Hadjar's team-mate.

 

Would I be harsh in suggesting that the penalty for that not only should be Marti being slung out of the championship in toto for being a cheating ****, but Hadjar also being black-flagged for his cheating **** of a team-mate?

 

No.  No, I would not be.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Top 3 in the F2 championship are Hadjar, Bortoletto, Aron.

 

Aron starts the Monza feature race at the sharp end.

 

Is punted off at the first corner by Marti.

 

Who just happens to be Hadjar's team-mate.

 

Would I be harsh in suggesting that the penalty for that not only should be Marti being slung out of the championship in toto for being a cheating ****, but Hadjar also being black-flagged for his cheating **** of a team-mate?

 

No.  No, I would not be.

People would be losing their s**t if it was F1, for sure. It seems to be accepted in F2 that it’s a bit crashy.

[DJH63]

Top 3 in the F2 championship are Hadjar, Bortoletto, Aron.

 

Aron starts the Monza feature race at the sharp end.

 

Is punted off at the first corner by Marti.

 

Who just happens to be Hadjar's team-mate.

 

Would I be harsh in suggesting that the penalty for that not only should be Marti being slung out of the championship in toto for being a cheating ****, but Hadjar also being black-flagged for his cheating **** of a team-mate?

 

No.  No, I would not be.

Did that happen in Budapest?

[ensign14]

Did that happen in Budapest?

No, Monza.

[DJH63]

No, Monza.

I think you missed the subtlety of a mention of the teammate of an F1 championship contender ‘snatching a brake’ and taking out his teammates competition which may or may not have happened a few years back in Budapest…

[ensign14]

Oh, you mean whataboutery.

[DJH63]

Oh, you mean whataboutery.

Not sure where the whataboutery is, in F1 the established penalty for punting out your championship rival is 10 seconds. The established penalty for punting out your teammates championship rival is 10 seconds.

 

Marti today in F2 got 10 seconds. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for.

[ensign14]

I'm arguing for more serious penalties.  The DTM did that sort of thing when Asch hit Abt to give Alzen the title.

[cjm321190]

Firstly as a Williams fan i am happy Albon beat K mag today. But as an F1 fan i am a bit peeved.

Why can not we ho back to Drive thrus and 10 sec stop go’s.

Then the stewards would have to have some balls.

Now if K-mag had got a race ban for monaco so be it. But F1 manipulated the results today.

If K mag was 4 seconds ahead he would have got a 5 sec penalty. But they waited and went oh give him a 10 second penalty.

If that had been Verstappen. Ooh good hard racing there .
F1 needs to stop this anti racing. DRS paswed are jot overtakes just a modern corporate BS sanitisation.

[Myrvold]

If K mag was 4 seconds ahead he would have got a 5 sec penalty. But they waited and went oh give him a 10 second penalty.

 

Uh? What?

He got the 10 second penalty even before he passed Albon...

[tyker]

Top 3 in the F2 championship are Hadjar, Bortoletto, Aron.

 

Aron starts the Monza feature race at the sharp end.

 

Is punted off at the first corner by Marti.

 

Who just happens to be Hadjar's team-mate.

 

Would I be harsh in suggesting that the penalty for that not only should be Marti being slung out of the championship in toto for being a cheating ****, but Hadjar also being black-flagged for his cheating **** of a team-mate?

 

No.  No, I would not be.

In F2 they are not really teammates they just drive for the same team, the drivers bring money to the teams they are not paid by the teams, conversely the last thing they would want is for their teammates to be more successful than them because it's then damaging for their own career, with Hadjar and Marti it's even worse because they are both Red Bull drivers so fighting for the same real estate in F1.

 

In respect to what Marti did unfortunately that's just standard to how poor he has been this year.