25 replies to this topic

[Victor_RO]

I'm rather curious about the story of this car. I can't seem to find too many details about this car apart from a single paragraph on Wikipedia in the disappointingly short review of the 1971 24 Hours of Le Mans. I am aware that the car went through some significant aero and engine changes compared to even the '71 512M, but the details I was able to find are extremely sketchy. So because of this I turn to the knowledge repository that is TNF to seek more information about this project.

 

Also, if the car still exists, does it still reside with Penske or is it in private hands nowadays?

[FLB]

It exists. Last I know, it's in Montreal, owned by Lawrence Stroll. He takes out to play from time to time at Mont-Tremblant.

 

I'm not on my regular computer, but I have at least a full roll of film of it (I know, I know) I've taken at Tremblant over the years.

Edited by FLB, 05 July 2015 - 00:31.

[D28]

It exists. Last I know, it's in Montreal, owned by Lawrence Stroll. He takes out to play from time to time at Mont-Tremblant.

 

I'm not on my regular computer, but I have at least a full roll of film of it (I know, I know) I've taken at Tremblant over the years.

Correct, I saw this car at a Shell Historic Ferrari meet at Mt Tremblant a few years ago and Stroll was driving it.

 

This famous Ferrari has been well documented and was reckoned to be the faster than the factory 512s. A simple Google search should bring up plenty of articles.

[raceannouncer2003]

Some info here:

 

http://www.barchetta...l/1040.512M.htm

 

Vince H.

[TecnoRacing]

There's quite alot of info on the Sunoco Ferrari straight from the horse's mouth in Unfair Advantage

[Ray Bell]

From page 195 of Mike Argetsinger's Mark Donohue - Technical Excellence at Speed there is some detail about it...

It also has a noted variance with Unfair Advantage.

I imagine there is also a little detail in the other Mike Argetsinger Donohue book. I just can't find it right now.

[jj2728]

The Penske 512 (IIRC) was chassis number 1040 that Jim Adams raced in the Can Am series in 1970.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that is correct...

It was a 512S, when Ferrari 'issued' the 512M mods the Kirk F White/Penske car already had mods beyond some of the factory stuff, but there were some parts they bought. And some of those weren't available in time for Daytona.

[Arjan de Roos]

Cavallino 84 and 85 have a very good article on #1040. Also about what Penske and his team thought when they received the car.

[63Corvette]

I believe that Travers and Coons (TraCo) built the (Ferrari) engine for Penske.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Without having a shred of solid evidence to back up the following, I recall reading in a contemporary US magazine that
Mark Donohue claimed that the 512 had bags of power and torque. He stated that it could 'yank the pants off a Formula A car.'

You may interpret that as you may.

[D28]

Mark Donohue devoted a chapter of The Unfair Advantage to the development of the 512M. He mentions that Traco observed 630 hp for the best Ferrari motor and that "it was impressively more than the 5 litre American V8s we were familiar with". This was also more than the factory engines were producing. The real unfair advantage came not from engine modifications, but from extensive chassis development, Donohue altered or modified every conceivable handling parameter; Penske even had a one-off body constructed with a unique wing.

I believe this was why it was the fastest 512 around. Ferrari did not support many of these modifications as Donohue notes, "They had their own way of doing things and they didn't want to know our way."   

 

In the end the Sunoco Ferrari never won anything, though it certainly was competitive in 4 of 5 races entered. Accidents at Daytona and Sebring were unfortunate setbacks. No other 512M won Manufacturers Championship races in 1971 either. Penske and Donohue tired of the seeming lukewarm attitude of Ferrari and were happy to go on to other projects. So the legacy of the Sunoco 512M is great potential that remained unrealized.

[AllTwelve]

I think the car had a solid rear axel, not limited slip.  Hobbs said you had to steer it with the right foot!  Was an advantage I believe.

 

AT

[Emery0323]

Mark Donohue devoted a chapter of The Unfair Advantage to the development of the 512M. He mentions that Traco observed 630 hp for the best Ferrari motor and that "it was impressively more than the 5 litre American V8s we were familiar with". This was also more than the factory engines were producing. The real unfair advantage came not from engine modifications, but from extensive chassis development, Donohue altered or modified every conceivable handling parameter; Penske even had a one-off body constructed with a unique wing.

I believe this was why it was the fastest 512 around. Ferrari did not support many of these modifications as Donohue notes, "They had their own way of doing things and they didn't want to know our way."   

 

In the end the Sunoco Ferrari never won anything, though it certainly was competitive in 4 of 5 races entered. Accidents at Daytona and Sebring were unfortunate setbacks. No other 512M won Manufacturers Championship races in 1971 either. Penske and Donohue tired of the seeming lukewarm attitude of Ferrari and were happy to go on to other projects. So the legacy of the Sunoco 512M is great potential that remained unrealized.

I recall reading in "The Unfair Advantage" that Donohue described how he tried to order new half-shafts from Ferrari, and they sent him  USED parts!  

It gives some insight into how unseriously Ferrari took customer-team support in those days.

[B Squared]

The late Michael Argetsinger's award-winning book; Mark Donohue Technical Excellence at Speed discusses the Penske/Donohue/Ferrari on pages 195, 199 to 203, 212 to 214, 216 and 217 to 219. Michael had access to all of Mark's tapes from when Mark was working on the Unfair Advantage, plus with interviews from players involved such as Kirk White and John Woodard there are quite a few aspects of the car discussed along with its development.  

[markmanroe]

Nice related video on "Petrolicious".  Video was posted on that site October, 2014.  I apologize for not being able to copy the link to this message.  

[Scuderia CC]

Nice related video on "Petrolicious".  Video was posted on that site October, 2014.  I apologize for not being able to copy the link to this message.  

 

Here the link of this great video for this equally stunning Ferrari :

 

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Thanks for posting that video, Scuderia CC. Delicious!

The thought has just occurred to me that, in wringing superior performance from this car compared to works efforts, perhaps this was a factor
in Porsche approaching Penske to run the 917/10 in 1972 CanAm series? Nothing succeeds like success!

[Paul Parker]

Here the link of this great video for this equally stunning Ferrari :

 

 

It is above all else that sound, takes me right back to the Goodwood TTs of 1962/63/64, wonderful and so evocative.

[Dave Ware]

Tony Adamowicz has some interesting things to say about the Penske Ferrari on this page of his website:

 

http://a2zracer.com/page48.html

 

His entire six pages on his '71 Le Mans race with NART are well worth reading.  (And obviously, his entire site is well worth reading.)

[Eaglenindy]

Mark Donohue, due to his driving style preferred a locked (locker or spool) axle or transaxle.  He liked to power slide out of slow and mid speed range corners.  The 512M used half shafts and a gearbox not a solid rear axle

[Sisyphus]

What circuit was the Hobbs 512M video shot at? 

[Jack-the-Lad]

What circuit was the Hobbs 512M video shot at?

probably Mont Tremblant. I believe the owner of the car owns the circuit.

[JacnGille]

probably Mont Tremblant. I believe the owner of the car owns the circuit.

Looks like it to me.

[D28]

I recall reading in "The Unfair Advantage" that Donohue described how he tried to order new half-shafts from Ferrari, and they sent him  USED parts!  

It gives some insight into how unseriously Ferrari took customer-team support in those days.

Yes that seems to have been the case. Ferrari wished privateers to run well, but not so fast that they threatened the factory cars. Penske and Donohue would also be well down the pecking order with established client teams like NART and Ecurie Francorchamps, and their treatment was probably not significantly different from Penske's. If the car had won Daytona, it would have been highlighted  as a Sunoco  Penske-White effort. Ferrari would have garnered the points, but the win would not be as satisfactory as works effort. As I said above, Ferrari won no major endurance races in 71, but they well could have. 

[Alan Baker]

Yes that seems to have been the case. Ferrari wished privateers to run well, but not so fast that they threatened the factory cars. Penske and Donohue would also be well down the pecking order with established client teams like NART and Ecurie Francorchamps, and their treatment was probably not significantly different from Penske's. If the car had won Daytona, it would have been highlighted  as a Sunoco  Penske-White effort. Ferrari would have garnered the points, but the win would not be as satisfactory as works effort. As I said above, Ferrari won no major endurance races in 71, but they well could have. 

Ferrari did not run works 512Ms in 1971. They concentrated on developing the 312PB ahead of a full scale effort the following year. I doubt that Ferrari had any confidence in it's privateers being able to make any headway against what were effectively two works Porsche teams, so was probably not much interested in their efforts.with a car that had no future beyond the end of the year.